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Time For A New Coach? (and other musings on what has gone wrong)

View Poll Results: who should it be?
Keep Paul Maurice 34 56.67%
Willie Desjardins 2 3.33%
Tom Rowe 5 8.33%
Kevin Dineen 3 5.00%
Scott Arniel 0 0%
Don Hay 1 1.67%
Ulf Samuelsson 1 1.67%
Ron Francis 5 8.33%
Peter Laviolette 7 11.67%
Other (please state coach) 2 3.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-23-2009, 08:18 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eerodynamic View Post
Interesting how SLAP
You're the one who put words in my mouth--which is a personal issue last I checked.

Thank you for playing, I accept your surrender.

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Old
10-24-2009, 01:23 PM
  #27
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Why do people think Ron Francis would be a good replacement? He has a whole 2/3 of a year of coaching experience. Supposedly this year he is in charge of the power play and mentoring the forwards. What's the worst part of the team this year? THE POWERPLAY!!! And the forwards sure don't seem like they have seen the benefit of too much mentoring.

Star players almost NEVER make good coaches. I am very close to jumping on the Mo Must Go bandwagon, but I would rather see Mo stay than replace him with Francis.

No Jeff Daniels on the list?

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Old
10-24-2009, 10:20 PM
  #28
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Sorry. Done with the excuses. He was fired once for a reason and it's here again. You can't get dominated by the two worst teams in hockey on this road trip and think Mo isn't a major problem.

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Old
10-24-2009, 10:22 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
Sorry. Done with the excuses. He was fired once for a reason and it's here again. You can't get dominated by the two worst teams in hockey on this road trip and think Mo isn't a major problem.
I'm starting to feel this way as well. It didn't work out before, but Rutherford has a habit of bringing back people (players and coaches, apparently) who were in the system before but were moved for one reason or another.

Great, now I'm reminded of David Tanabe.

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Old
10-24-2009, 10:27 PM
  #30
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Even if we were to stink it up for the rest of the season and be in place for a top 5-10 pick, I doubt Jimmy tosses Maurice to the roadside. Especially since he's got 2 years remaining after this one. I believe Maurice will have this season and if he cannot cut it next season by approx. half way through, than I could see us 'moving Maurice to another position within the organization', if you will. One thing is certain for me and that is JR will give Maurice a long leash. It's actually going to be interesting because if we do poorly this season we're in for a group of UFA's to move on and bring some youngsters up. What does JR do in terms of player acquisitions to compliment whats already on the roster along with the kids? It will be interesting to see where Jimmy goes with this. One thing is certain, he's got his work cut out for him. Or should anyway. Of course, he'll likely just add the kids and hope all becomes well again.


Last edited by Guerzy: 10-24-2009 at 10:36 PM.
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Old
10-25-2009, 06:54 AM
  #31
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Yeah, JRs lack of vision to get Staal a playmaker is inexcusable... They give $3 mil to a diminishing Cole instead of dumping $5-6 mil into a great winger... I would rather have seen us get a star winger and bring up one of the youngsters right now then have Ruutu and Cole on the team... My major issue with JR is his inability to look at the big picture in his offseason moves.. Each move he makes usually makes sense individually, but rarely make sense when pieced together.. This team had obvious major issues up front on last years team and some changes were necessary, but instead, he bolsters a 4th line that Mo rarely uses and resigns everyone... I thought it was VERY important to mix it up a little and we stayed stagnant...

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Old
10-25-2009, 08:42 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
Yeah, JRs lack of vision to get Staal a playmaker is inexcusable...
This question gets asked all the time but I think it misses the real issue. When does a first line, franchise center need a playmaker? When your franchise center isn't really a center.

The cry is usually to find a finisher on the wing. Staal continues to focus on one aspect of his offensive game, shooting, and he has regressed in a major way in terms of playmaking, which was never great anyway. He isn't even an effective passer in practice drills and he sure doesn't spend time on it.

True, he hasn't been 100% but his anemic one assist is just horrible for a first line center who gets the minutes he does. Move him to the wing already and he can shoot until his heart is content. I'm hard pressed to think of another top-end, first-line center who needs a playmaker vs. a finisher.

