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Time For A New Coach? (and other musings on what has gone wrong)

View Poll Results: who should it be?
Keep Paul Maurice 34 56.67%
Willie Desjardins 2 3.33%
Tom Rowe 5 8.33%
Kevin Dineen 3 5.00%
Scott Arniel 0 0%
Don Hay 1 1.67%
Ulf Samuelsson 1 1.67%
Ron Francis 5 8.33%
Peter Laviolette 7 11.67%
Other (please state coach) 2 3.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-26-2009, 11:06 PM
  #76
DoomMF
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Originally Posted by canesnecu View Post
I disagree. I dont want most of the kids up here yet. Im sure Ill get flamed for going against the popular opinion here as always but I think kids like Boychuk are gonna get pushed around bad up here. If we're heading into a true rebuild, I hope jr does it right and holds on to his assetts till the trade deadline where they'll be worth the most. then after some the kids have had almost a full pro year would I pull up some of them to see what they got at the NHL level. JR has rushed other prospects to soon and Ill bet he's learned his lessons. If you sell too early you wont get full value and lets be real, we have some aging vets who were great in their prime but how much are they really worth now?
Agreed. i don't think it's time to have a firesale yet. I would wait a bit to see if the magic happens again (it probably won't). I wouldn't object to giving some of the young guys their 9 games up here just for the exposure though.

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Old
10-26-2009, 11:58 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by canesnecu View Post
I disagree. I dont want most of the kids up here yet. Im sure Ill get flamed for going against the popular opinion here as always but I think kids like Boychuk are gonna get pushed around bad up here. If we're heading into a true rebuild, I hope jr does it right and holds on to his assetts till the trade deadline where they'll be worth the most. then after some the kids have had almost a full pro year would I pull up some of them to see what they got at the NHL level. JR has rushed other prospects to soon and Ill bet he's learned his lessons. If you sell too early you wont get full value and lets be real, we have some aging vets who were great in their prime but how much are they really worth now?


I actually think you mean you agree. Or maybe I should have been clearer in my post. Anyways, I very much think that now is not the time to sell off everyone. WHEN it becomes clear we are not making the playoffs, we need to dump what we can. Trying valiantly to scrap and claw our way into the 8th seed with this group isn't something I'm interested in. If we can turn our season around and play a team game with this group, I don't mind keeping them. Like you stated, selling now is pointless.

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Old
10-27-2009, 01:27 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Kaberlay View Post
10 games in
And we already lost to the 2 worst teams in the league not named the Canes or the Leafs

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10-27-2009, 01:52 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
And we already lost to the 2 worst teams in the league not named the Canes or the Leafs
Not to mention our cracker jack offense has been shutout twice already.

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10-27-2009, 08:26 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by DoomMF View Post
I think it does make a tremendous difference who your wingers are, and it seems sort of absurd to just throw up your hands and blame the elite center for not turning garbage into gold.

Why bother surrounding Thornton, etc....with all that talent if it doesn't make a HUGE difference who they play with because they can elevate anyone's game? Sure, they can, and do all the time, but give Thornton Larose, and the rest and sooner or later he's going to struggle and probably start overcompensating and shooting more himself.

Again, I think there is some validity to the case you're making, but I also think Staal is playing in a pretty poor situation here.
Who said that? In two different posts, I cited balance - both Staal and his wings need to be better. The only garbage player he has played with is LaRose who was no business being there.

But let's move away from the theoretical and look at reality. It isn't a case of Staal making great passes that don't find the back of the net. It's the fact that he has one gear and it's straight ahead, always looking to shoot. We all know he isn't great as a puck-handler but when is the last time he consistently drove down the middle saw the D and circled back to buy time and looked for an open winger? He almost never does that. He often gets his shot blocked or deflected off a stick because there is no creativity or finesse. Or drag and hold for a better angle vs. just firing? Rarely.

When he had his 100 point year it was Stillman and Cole for much of the year. Two good but hardly prototypical first-line guys for his wings. Aside from the "new NHL" transition, he played a different style of game then and it elevated the play of those guys. Whitney is a very similar player to Stillman offensively and Ruutu, though without the same speed, provides a similar power forward presence and wicked forechecking. Staal is a few years older but seems, maybe it's because of the contract, to have shrunken rather expanded his game.

Again that isn't to lay the blame entirely on him but it is convenient excuse-making for him, IMO, to act as if he is doing his job as a playmaker and the wings aren't good enough or can't finish. Last year he had 35 assists which is pretty weak when you consider his TOI. In the playoffs, it was 5 assists in 15 games and this year, it's 1 assist in 10 games. The stats don't make the argument but they do support my contention that if you think about the way he plays, it isn't a surprise. Look at his total shot count over the last few years too and you will see an undeniable trend.

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Originally Posted by ikani87 View Post
Not to mention our cracker jack offense has been shutout twice already.
That and the 4-5 times where they have let in back-to-back goals over a very short period of time which turned close games. For example, in the Philly, Bolts, Avs (twice), and Isles games which netted them just 2 points. Hard to put a finger on it but to me it seems a lack of confidence. A goal, a bit of deflation and another goal right away.

