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Wings at the end of their run?

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Old
10-23-2009, 07:57 PM
  #26
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Datsyuk and Zetterberg are no young players anymore, but they cannot be expected to become significantly worse year by year. But the question is still valid: Will the Red Wings continue their playoff streak?

Right now, the key players Datsyuk and Zetterberg are contributing less than they usually did and Franzen, who has become a very valuable asset, will be injured for months. Even when several of the second tier-forwards like Filppula, Holmström, Williams or Leino really have good games, the Red Wings have to work very hard for a win. The defence looks bad too often and the goaltending is even worse. And I do not deem those previous opponents like Buffalo, Colorado, St. Louis or Phoenix to be clearly stronger than upper-average.

But the Red Wings have shown that they can step up if needed. Last season, the could rely on talent and wait until the playoffs. This season looks like they have to step up after the All Star-break at the latest. I am sure that they will qualifiy for the playoffs again, but it feels a little bit sad that it obviously will by far not be as easy as (at least) I got used to.

Gruß,
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10-23-2009, 09:37 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by BSHH View Post
Datsyuk and Zetterberg are no young players anymore, but they cannot be expected to become significantly worse year by year. But the question is still valid: Will the Red Wings continue their playoff streak?

Right now, the key players Datsyuk and Zetterberg are contributing less than they usually did and Franzen, who has become a very valuable asset, will be injured for months. Even when several of the second tier-forwards like Filppula, Holmström, Williams or Leino really have good games, the Red Wings have to work very hard for a win. The defence looks bad too often and the goaltending is even worse. And I do not deem those previous opponents like Buffalo, Colorado, St. Louis or Phoenix to be clearly stronger than upper-average.

But the Red Wings have shown that they can step up if needed. Last season, the could rely on talent and wait until the playoffs. This season looks like they have to step up after the All Star-break at the latest. I am sure that they will qualifiy for the playoffs again, but it feels a little bit sad that it obviously will by far not be as easy as (at least) I got used to.

Gruß,
BSHH
I think that's a bit hasty, Datsyuk was obviously injured for the start of the season and managed 2 assists on the first game back after his break, meanwhile Zetterberg is currently on track for an 84 point season if he can play 75 games(he played 75 in 07-08 and 77 in 08-09), which while not a career high, is certainly not terrible.

I think given how hard the role players seem to be trying to make this work, the Wings aren't in that bad of a position with their forwards, we will have to wait and see how Datsyuk goes from here, and Franzen being injured is an unfortunate issue, but before the injury he was looking okay to me, if a bit floaty given a different role to last year.

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10-23-2009, 11:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
And that's where his merit ends. Just because their point production levels off/tapers does not necessarily reflect the effectiveness of a player nor does it necessarily mean the team is doomed (DOOMED!). I also disagree with his assertion that the wings aren't built to play good defensive hockey and that we need a goalie. We're off to a slow start. Big deal. Our slow start has us all of three points behind chicago and with a game in hand.
Hey man, join the chorus of people who seem to take personal offense anytime the Wings are criticized, if you want.
But I think it's pretty clear right now that Datsyuk and Zetterberg have not much more room to grow. Lids and Rafalski are obviously on the decline. We have a goalie who took a dump last regular season and who appears to be doing the same this year. Only this year, we don't have a veteran backup to play adequate hockey while Ozzie gets his head together. And there don't seem to be any forwards on this team capable of taking it to the next level.

The Wings are still a good team. But this team has more question marks than any Wings team in three years, when Datsyuk and Zetterberg finally took the reigns of the team.

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10-24-2009, 12:11 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Hey man, join the chorus of people who seem to take personal offense anytime the Wings are criticized, if you want.
But I think it's pretty clear right now that Datsyuk and Zetterberg have not much more room to grow. Lids and Rafalski are obviously on the decline. We have a goalie who took a dump last regular season and who appears to be doing the same this year. Only this year, we don't have a veteran backup to play adequate hockey while Ozzie gets his head together. And there don't seem to be any forwards on this team capable of taking it to the next level.

The Wings are still a good team. But this team has more question marks than any Wings team in three years, when Datsyuk and Zetterberg finally took the reigns of the team.
There's a huge difference between "not much more room to grow" which is entirely accurate, and "over the hill and already on the decline" which is what Buccigross is trying to say. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are probably at thier peaks, although they could still have career years to come if they have a particularly fortunate season, but they aren't slowing down yet, and how can anyone think it's bad that they are done growing when Datsyuk just won back to back Selkes?

