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HNIC could start dropping Leafs games if they continue to lose

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Old
10-24-2009, 10:51 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
What's the average ticket price in upper bowl in Toronto? I would say montreal is probably $40... I really think outside of premium seating, the discrepancy is not large enough to justify such a difference in crowd involvement/noise. anyways, it's night and day to compare the two, and whatever the reason, it's not likely going to change either... the fact is the passion and involvement is expressed a lot differently in Quebecois culture than it is with Ontario culture.

You're talking about an average of $40 difference per ticket compared to Montreal and Toronto. And 2000 less seats.

It's unfair to base croud noise on how passionate fans are. Do you really think the rich suits at the ACC represent Leaf nation?

Even when being the worst team in the league, it's not even close. The Leafs are the most expensive and hardest to get tickets in the NHL.

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10-25-2009, 12:08 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
You're talking about an average of $40 difference per ticket compared to Montreal and Toronto. And 2000 less seats.

It's unfair to base croud noise on how passionate fans are. Do you really think the rich suits at the ACC represent Leaf nation?

Even when being the worst team in the league, it's not even close. The Leafs are the most expensive and hardest to get tickets in the NHL.
Not these days - scalpers are letting them go for below face value.

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10-25-2009, 01:01 AM
  #103
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Are you serious?

"aaaaand the referee calls a penalty....no wait a minute, Mats Naslund scored...no, it was Tucker...no, actually it was offside...."
I rarely actually laugh out loud at something I read on the internet, but this is golden.

With all the downers around, this is even funnier.

Literally, lol!

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10-25-2009, 01:12 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by mikeo1 View Post
The fans didn't start booing the Leafs last game. They've been booed several times this season, and have been regularly booed during big losses for the past few years. I don't think you follow Leafs hockey, and its obvious your opinion is based on some preconceived notions rather than actual observation.

"Culture"? Yeah, you're right. We're all up-tight WASPs here. Jeez, are you still stuck in the 1950s?
I watch games - and it's quiet. Can you argue that? Everyone knows it. Point being, for the impartial hockey enthusiast, less crowd energy, less excitement, higher chance of flipping to something on Center Ice.

And yes, cultural difference in the way fans react in Montreal vs Toronto. This is not my theory, it's well understood... and I recall reading an article about this online from a toronto media source (can't remember). Maybe someone knows which one I'm talking about.

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10-25-2009, 01:15 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by ComrieFanatic View Post
It depends on the situation. If you have a good team that is having a bad night then fans are more likely to get into it and try to get their team back in the game. But in Toronto, as it's been for the last few years, fans know the team isn't good and are less likely to chant things when the team is down 3 or 4 goals or playing like garbage.



Outside of Toronto, most CFL games are sold-out or close to it. The stadiums in the CFL aren't as big as the NFL but I don't think people are chosing not to watch a CFL game due to the size of a stadium or because the crowd isn't as loud. It's probably more due to the fact that the NFL is a far better product.



Agreed. Toronto has the largest market and therefore produces the highest ratings. People outside of the GTA who hate the Leafs still watch because they like to see their most hated team lose. I hate the Colts and Cowboys in the NFL but will watch most of their games because I like cheering for the team they are playing against.



Don't you think CBC has done their market research? If more people were going to watch a game featuring Montreal or Ottawa I think CBC would know that and would change which games are avaliable in particular territories. Look, it's not only CBC that chooses to broadcast more national Leaf games - TSN and the NHL Network US feature several and it's for good reason. And don't forget that the NHL Network US as no obligation to syndicate Leaf games on Saturday nights; they can choose any of the 2-3 HNIC games that are on at 7PM.

I think you are really overvaluing the effect the atmosphere has on a television audience. Ratings have more to do who's playing and what the match-up is. Toronto wasn't the national game on several occasions last year because other Canadian teams were playing in marquee match-ups. If they used your argument, then CBC would always chose to have Edmonton or Montreal has their marquee match-up because they have the loudest crowds in Canada, and the NHL Network US would always show Philadelphia and Carolina.
I know a lot of people that hate the CFL because the production, and stage, looks amateur.

