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Old
10-25-2009, 08:31 PM
  #451
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So...I am supposed to believe that an increase from .6 ppg to 1.0 ppg is considered normal "player development" for a 3rd year player?
I would be interested to see some examples of how you arrived at that conclusion.
For a player coming off a second year sophomore slump (hence the term itself -- sophomore slump) ... uh yeah?

We didn't draft Sam Gagner to be a third line center. He's the highest draft pick the Oilers have had since 1994. Also look at Hemsky's 2nd and 3rd seasons.

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10-25-2009, 08:32 PM
  #452
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Have you been drinking again Mr Lahey?

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10-25-2009, 08:33 PM
  #453
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For a player coming off a second year sophomore slump ... uh yeah?

We didn't draft Sam Gagner to be a third line center.
So...lets see the comparables.

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10-25-2009, 08:33 PM
  #454
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Have you been drinking again Mr Lahey?
No, but I am on the manic swing of my depression.

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10-25-2009, 08:35 PM
  #455
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No, but I am on the manic swing of my depression.
You're such an opportunist.

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10-25-2009, 08:36 PM
  #456
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So...lets see the comparables.
Well as I edited into my post Hemsky?

I think you're pretty stupid if you literally look at the stats and assume too much this early on in the season.

One game can skew the ppg dramatically (like the Columbus game). I personally don't see either Calgary or Edmonton maintaining this pace simply because they don't have the talent level upfront to maintain a scoring rate above teams like Pittsburgh and Washington.

If you think that's crazy, lol, I don't know what to tell you.

If you're going strictly by "well Hemsky is historically hitting close to his career ppg" ... well guess what ... so is Iginla, so you can't even use that "Iginla is underproducing" arguement either (8 points in 10 games for Iginla). Some how I also doubt Dion Phaneuf scores 40 goals (which is about what he's prorated at right now) either.

Actually your arguement falls apart pretty easily here ... Jokinen is really the only major player on the Flames who is a tad below his career ppg, whereas Edmonton has several on top of their top point producing d-man (Souray) being out completely after just 2 games and having also dealt with a pretty nasty flu bug in the same stretch. Calgary has had none of those issues.


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10-25-2009, 08:52 PM
  #457
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Minus Cammalleri, Bertuzzi (who outperformed his contract). Glencross and Bourque were already there last year, why are they touted as new additions. Or do we get to count Visnovsky as a new addition to our lineup?

Quite frankly I hope Bourque has a good year and bleeds Calgary for every last ounce of cap room they have left.

Bourque Langkow Iginla
Glencross Backlund Dawes (?)

Will be the top six they're stuck with, and that's even if Backlund pans out.

Also watching the NYR-Habs game yesterday ... looks like Cammalleri might not have been mooching all his offense from Iginla after all. Helluva player, too bad Calgary basically gave up a pick for him and then got nothing out of it other than their GM replacing him with the lazier Jokinen and throwing away even more picks/prospects in the process.
Look I hate the Flamers as much as anyone. I have to live in this town.That said, I feel they have way outperformed the Oilers. I know that Glenncross and Bourque were acquired two years back... that's why I said build on and to the point the last two years Sutter has retooled an already strong roster. So they lost Cammelleri who had a career year and then disappeared during the playoffs. Who would you rather have - a small scorer or a 30 minute all world dman in Bouwmeister that **********?

Count on Bourque having a career year. The guy can flat out play and was had for ... a third round draft pick. If it makes you happen on the acquisition scorecard by all means count Vis. He's been a quality addition but at 32 another puzzling fit on a team that lurched out of the playoffs and failed to make any off season moves on a roster deemed not good enough by the General Manager.

Sutter has simply got it done. And it suggest he is capable of wheeling and dealing again so I am not sure your speculative top six carries any weight. But for the record, I like Backlund and have since I saw him light up the Macs Midget Tournament where he was MVP.