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10-24-2009, 06:12 AM
  #30
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Exactly what I've been saying, the future looks bleak.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=690373

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10-24-2009, 12:13 PM
  #31
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Its really idiotic for a writer or anyone to speculate AFTER LESS THEN 10 GAMES that Detroit is at the end of their run. It goes to show you:

1. The guy knows jack **** about what he's talking about
2. The situation in Detroit currently (Franzen being hurt can take a toll on the team) is not even being considered.
3. They really got nothing else to write about

Sure, our guys are not getting any younger. Ozzie has been typical, Lidstrom and Rafalski hav been OK. Hank has been average half the season then good the other half. Pavel was hurt and seemed to look better last game. With a roster turnover like this, it takes time for players to find their way and gel. Saying we are at the end of our line for a 3-3-2 start is just so god damn stupid its insane.

What would these idiots say if we were 5-3-0 or better? What would they say if we had Franzen and were going 6-2? Its the same roster as it is now, yet we are near the end of the line?

How about is Luongo at the end of the line after this slow start? Is Bryzgalov the next future Vezina winner? Is Phoenix poised to lead the west? Is Fleury going to keep this pace up and get 50-60 wins? Thats how stupid this topic is.

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10-24-2009, 01:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Its really idiotic for a writer or anyone to speculate AFTER LESS THEN 10 GAMES that Detroit is at the end of their run. It goes to show you:

1. The guy knows jack **** about what he's talking about
2. The situation in Detroit currently (Franzen being hurt can take a toll on the team) is not even being considered.
3. They really got nothing else to write about

Sure, our guys are not getting any younger. Ozzie has been typical, Lidstrom and Rafalski hav been OK. Hank has been average half the season then good the other half. Pavel was hurt and seemed to look better last game. With a roster turnover like this, it takes time for players to find their way and gel. Saying we are at the end of our line for a 3-3-2 start is just so god damn stupid its insane.

What would these idiots say if we were 5-3-0 or better? What would they say if we had Franzen and were going 6-2? Its the same roster as it is now, yet we are near the end of the line?

How about is Luongo at the end of the line after this slow start? Is Bryzgalov the next future Vezina winner? Is Phoenix poised to lead the west? Is Fleury going to keep this pace up and get 50-60 wins? Thats how stupid this topic is.
Why do people assume that this is some reactionary article? Our goaltending and defense is the exact same as it has been for 90 regular season games. The only difference between this team and last years team is that we don't have the offense to cover up for our subpar perfomance everywhere else.

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10-24-2009, 01:10 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Exactly what I've been saying, the future looks bleak.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=690373
And sadly, our only "young" forward capable of big numbers is playing hockey in a different country right now.

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10-24-2009, 01:16 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Why do people assume that this is some reactionary article? Our goaltending and defense is the exact same as it has been for 90 regular season games. The only difference between this team and last years team is that we don't have the offense to cover up for our subpar perfomance everywhere else.
I get the point your making but its still stupid to put up that logic less then 10 games into the season. Last year's regular season means jack **** when your in the playoffs and you go to the finals. Do you really care that the team turns on like a light switch come playoff time? I understand you have to be able to get there in order to do that but still. I personally dont get why people are already making these assumptions that we are at the end of the line. This same **** was said in the early 2000-2001's. The same thing was said before the lockout. The same thing was said after the lockout. Its like a every 3-4 year debate. It just needs to stop. Holland and staff has proven time and time again to get **** done and keep this team ellie and rebuild on the fly so why bring this same ******** up again?

Is it really different this time around with Lidstrom being the "Red Wing hall of fame'r" on the verge of retirement? We all worried after Stevie was gone and look what happened. Ill panic when the team misses the playoffs and the farm looks like trash.

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10-24-2009, 01:22 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
I get the point your making but its still stupid to put up that logic less then 10 games into the season. Last year's regular season means jack **** when your in the playoffs and you go to the finals. Do you really care that the team turns on like a light switch come playoff time? I understand you have to be able to get there in order to do that but still. I personally dont get why people are already making these assumptions that we are at the end of the line. This same **** was said in the early 2000-2001's. The same thing was said before the lockout. The same thing was said after the lockout. Its like a every 3-4 year debate. It just needs to stop. Holland and staff has proven time and time again to get **** done and keep this team ellie and rebuild on the fly so why bring this same ******** up again?