Secondly, I'm not saying that atmosphere is everything - but when all else is equal, it does increase the entertainment value of a hockey game.

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10-25-2009, 01:19 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
Ask and thou shalt receive. Dec/08.
Sorry, maybe I'm too tired or what not, but does the link you provide me show national broadcast ratings for a toronto game vs a national broadcast rating for a Montreal game? We have to compare apples to apples.

If so, match-ups, time of year, etc.. would be helpful too.

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10-25-2009, 01:21 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I watch games - and it's quiet. Can you argue that? Everyone knows it. Point being, for the impartial hockey enthusiast, less crowd energy, less excitement, higher chance of flipping to something on Center Ice.
Yes, because the team cannot win.

And I'd wager the quality of the game, the players involved, and the logos on the jerseys are far more important to most observers than crowd volume.

You also said that Toronto fans can't use the quality of their team as an excuse, which was where I entered this argument. The Habs had the exact same problem earlier this decade. You can deny it if you want, but any honest fan will admit to this.

Quote:
And yes, cultural difference in the way fans react in Montreal vs Toronto. This is not my theory, it's well understood... and I recall reading an article about this online from a toronto media source (can't remember). Maybe someone knows which one I'm talking about.
Well, if you read it on the internet then it must be true! Its also "well understood" that chemicals are bad, vaccines cause autism, all-natural products are good for you, and jogging is the ultimate form of exercise.

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10-25-2009, 01:21 AM
  #108
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It goes to show you that the CBC is smarter then the average leafs fan, they are willing to dump them and make them pay the price for running a organization into the ground, devoid of any hope.

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10-25-2009, 01:25 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
It goes to show you that the CBC is smarter then the average leafs fan, they are willing to dump them and make them pay the price for running a organization into the ground, devoid of any hope.
Then please do us all a favour and leave. I'm getting pretty tired of posters who can barely put together an English sentence insulting others' intelligence.

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10-25-2009, 02:06 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by HabstuckinTO View Post
Not these days - scalpers are letting them go for below face value.
That is scalpers though. They're still terribly overpriced for the avg. person.

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10-25-2009, 02:09 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Brentbreakaway23 View Post
Stupid move by CBC.

Even when the Leafs lose people will still want to watch them, and the Leafs have one of the most loyal and populous followings in all of the NHL.

Why would CBC slit it's own throat?

This is kind of like why does NBC air Notre Dame football games, even when they lose? It's the same difference. Viewership=ratings+ads+money.

The Toronto media seems to become more and more stupid every year. They are hypocrites with players, trades and the way the team should be run. I am tired of hearing their otherwise brainless banter.
And people will still want to watch them to see them lose. It's like the Yankees, except for the success thing.

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10-25-2009, 02:16 AM
  #112
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Of course people will want to watch them lose.

The Leafs haven't won a game, are a disaster, worst team in hockey. They also happen to be THE talk of the NHL right now.

What moronic Leaf-haters don't get is, they are helping make the Leafs such a big ratings draw.

If you hate a team, stop talking about them constantly.

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10-25-2009, 02:17 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
What's the average ticket price in upper bowl in Toronto? I would say montreal is probably $40... I really think outside of premium seating, the discrepancy is not large enough to justify such a difference in crowd involvement/noise. anyways, it's night and day to compare the two, and whatever the reason, it's not likely going to change either... the fact is the passion and involvement is expressed a lot differently in Quebecois culture than it is with Ontario culture.
A. Its mostly suits/corporate types who go to Leaf games, this is a fact.

B. How can you expect a loud and passionate arena when the team sucks and has no chance of improving? They havent made the playoffs 5 straight years. Try being passionate about that.

Watch any video of the Leafs when they were in the playoffs many years ago and you can clearly see how loud the ACC got. Winning changes everything.

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10-25-2009, 02:20 AM
  #114
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Raptor games at the ACC are actually very loud.