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10-25-2009, 08:54 PM
  #458
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Well as I edited into my post Hemsky?

I think you're pretty stupid if you literally look at the stats and assume too much this early on in the season.

One game can skew the ppg dramatically (like the Columbus game). I personally don't see either Calgary or Edmonton maintaining this pace simply because they don't have the talent level upfront to maintain a scoring rate above teams like Pittsburgh and Washington.

If you think that's crazy, lol, I don't know what to tell you.

If you're going strictly by "well Hemsky is historically hitting close to his career ppg" ... well guess what ... so is Iginla, so you can't even use that "Iginla is underproducing" arguement either (8 points in 10 games for Iginla). Some how I also doubt Dion Phaneuf scores 40 goals (which is about what he's prorated at right now) either.

Actually your arguement falls apart pretty easily here ... Jokinen is really the only major player on the Flames who is a tad below his career ppg, whereas Edmonton has several on top of their top point producing d-man (Souray) being out completely after just 2 games and having also dealt with a pretty nasty flu bug in the same stretch. Calgary has had none of those issues.
So...let me get this straight. The basis of this discussion was which team was overachieving based on games player so far this season. I play by those rules and you come back with this gem..."you're pretty stupid if you literally look at the stats and assume too much this early on in the season."

Not much point in having a discussion if you continue to change the rules in an effort ot support your argument and then have the audacity to throw around insults.

Carry on.

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10-25-2009, 08:56 PM
  #459
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Look I hate the Flamers as much as anyone. I have to live in this town.That said, I feel they have way outperformed the Oilers. I know that Glenncross and Bourque were acquired two years back... that's why I said build on and to the point the last two years Sutter has retooled an already strong roster. So they lost Cammelleri who had a career year and then disappeared during the playoffs. Who would you rather have - a small scorer or a 30 minute all world dman in Bouwmeister that **********?

Count on Bourque having a career year. The guy can flat out play and was had for ... a third round draft pick. If it makes you happen on the acquisition scorecard by all means count Vis. He's been a quality addition but at 32 another puzzling fit on a team that lurched out of the playoffs and failed to make any off season moves on a roster deemed not good enough by the General Manager.

Sutter has simply got it done. And it suggest he is capable of wheeling and dealing again so I am not sure your speculative top six carries any weight. But for the record, I like Backlund and have since I saw him light up the Macs Midget Tournament where he was MVP.
Well, gee thanks for that insight. I live in Calgary too. Do they get some kind of trophy for being better than us when we've been forced to rebuild at gun point?

I would hope for their sake they are better than us right now because Iginla and Kipper are not getting any younger. They are on the clock right now, as I've said, the Oilers are not.

I hope Bourque has a great year. Because that will force Calgary to blow every spare bit of cap room they have left or be forced to watch him walk.

Define "getting it done". What exactly has Sutter gotten "done" since the lockout? What has Calgary won again? Have they not won the NW division before? I recall they beat the Oilers in the 05-06 regular season series too. Where were they in May of that year, just for the record? If Sutter doesn't get more "done" this year, I think he might be the one who's "done" in Calgary.

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10-25-2009, 09:01 PM
  #460
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So...let me get this straight. The basis of this discussion was which team was overachieving based on games player so far this season. I play by those rules and you come back with this gem..."you're pretty stupid if you literally look at the stats and assume too much this early on in the season."

Not much point in having a discussion if you continue to change the rules in an effort ot support your argument and then have the audacity to throw around insults.

Carry on.
Actually I think your arguement debunked itself pretty easily on its own merits.

For instance, between Souray and Pisani it can be reasonably stated the Oilers are without about 30 goals in their lineup. The lineup we iced against Calgary on Saturday, you could say we were without about 60-70 goals in our lineup (no Souray, Comrie, Brule, or Pisani).

How many goals is Calgary missing from their lineup due to injury? The Oilers are the fortunate ones in this analogy and the Flames are the ones who are supposedly underproducing?