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Old
10-27-2009, 09:18 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
But let's move away from the theoretical and look at reality. It isn't a case of Staal making great passes that don't find the back of the net. It's the fact that he has one gear and it's straight ahead, always looking to shoot. We all know he isn't great as a puck-handler but when is the last time he consistently drove down the middle saw the D and circled back to buy time and looked for an open winger? He almost never does that. He often gets his shot blocked or deflected off a stick because there is no creativity or finesse. Or drag and hold for a better angle vs. just firing? Rarely.

When he had his 100 point year it was Stillman and Cole for much of the year. Two good but hardly prototypical first-line guys for his wings. Aside from the "new NHL" transition, he played a different style of game then and it elevated the play of those guys. Whitney is a very similar player to Stillman offensively and Ruutu, though without the same speed, provides a similar power forward presence and wicked forechecking. Staal is a few years older but seems, maybe it's because of the contract, to have shrunken rather expanded his game.
And how many times have we seen Staal cross the blueline ALONE and had to take the shot because he was being defended by 2-3 guys. I notice this way too often cause I'm always beatching about it. He comes into the zone alone all the time cause his mates can't keep up. This is why I think he plays much better with Cole alongside him. Cole isn't a legit top line winger, but he can keep up with him and because Cole is a power forward he usually draws both defenders to him, opening the ice for Staal.

As for the year after the lockout he wasn't a marked man like he is now. Not to mention the new rules that teams were getting adjusted to. For whatever reason the team then thrived on the no clutch/grab, which has now made its way back into the game.

Teams know that if you shut down Staal, you shut down the Canes. Its not like Pittsburgh where if you shut down Crosby, you still have Malkin and J.Staal to contend with. Or Washington, if you shut down Ovie you still got Semin and Backstrom. Who do we have after Staal? No one.

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Old
10-27-2009, 12:14 PM
  #82
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http://blogs.newsobserver.com/canes/...e-a-difference

"He has Eric Staal on the point on the power play."

Finally .

I will be happy if Sutter got some PP minutes.

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10-27-2009, 12:26 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
And how many times have we seen Staal cross the blueline ALONE and had to take the shot because he was being defended by 2-3 guys. I notice this way too often cause I'm always beatching about it. He comes into the zone alone all the time cause his mates can't keep up. This is why I think he plays much better with Cole alongside him. Cole isn't a legit top line winger, but he can keep up with him and because Cole is a power forward he usually draws both defenders to him, opening the ice for Staal.
That's part of my point though. You have to recognize the situation and react accordingly. He doesn't have to take that shot but rather read the situation and peel off to wait for other forwards. That is a big part of playmaking he simply lacks.

Stillman's average speed was never issue in holding him back and Whitney doesn't either. Cole is faster than Ruutu but often it was Cole charging down the right side on his own after getting the puck in the neutral zone.

As I've said, it's not all on Staal but the "he doesn't have wings who can finish" or "he is too fast for his wings" are self-serving defenses of Staal, IMO, that overlook his deficiencies. I really like him as a sniper but without the rest of the overall game, he is just ill-suited to me to play center on the first line. The fact that the Canes always are in search of playmaking wing vs. a sniping wing speaks volumes.

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10-27-2009, 02:45 PM
  #84
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taking keys from the 100 point season is pointless IMO. That hockey environment doesnt exist now, and frankly it didnt even exist the following season. All those guys on that line could do alot of different things that they cant do now because for 1 season it was basically no contact hockey. Noone paid the price in front, noone had to fight for position in the slot, offensive zone entry was an automatic, and offensive zone possesion was almost guaranteed unless you just passed to the other team. I guess what im saying is that for 1 season, the game lended itself to non-pure scorers scoring. Those days are done , you need legit finishers and 1st liners to make things run. Staal needs a legit 35-40 goal guy beside him unless the team is willing to play Jacques Lemaire hockey and being the lower of the league in offense is okay.

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10-27-2009, 03:09 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by eerodynamic View Post
taking keys from the 100 point season is pointless IMO. That hockey environment doesnt exist now, and frankly it didnt even exist the following season. All those guys on that line could do alot of different things that they cant do now because for 1 season it was basically no contact hockey. Noone paid the price in front, noone had to fight for position in the slot, offensive zone entry was an automatic, and offensive zone possesion was almost guaranteed unless you just passed to the other team. I guess what im saying is that for 1 season, the game lended itself to non-pure scorers scoring. Those days are done , you need legit finishers and 1st liners to make things run. Staal needs a legit 35-40 goal guy beside him unless the team is willing to play Jacques Lemaire hockey and being the lower of the league in offense is okay.
In part that's true about 05-06 but in reference to the comment about Staal outskating his wingers across the blueline, it's very valid.

So your point begs a question though. What and who is a legit 35-40 goal scorer? A guy like Kovalchuk is but he can create his own shot while a guy like Heatley needs to be set-up more so. Guys like Kovalchuk are few and far between so someone who can put up those numbers need to given the puck consistently in high-quality scoring areas. That's means a playmaker, which Staal simply isn't IMO. That's the conundrum unless he becomes the 35-40 goal scorer at wing, which I think he is without question.