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10-25-2009, 02:38 AM
  #115
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Poll: Habs are Canada's team

Poll: Habs are Canada's team

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2008/...abs_favourite/

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10-25-2009, 06:22 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Raptor games at the ACC are actually very loud.
Indeed. So are the TFC games. Toronto fans are quite loud, except for with hockey, and it's not just because of the product with the Leafs, nor is it just an issue of money. It's something else, but damned if I know what that is.

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10-25-2009, 06:43 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Platapie View Post
Indeed. So are the TFC games. Toronto fans are quite loud, except for with hockey, and it's not just because of the product with the Leafs, nor is it just an issue of money. It's something else, but damned if I know what that is.
I personally think it is money. They've priced their real fans out. They'll pay for that in the future.

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10-25-2009, 11:40 AM
  #118
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Money only goes so far in this decision and comes at a price.. The Leafs at this point will still have the most viewers but that might change quickly..

I think the bigger picture view point here is if the Leafs continue to struggle and fall out of the playoff race realistically.

Then should HNIC continue to broadcast Leaf games regardless of their place in the NHL standings?.. Even Leaf fans are going lose interest eventually in a lost Leafs season, where only the diehards will continue to watch beyond that point.. Without top picks even Tank Nation has nothing but disappointment from not having our pick as the losses mount.

So it will be hard to blame HNIC or CBC for eventually wanting to put two teams in playoff battles on TV as the National game and the Leafs as the regional one.

I have Bell's Center Ice package so it doesn't really matter to me what they show, as I can watch my Leafs or any game I want always.

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10-25-2009, 11:57 AM
  #119
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i have Bell Tv.Leafs did not get full national coverage last night.

CBC Ontario(Leafs region),CBC West of Ont channels - Leafs vs Nucks

CBC Ontario(none Leafs region) some showed Habs vs Rangers,some Sens vs Bruins

CBC late game (EST) was Oilers vs Flames don't know if that was national.

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10-26-2009, 10:03 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Sorry, maybe I'm too tired or what not, but does the link you provide me show national broadcast ratings for a toronto game vs a national broadcast rating for a Montreal game? We have to compare apples to apples.

If so, match-ups, time of year, etc.. would be helpful too.
Mid December, last year. Leafs did not play that Saturday. Washington-Habs was the national broadcast. HNIC had averaged 1,334,889 for the 7pm game up until that point in the season. A week (or two) earlier, Washington-Leafs as the national 7pm HNIC broadcast drew 1,220,000 viewers.

Leafs weren't on, ratings plummeted below 1,000,000 viewers, a nearly 30% drop from the average ratings. Period.

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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
Well folks, as we all know for the first time since 1996, the Leafs this past Saturday were not on CBC's Hockey Night in Canada.

Long has been the debate of, "How much do the Leafs actually affect the ratings?". Are they in fact the biggest draw, and justified in showing as the national HNIC broadcast lo these many years? Or merely an intolerable bias towards Toronto?

For the first time in well over a decade, we can examine some hard data.

The Leafs, as the national broadcast of HNIC, through the first nine Saturdays of the season, averaged a draw of 1,334,889 for HNIC. I presume this includes viewership for locally broadcast CBC games as well.

That other Canadian original six team, with the market to themselves and a prime match-up, showcasing Washington and young phenom Alexander Ovechkin, drew 942,000, a drop of nearly 30% in viewership.

A similar match-up of the Leafs versus Washington on December 6, 2008, shared with a Montreal - New Jersey match-up, produced a draw of 1,220,000.

I trust that this will do nothing towards stemming the debate of why the Leafs are featured nationally so routinely, but draw your own conclusions based on cold hard numbers.

Viewership numbers from: http://www.bbm.ca/en/top_programs.html

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10-26-2009, 10:07 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
Mid December, last year. Leafs did not play that Saturday. Washington-Habs was the national broadcast. HNIC had averaged 1,334,889 for the 7pm game up until that point in the season. A week (or two) earlier, Washington-Leafs as the national 7pm HNIC broadcast drew 1,220,000 viewers.