The Canes have brought in guys like Stillman, Whitney and Recchi (moved to Staal's line in the playoffs) as playmaking wings and he always seem to require a power forward for him to create space. When does Staal elevate his game and make others around him better which top flight centers should?

I say get a decent center and let Staal become the finisher from LW. That's much easier than the revolving wing strategy that is used to help balance his weaknesses. To me it's inexcusable for the organization to try and build around a guy who isn't playing a position best-suited to his game.

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Old
10-25-2009, 09:28 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
This question gets asked all the time but I think it misses the real issue. When does a first line, franchise center need a playmaker? When your franchise center isn't really a center.

It seems that way when your first line center scores 40 goals. But it isn't correct.

The cry is usually to find a finisher on the wing. Staal continues to focus on one aspect of his offensive game, shooting, and he has regressed in a major way in terms of playmaking, which was never great anyway. He isn't even an effective passer in practice drills and he sure doesn't spend time on it.

Nope. Staal would be darn close to leading the league in points with a star winger. He looks unreal in the allstar games playing beside studs and he's going to look fantastic in the Olympics. Staal is shooting becaue he is our only goal scorer. Shane Doan would be a great player to park beside Staal. Look at Getzlaf playing beside Perry. Same thing.



True, he hasn't been 100% but his anemic one assist is just horrible for a first line center who gets the minutes he does. Move him to the wing already and he can shoot until his heart is content. I'm hard pressed to think of another top-end, first-line center who needs a playmaker vs. a finisher.

Team failure and pressure is killing him. It's obvious. I agree, moving him to the wing makes sense if they aren't going to give him someone to play with. Stick Cullen on the first line anmd watch the excitement.


The Canes have brought in guys like Stillman, Whitney and Recchi (moved to Staal's line in the playoffs) as playmaking wings and he always seem to require a power forward for him to create space. When does Staal elevate his game and make others around him better which top flight centers should?

Playmaking wing for a center? That is against the Laws of first line center 101. He needs finishing wingers to go with the 35-40 goals he will chip in on his own. He has had a 100 point seasons when A). Justin Williams was a healthy FINISHER and Cole was the same minus health. Eric can't elevate his game enough to make the players around him better. Malkin would struggle.

I say get a decent center and let Staal become the finisher from LW. That's much easier than the revolving wing strategy that is used to help balance his weaknesses. To me it's inexcusable for the organization to try and build around a guy who isn't playing a position best-suited to his game.

wow.


TTT.

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Old
10-25-2009, 10:12 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by QuitStaaling View Post
It seems that way when your first line center scores 40 goals. But it isn't correct.

Nope. Staal would be darn close to leading the league in points with a star winger. He looks unreal in the allstar games playing beside studs and he's going to look fantastic in the Olympics. Staal is shooting becaue he is our only goal scorer. Shane Doan would be a great player to park beside Staal. Look at Getzlaf playing beside Perry. Same thing.

Team failure and pressure is killing him. It's obvious. I agree, moving him to the wing makes sense if they aren't going to give him someone to play with. Stick Cullen on the first line anmd watch the excitement.

Playmaking wing for a center? That is against the Laws of first line center 101. He needs finishing wingers to go with the 35-40 goals he will chip in on his own. He has had a 100 point seasons when A). Justin Williams was a healthy FINISHER and Cole was the same minus health. Eric can't elevate his game enough to make the players around him better. Malkin would struggle.
All-Star games are no-defense affairs and are an irrelevant point of reference. The truth is that Staal, with or without star wingers, is not a good enough puck-handler to create consistently. He has always needed wings to set him up and that's just backwards. Getzlaf is far superior as a playmaker to Staal.

Williams didn't play on Staal's line that year he was on Brindy's line. Staal had Cole (and then a revolving group of wings) and Stillman on his line. Malkin would not struggle with Staal's typical linemates because he can skate with the puck, create scoring chances for others, has great ice-vision and can thread a pass routinely that Staal can only do occasionally. Plus look at who Malkin typically centers, hardly elite level players and more journeyman types (a case can be made they aren't on with Staal's usual wingers) with the likes of Fedetenko yet he racks up the points.