Is it really different this time around with Lidstrom being the "Red Wing hall of fame'r" on the verge of retirement? We all worried after Stevie was gone and look what happened. Ill panic when the team misses the playoffs and the farm looks like trash.
Jimmy D doesn't seem to think its such a bad point to make:

Red Wings VP Jimmy Devellano on Fan 590: Wings fans should lower expectations

I've questioned this about Wings management for years, and a statement like this makes me wonder if we'll find out soon enough: Is the Wings brass capable of pulling off a trade to right this ship? I'm not talking about a quick fix, or a "make a strong team stronger" type of move - I'm talking about a move that is going to have an impact on this team now and in the coming years. I'm talking about taking a risk and shopping guys like Filppula, Leino, and Stuart while their stock is still high, and getting something that will help us through the coming years before guys like Tatar and Ferraro are ready. I'm really curious to see if Holland is actually capable of making a shrewd roster player for roster player swap.


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10-24-2009, 01:46 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MScoutsDCI View Post
Those are good points, but what do you think about the future...5 years from now who is going to be being groomed to take their places like they were when Stevie and Shanny were in their last few years?
Filpulla? Hudler? If everything goes as planned they should be 70+ point producers in 3 or 4 years. Maybe even Leino too but it is too early to judge.

Also I tried posting a comment on that page but i accidently refreshed and deleted what I wrote but what I was going to say, just because a player has his best stats when they are younger doesn't mean they are better players. Younger scorers aren't as strong many NHLers and they aren't as good defensively so they do more cherry picking and play more on the PP and not as much at ES. The result of that is most of their energy is geared towards scoring. Once they start to mature physically they turn into more well rounded players by playing strong defense and in all situations.

This all reminds me of this article from last year.
http://thehockeynews.com/articles/26...er-debate.html
Quote:
“I find it funny the argument is always Sid versus Alex and now you throw Malkin in there,” the scout said. “I bet if you polled the GMs or the directors of scouting, I bet they’d come up with Pav. The only difference is Pav is, like, 30. When those guys are at the peak of their career, they’ll want to play like Pav.”

...

“You could bring it back historically to Steve Yzerman,” the scout said. “Steve was getting 150 points and his team was in last place, but when he was encouraged to play on the ‘D’ side of the puck and to buy into the team aspect and use the guys around him, they started to win championships. I think that’s where Pav learned.”

...

“The next guy they have there who’s going to be like that is (Valtteri) Filppula,” the scout said. “He’s getting there; he’s like a young Pav. I don’t think he has the same offensive flair, but he’s young and he’s learning from the right guy.”
Also I think it is a bit hasty to write the Wings off but their really is no point in debating it, just see how the season unravels. The Red Wings are only 1 1/2 games back from first in the Central. Anything can happen between now and next June.

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Old
10-24-2009, 03:07 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
And sadly, our only "young" forward capable of big numbers is playing hockey in a different country right now.
Grigorenko, or who are you talking about? Hudler?

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10-24-2009, 03:50 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Devellano
It's 110 goals that our hockey club lost over the summer. We did sign Todd Bertuzzi, we did sign Jason Williams; they're not going to score those types of numbers for the Red Wings. I don't know how I can put it any other way than to be truthful; you can't lose those types of players and have the record we had a year ago. We are going to have to work very, very hard to be competitive, and to make the playoffs. That's the truth.
I wonder how people will spin this?
It's going to be a battle to make the playoffs. I'm fine with that. Truth is, it makes the regular season more interesting. It might shake up some of the principles guiding the franchise, because while I am supportive of most, I am opposed to others.

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10-24-2009, 05:54 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I wonder how people will spin this?
It's going to be a battle to make the playoffs. I'm fine with that. Truth is, it makes the regular season more interesting. It might shake up some of the principles guiding the franchise, because while I am supportive of most, I am opposed to others.
Spinning it and believing the spin are two different things.

The easiest spin? 2006-2007.

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10-24-2009, 06:03 PM
  #40
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I don't think Jimmy D or Kenny Holland said anything like this in 2006-07.