Leafs weren't on, ratings plummeted below 1,000,000 viewers, a nearly 30% drop from the average ratings. Period.
I think he wanted you to explain it using apples

I'm not sure how you could have been any more clear the first time.

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10-26-2009, 10:13 AM
  #122
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I hope so, HNIC sucks the big one. I think I remember a time that they provided good coverage, but sometimes I question if I made that up.

Can someone get rid of Don Cherry yet? The only thing that clashes more than his attire is his logic.

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10-26-2009, 10:31 AM
  #123
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Big deal, what will they do? Not make the Leafs the national broadcast? That would suck for Leafs fans not in the GTA.

Oh wait they have this new TV technology called timeshifting so who cares what CBC does, it's not like they will drop the Leafs all together.

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10-26-2009, 12:57 PM
  #124
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The Tipping Point

I think some of the assumptions and outright exagerations in this thread have gotten little out of hand.

The issue is not whether CBC will give up rights to NHL games on Sat if they can... if they can keep the rights, they will. They will also try to play Leas games for the GTA, Sens games for the Sens region and Habs games in Quebec as much as possible.

What Moore is saying isn't a threat, so much as a prediction. The Leafs fans in Western Canada are a shrinking market because the Leafs aren't the only team serving english Canada anymore and haven't been the only team in 30-40 years in many Western markets. This means that those Leaf fans they are/were catering to are in large part; aging. However, there is another market they are trying to attract of the general hockey fan who is also likely a fan of a Western team. These fans are likely to be younger, but will also cover a broad spectrum of ages.

So here CBC is marketing to a group of Western Leaf fans who are say... 50 to 100 years old. As well as marketing to a group of hockey fans who are maybe 0 to 50 years old. What can we say about the first group? Well, 1) they're dying (tactful, I know) and 2) they've probably already purchased 75 to 100% of the **** they are ever going to own. While the first group is in the midst of purchasing 0 to 75% of the **** they will ever own. Therefore, the group of hockey fans is the better market for advertisers.

All Moore is saying is that CBC believes that it is reaching a tipping point where the market for out of region Leaf fans is becoming less profitable than the market for hockey fans in general. He is saying that a bad product, meaningless games without playoff implications and a team lacking any star power is a tough sell to hockey fans in the era of Centre Ice and the internet.

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10-26-2009, 01:40 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
I think some of the assumptions and outright exagerations in this thread have gotten little out of hand.

The issue is not whether CBC will give up rights to NHL games on Sat if they can... if they can keep the rights, they will. They will also try to play Leas games for the GTA, Sens games for the Sens region and Habs games in Quebec as much as possible.

What Moore is saying isn't a threat, so much as a prediction. The Leafs fans in Western Canada are a shrinking market because the Leafs aren't the only team serving english Canada anymore and haven't been the only team in 30-40 years in many Western markets. This means that those Leaf fans they are/were catering to are in large part; aging. However, there is another market they are trying to attract of the general hockey fan who is also likely a fan of a Western team. These fans are likely to be younger, but will also cover a broad spectrum of ages.

So here CBC is marketing to a group of Western Leaf fans who are say... 50 to 100 years old. As well as marketing to a group of hockey fans who are maybe 0 to 50 years old. What can we say about the first group? Well, 1) they're dying (tactful, I know) and 2) they've probably already purchased 75 to 100% of the **** they are ever going to own. While the first group is in the midst of purchasing 0 to 75% of the **** they will ever own. Therefore, the group of hockey fans is the better market for advertisers.

All Moore is saying is that CBC believes that it is reaching a tipping point where the market for out of region Leaf fans is becoming less profitable than the market for hockey fans in general. He is saying that a bad product, meaningless games without playoff implications and a team lacking any star power is a tough sell to hockey fans in the era of Centre Ice and the internet.

Western market teams have western based teams, and unless one of them is playing in the east, they are on after the eastern teams play.

If anything, they might be losing Leafs' fans, but gaining audience from fans that love to watch the Leafs lose.

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