Given his role and his position, Staal needs to make others better. I don't see it in his game and that's why he is better suited to play a Rick Nash type role. Playing LW is far less taxing than playing C and he would thrive there with someone else down the middle. My point is that Staal is definitely a first-line talent but not at center.


Last edited by StormCast: 10-25-2009 at 10:19 AM.
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Old
10-25-2009, 11:28 AM
  #35
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I see several things I agree with here.

I think it is too early right now.

I think we will eventually have to send Mo packing yet again, and that it was always only a matter of time. He did serve a purpose at the time, and I thank him in part for last year's run.

I also agree that if you have a team where more than one coach over time is starting to lose the room, the team needs to look themselves in the mirror and ask if they aren't a big part of the problem too. I don't know if that is where we are, but sometimes it feels like it.

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Old
10-25-2009, 12:44 PM
  #36
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interesting discussion.

i agree staal may lack the skills to be a top no1 center. he has limited passing skill, no stickhandling, slow release and not a very creative mind. he is a beast down low and uses his reach impressively to turn down low possessions into scoring opportunities, but there isnt a lot else there. i agree that he should be making his wings better instead of the other way around, and i think he is overpaid and will strain under the burden of the contract.

still, it is what it is, we dont have better for the role and have to make do. we'll watch him at wing in the olympic before i would ever say he is "better off" there. i do think he needs a cohort he clicks with, but i think he has slipped from the kid who lead us in scoring to the cup. i watched briefly the sabres/canes series last night on nhl network and staal looks like a different player then. quicker, more decisive, confident and just more effective. its like he is sliding down the backside of his career at times like all his accomplishments are done....what is he 26? maybe too much success early? i dont know. i was at the avs game the other night, and i watched the replay at home and he was much more visible on tv, live i barely noticed him other than him getting tossed like a pee wee for not getting his way. to be fair the goalie interference call was crap.

we've hooked the carriage to this horse, and it looks like we may need more horses at times.

francis as coach? not now, not ever. he is a head office, asst coach, player development, work with the kids guy period. he has nothing about his persona ever that said head coach. he isnt an in your face guy, he has never been vocal. hes a thinker, and someone who can pull you aside and show you some things - thats not a head coaches job. poor, poor choice. and the most likely unfortunately.

hate to be a broken record but how about a new gm along with a new coach? this is the third time jr has welcomed success with following it up with more of the same, older instead of younger, well travelled vets squeeking out another paycheck and going with what has been done before instead of new ground when it was questionable how well what happened before actually worked. his handling of the teams after 2002 and 2006 was piss poor and imo short sighted - and he has created the oldest and one of the slower teams in the league intentionally when the best teams in the league are young and fast. this may work grinding it out in the playoffs, but you have to make the playoffs first.

i like his hard lining to get larose and jokinen back for cheap, and resigning cole for less than he was making, but you should be judged on the final product which to me is awful win or lose right now. we suck to watch even when we win. watching this team in person was embarrassing sat night. we dont pass well, our d is soft and brainless up top with pitts/corvo. pitts has no heart whatsoever. no continuity or flow - in a word chemistry. you cant play grinding check hockey with ruutu, jokinen, sammy, whitney and the like playing big roles. we should be a puck possesion offensive team based on the lineup.

again im a broken record but i would embrace drastic change in philosophy and personnel. we could totally change this season around as is, but it wont be very fun to watch to me. mo's teams are boring.

i voted for dineen. only a matter of time till he is in the bigs and he has always been the anti francis.


Last edited by bleedgreen: 10-25-2009 at 12:49 PM.
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Old
10-25-2009, 02:32 PM
  #37
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there has never been a reason for Staal to progress in regards to playmaking and creativity.... he doesnt play with nayone that can finish. Imagine Joe Thornton's numbers if he was playing with Whitney and Cole......or Ruutu and Cole.... or Whitney and freakin Larose. Jumbo Joe wouldnt even sniff 80 points with those guys. Eric is doing the only thing he can with the wingers he has been provided.