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10-24-2009, 06:47 PM
  #41
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I don't think Jimmy D or Kenny Holland said anything like this in 2006-07.
There was a year where Jimmy D or Jim Nill or Kenny said something to the effect of "Just wait. We'll be knocking on the door again in a few years." Can't remember what year that was, but it seemed earlier than 06-07. Anyone else remember this?

Regardless though, that might as well have been a different decade. I mean, when was the last time the Western Conference basically had 1 bad team? Thats what its shaping up to look like this year. I doubt Detroit/Anaheim/Vancouver stay in the basement, and I doubt Phoenix/Colorado/LA stay at the top, but I honestly do think that we're essentially looking at 13-14 teams with playoff potential in the West, with only the Wild and Nashville - mostly the Wild - looking like real bottom-feeders.

It didn't use to be the case where every single game featured an opponent that either had great goaltending, great defense, or great offense, or combinations of those. There simply aren't teams anymore that are flat-out weak. Thats going to have an impact on how the Wings operate, as it should.

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10-24-2009, 11:30 PM
  #42
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Seems like the end of the run starts this season.

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10-24-2009, 11:35 PM
  #43
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No offence, none. Defence is orindary and prone to stupid turnovers on a nightly basis. Goaltending is average at best. We're a good shot at missing the playoffs this season, still too early to write that mission off but we've got a lot of issues this season. Cannot score.

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10-24-2009, 11:45 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Filppula View Post
No offence, none. Defence is orindary and prone to stupid turnovers on a nightly basis. Goaltending is average at best. We're a good shot at missing the playoffs this season, still too early to write that mission off but we've got a lot of issues this season. Cannot score.
Actually, I thought the defense was pretty good. Only two goals against, and one was entirely Howard's fault. That goal shouldn't happen on an NHL goalie. Lidstrom, Kronwall, Stuart, and even Lebda were pretty solid tonight. Rafalski and Ericsson, however, screwed up royally.

But this is what I mean about not having a team strength.

If Howard was an awesome goalie, maybe he stops both goals, but he at least stops 1. If the Wings had an awesome defense, then the defense stops at least the first goal. If the Wings had a great offense, all they had to do was score 2 goals on 7 PP chances.

This team could've easily had at least a point if ONE collective position was a strength of ours.

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10-24-2009, 11:56 PM
  #45
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1) too many unskilled forwards to pretend this is a puck possession team.
2) If we're not a puck possession team, what are we?
3) One bad goal a game kills you in the NHL.
4) Ericsson has so many chances to paste guys into the boards, but keeps playing like Lidstrom and Rafalski. It's frustrating as hell.

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10-25-2009, 12:07 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1) too many unskilled forwards to pretend this is a puck possession team.
2) If we're not a puck possession team, what are we?
3) One bad goal a game kills you in the NHL.
4) Ericsson has so many chances to paste guys into the boards, but keeps playing like Lidstrom and Rafalski. It's frustrating as hell.
Honestly, I don't think we have the personnel to be anything else. We're not big. We're not fast throughout. We don't have a high-powered offense. And we don't have a a good goalie or a strong defense. So I think that eliminates:

1. A defense-first team
2. A dump-and-chase team
3. A run-and-gun team
4. A physical force team
5. A trap team

What else is there?

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10-25-2009, 12:21 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Honestly, I don't think we have the personnel to be anything else. We're not big. We're not fast throughout. We don't have a high-powered offense. And we don't have a a good goalie or a strong defense. So I think that eliminates:

1. A defense-first team
2. A dump-and-chase team
3. A run-and-gun team
4. A physical force team
5. A trap team

What else is there?
And that's the problem.
Losing Hudler, Hossa, Sammy and Franzen ... So far, the only replacement worth balls is Bertuzzi.
Williams looks like nutsweat. Leino isn't ready yet. Helm, Abdelkader and Eaves aren't puck possession types.

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10-25-2009, 05:59 AM
  #48
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Younger players are more energetic, more durable, heal quicker and, most important, have heightened mental clarity because younger people think only of the present, which is the key to creativity and productivity.
That's sounds like some made up, quasi-scientific facts to me. Especially the "because younger people only think of the present.."-part.

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10-25-2009, 09:19 AM
  #49
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What is wrong with Datsyuk? He is killing me in my fantasy :/

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10-25-2009, 02:00 PM
  #50
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Well, it was fun while it lasted I guess.

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