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Old
10-27-2009, 04:20 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caniacho View Post
I will be happy if Sutter got some PP minutes.
Why, exactly?

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10-27-2009, 05:21 PM
  #87
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Why, exactly?
Why not? What is the problem with this? Why JR brings him? Just to play 8-10 minutes on night? I don't see problem to make some experiments and give kid PP minutes. Our PP is absolutely pathethic, we needs something new i think. I'm not say he should play 5 minutes PP time on game on first unit. Will be nice to see something different, some young stud take some opportunity.

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10-27-2009, 10:29 PM
  #88
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If our PP continues to suck, I don't care who we see on it. It can't get much worse.

That said, I still haven't seen enough offensive game from Sutter to put in on the PP. But like I said if it continues to suck, everyone should get their chance.

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10-28-2009, 07:26 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by caniacho View Post
Why not? What is the problem with this? Why JR brings him? Just to play 8-10 minutes on night? I don't see problem to make some experiments and give kid PP minutes. Our PP is absolutely pathethic, we needs something new i think. I'm not say he should play 5 minutes PP time on game on first unit. Will be nice to see something different, some young stud take some opportunity.
If you think Sutter was drafted to play on the powerplay then you don't know much about him. He's not really a player who's going to put up good numbers at this level. Fairly solid, yes, but not good or great. Sure, if the pp keeps sucking give him a shot. It can't be any worse than what we've got out there. But Sutter is not really that kind of player. That's why I asked why you wanted him on the pp. He doesn't really have the skills of a pp guy.

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10-30-2009, 11:47 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Cardiac_Canes View Post
If you think Sutter was drafted to play on the powerplay then you don't know much about him. He's not really a player who's going to put up good numbers at this level. Fairly solid, yes, but not good or great. Sure, if the pp keeps sucking give him a shot. It can't be any worse than what we've got out there. But Sutter is not really that kind of player. That's why I asked why you wanted him on the pp. He doesn't really have the skills of a pp guy.
So you are saying the Hurricanes drafted a guy in the top 15 of the draft with no intentions of him ever playing on the power play? That seems like a gross misuse of a higher draft pick if you ask me. I know he is a more of a 2 way player but I don't think the Canes planned on him never developing into a second line PP center(a la Cullen or Brind 'Amour). If Scott Walker can get some PP time, I see no reason why Brandon Sutter should at least get to show what he can do.

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Old
10-31-2009, 02:48 PM
  #91
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47-point pace through 12 games. Of course, that won't happen, we'll get better than that, but it sure illuminates the failure to date.

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10-31-2009, 03:36 PM
  #92
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I think I'm getting excited at the prospect of a re-build...We've never truly had one here in Carolina. It's obvious we've gotten slower, older and our skill level was not that high to begin with. But every time I think of Pitkanen, Sutter, Boychuk, Bowman, Staal, Ward and Gleason starting something together, I then think that Paul Maurice will be at the helm of that rebuild and then I don't feel so good...

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Old
10-31-2009, 04:07 PM
  #93
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Just for the sake of conversation, Eklund has Whitney going to Calgary at an E 3-4. Says by days end it will likely be E4.


Wouldn't that be just ****ed? Trading Ray Whitney before his 1000th game and the 'Ray Whitney Ticket Special' tomorrow. Not going to happen, not right now. Maybe in a couple days. Sure would be a bold move by JR, i'll say that.

I don't know if I can see JR shipping Whitney out right now, but it would be an impact move that would hit this locker room hard. If JR doesn't believe this season should be thrown out the window 11 games in, he may do something to try and fix it before it gets to far off the tracks.


Last edited by Guerzy: 10-31-2009 at 04:16 PM.
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10-31-2009, 04:12 PM
  #94
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The E2 was some Flames fan asking what the Canes would want for Whitney on the trade board.
The E3 was me answering "Probably a late first, they might not get it but that's what they'll be looking for"
The E4 will come when someone either slams me saying "lol homer much? talk about overrating your own stuff despite wantking to unload it" or agrees with me saying "sounds about right"

The guy has ZERO sources here in Raleigh. At least as far as credible ones go.

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10-31-2009, 04:45 PM
  #95
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Does Whitney have a NTC? I remember reading he did, then reading he didn't.

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10-31-2009, 04:47 PM
  #96
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I think that's one of those mysteries that nobody quite knows for sure.

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10-31-2009, 04:49 PM
  #97
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I believe that Luke mentioned he did not the last time it came up. I think he said the only ones on the team were Walker and Wallin for whatever reason.

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10-31-2009, 04:51 PM
  #98
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And for the record, I would be tickled pantsless if we could trade Whitney for Keith Aulie or even Mitch Wahl for that matter.

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10-31-2009, 04:54 PM
  #99
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nhlscap.com says Whitney has a No Movement Clause. Walker & Wallin have NTC and Staal has a NTC that kicks in July 1st.

Take it for what it's worth, who knows.

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10-31-2009, 04:58 PM
  #100
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This could be where Eklund pulled this Whitney talk from,


http://www.canescountry.com/2009/10/...ng-ray-whitney


Cory Lavalette, are you one of Eklunds sources?

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