If it were me id keep
? - Staal - ?
Ruutu - ? - ?
Larose - ? - ?
Kostopolous - ? - Walker

Pitkanen - ?
Gleason - ?
Alberts - ?

Deal the rest away even if it was for a bag of pucks. Then next season fill the rest in with a couple top tier UFAs(1st line winger and 2nd line center) and kids and let the rebuilding begin.


Last edited by faulkingdynamic: 10-25-2009 at 02:38 PM.
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Old
10-25-2009, 02:51 PM
  #38
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id keep
ruutu-staal-jokinen
- - cole
- - larose
- - kotso

gleason-pitts
alberts-

ward

similar except yokes and cole. i dont want that first line together as such i dont think.

bring up carson, boychuk, sutter, id give chaput a chance.

weve been thinking of boychuk as a winger, id love to see him as a center derek roy style. once he gets used to speed of play i think he is wasted on the wall - give him space. id love to see us go after a no 2 center, but it wouldnt surprise me if the wheels come off sutter being forced to be a 2nd center for us.

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Old
10-25-2009, 02:56 PM
  #39
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I'm not sure this team will try to make some moves but if i bet 20 $ first player who will come in Raleigh is... Cory Stillman.

Like i said many time, i don't want see Corvo, Whitney, Wallin, Yelle in this team next season. Maybe Walker and Cullen but Walker if continues to play like this, he just deserves to play one another year in team. Cullen ... i don't know

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Old
10-25-2009, 04:44 PM
  #40
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Jumbo Joe wouldnt even sniff 80 points with those guys.
I'm gonna have to disagree here. Joe Thornton was directly responsible for Jonathan Cheechoo scoring 56 goals and winning the Rocket Richard.

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Old
10-25-2009, 05:00 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Williams didn't play on Staal's line that year he was on Brindy's line. Staal had Cole (and then a revolving group of wings) and Stillman on his line. Malkin would not struggle with Staal's typical linemates because he can skate with the puck, create scoring chances for others, has great ice-vision and can thread a pass routinely that Staal can only do occasionally. Plus look at who Malkin typically centers, hardly elite level players and more journeyman types (a case can be made they aren't on with Staal's usual wingers) with the likes of Fedetenko yet he racks up the points.
Using Malkin as an example is sort of crazy. Malkin is a freak of nature, and he's on the ice with Crosby quite a bit over the course of a game.

I don't know that any other center that is mentioned as "elite" plays with less and puts up better numbers for goals or assists.

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10-25-2009, 07:37 PM
  #42
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I'm going to agree that Staal needs to be moved to the wing. He's not that great at faceoffs, he doesn't play like a center (behind the net, for instance), and as stated, he's a much better shooter than passer.

It might be easier to find a playmaking center than a playmaking winger. For instance, I understand Boston might be pushing the cap, and a certain perennial 50 assist center could be brought in.

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10-25-2009, 08:47 PM
  #43
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I'm gonna have to disagree here. Joe Thornton was directly responsible for Jonathan Cheechoo scoring 56 goals and winning the Rocket Richard.
yes you are right he was.....but cheechoo by his nature is a hang around the net and hammer the puck guy. He was always a finsher going back to junior. None of those Canes i mentioned are those type players.......and if he was directly responsible for the 56 then i assume he was also directly responsible for the 37, 23, and 12 that followed. Joe certainly wasnt responsible for the 111 goals Cheech scored in 3 seasons of junior...and im pretty sure you arent going to compare Justin Papineau to Thornton. I stand by my assertion, Joe is a 60-70 point guy if he is playing with Staal's wingers

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10-25-2009, 08:58 PM
  #44
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Junior? Chad LaRose scored 111 goals in 3 seasons of junior as well.

Now, I agree that Staal needs better wingers, so I'm with you on that one. I guess what I am more arguing about here is the skill of Joe Thornton vs. Eric Staal. The last couple of seasons in San Jose Cheechoo was not on Thornton's line near as much. Devon Setoguchi seems to have grown into replacing him. It's only been 9 games, but what has Cheechoo done this year in Ottawa? Well, he hasn't scored a single goal. I think Tuomo Ruutu or Ray Whitney could score 40 goals playing a season on the wing of Joe Thornton.


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Old
10-25-2009, 09:04 PM
  #45
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God... put Larose on Joe wing... and he will score 30 goals.
Jumbo is still the best playmaker in league i don't give a **** what people says for Getzlaf.

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10-25-2009, 09:37 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caniacho View Post
God... put Larose on Joe wing... and he will score 30 goals.
Jumbo is still the best playmaker in league i don't give a **** what people says for Getzlaf.
The best???? oh come one, but then again, you said Cullen was an ideal 2nd line center.

I'd say Malkin, Crosby a way, way better than Joe... Backstrom is going to be a better playmaker than Thornton too.

Getzlaf, meh, i don't care much about Getzlaf either.

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10-25-2009, 09:45 PM
  #47
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Nevermind. I totally forgot for Malkin and Crosby but i still think Thornton is top playmaker.

http://www.forecaster.ca/demos/hockey/player.cgi?3543
ON PACE 82 24 8 32

What a season

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10-25-2009, 09:54 PM
  #48
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I'll be in the minority but I put Joe over malkin as a playmaker. I think malkin is over rated as a playmaker, he doesn't have the vision joe or syd possess. I see him make dumb decisions all game, but he makes such skill plays that eventually work it's not really noted. I would Joe as still the best playmaker over Crosby and backstrom. Vision, creativity, softness of passes, intuitive, and doing it with a stick standing taller than other of those two.

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10-26-2009, 08:00 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleCooper View Post
Junior? Chad LaRose scored 111 goals in 3 seasons of junior as well.

Now, I agree that Staal needs better wingers, so I'm with you on that one. I guess what I am more arguing about here is the skill of Joe Thornton vs. Eric Staal. The last couple of seasons in San Jose Cheechoo was not on Thornton's line near as much. Devon Setoguchi seems to have grown into replacing him. It's only been 9 games, but what has Cheechoo done this year in Ottawa? Well, he hasn't scored a single goal. I think Tuomo Ruutu or Ray Whitney could score 40 goals playing a season on the wing of Joe Thornton.
Cmon compare those 3 seasons of Larose and Cheechoo honestly. Cheech scored 30+ all three years and was never below 76 points. Chad only exceeded that point total in the crazy 61 goal year....and his 111 goals looks alot less like a trend when 61 of them were in 1 season. There is almost a 50 point difference in points scored between the two. And Gooch only really ate into Cheechoo's time with Joe last season and a little the season before...that said Cheechoo wasnt pulled off the Joe line until the struggles were well into their 2nd season.....so its not like Setoguchi stole his job. Joe is a 20 goal guy.......you reallly think he could rack up 60+ assists with Cole and Ruutu/Larose? Of course i guess if we do think that is the case then JR is really screwing Staal...and Ruutu who could be a 35-40 goal scorer with a legit playmaker. Which is really making the case that JR's lack of 1st line work is costing this team between 20 and 30 goals a season...yikes

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10-26-2009, 08:05 AM
  #50
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Using Malkin as an example is sort of crazy. Malkin is a freak of nature, and he's on the ice with Crosby quite a bit over the course of a game.

I don't know that any other center that is mentioned as "elite" plays with less and puts up better numbers for goals or assists.
Maybe Malkin isn't the best example but I didn't bring him up, I just responded to his use as a reference point by the other poster.

There needs to be balance when it comes to Staal and his wings. They could be better no question but he has to do his part to make them better but that is usually left out of the equation. His assist totals are abysmal and have been for some time now given his TOI and beyond that he rarely even looks to set up his wings. What other team is constantly trying to find both a power forward and playmaking wing to complement its franchise center? I can't think of one and I think Staal gets a free pass (no pun intended) to an extent.

Go to practice and watch him. I don't see him putting in the effort in all phases of his game. Maybe he is trying too hard to justify his contract but sometimes you make it easier on yourself to score goals (his clearly priority) by first trying to set up others. Just watch how team defend him now, the word is out that he isn't going to pass.

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