How many games have Flames forwards missed due to injury or the flu so far this season?

You claimed the Flames offense would be much better because Iginla currently isn't playing well ... when actually his ppg (much like Hemsky) is indeed very much comparable to his career ppg. Changing goal posts much there?

Penner is not going to maintain this scoring rate ... but neither is Phaneuf (or Bourque for that matter).

The only Flame that is underproducing notably from his career ppg is Jokinen, and even that is not all that much.

I also believe Calgary will regret letting Cammalleri walk. He is the best forward they've had outside of Iginla since probably Theo Fleury and he is showing that now in Montreal. Opting for Jokinen instead was a big mistake.


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10-25-2009, 09:03 PM
  #461
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No, but I am on the manic swing of my depression.
I've heard a Gibby will do that to you.

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Old
10-25-2009, 09:28 PM
  #462
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Well, gee thanks for that insight. I live in Calgary too. Do they get some kind of trophy for being better than us when we've been forced to rebuild at gun point?

I would hope for their sake they are better than us right now because Iginla and Kipper are not getting any younger. They are on the clock right now, as I've said, the Oilers are not.

I hope Bourque has a great year. Because that will force Calgary to blow every spare bit of cap room they have left or be forced to watch him walk.

Define "getting it done". What exactly has Sutter gotten "done" since the lockout? What has Calgary won again? Have they not won the NW division before? I recall they beat the Oilers in the 05-06 regular season series too. Where were they in May of that year, just for the record? If Sutter doesn't get more "done" this year, I think he might be the one who's "done" in Calgary.
No need to get pissy. You're the one who chose to comment on my post when I responded to another poster questioning the Flamers off season moves.

First, I don't think the average age between these two teams is that much of a gap. And for your Iggy and Kipper reference, we have Horcoff, Souray and Vis whose clock is also ticking. And Horc for longgggggg term and money. Not to mention an older (36 year old goalie) signed for four years.

Define getting it done? Well, he's built a consistent playoff team. That is more that Oil management has been able to get done. He's cut bad contracts and added major talent upgrades and added several low cost value propositions. Getting it done I'd define as getting an elite 26 year old 30 minute per game all star defenseman for a third round pick. Getting a proven successful coach under contract no less for nothing a step towards getting it done. Foisting Vandermeer on the Coyotes and Primeau on the Leafs I would call getting to done. Several major improvements going into this season.

The Flamers look on paper this year to be a legitimate Cup contender. Hard to make hard and fast definitive evaluations on anything at this stage. But they have shown the ability to make moves to improve their roster. We'll see how it plays out.

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10-25-2009, 09:32 PM
  #463
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No need to get pissy. You're the one who chose to comment on my post when I responded to another poster questioning the Flamers off season moves.

First, I don't think the average age between these two teams is that much of a gap. And for your Iggy and Kipper reference, we have Horcoff, Souray and Vis whose clock is also ticking. And Horc for longgggggg term and money. Not to mention an older (36 year old goalie) signed for four years.

Define getting it done? Well, he's built a consistent playoff team. That is more that Oil management has been able to get done. He's cut bad contracts and added major talent upgrades and added several low cost value propositions. Getting it done I'd define as getting an elite 26 year old 30 minute per game all star defenseman for a third round pick. Getting a proven successful coach under contract no less for nothing a step towards getting it done. Foisting Vandermeer on the Coyotes and Primeau on the Leafs I would call getting to done. Several major improvements going into this season.

The Flamers look on paper this year to be a legitimate Cup contender. Hard to make hard and fast definitive evaluations on anything at this stage. But they have shown the ability to make moves to improve their roster. We'll see how it plays out.
If that top six is Cup worthy ... then Pat Quinn is winning Canadian Idol. I think it's much more difficult for "Cinderella" teams like the 04 Flames and even the 06 Oilers to make runs now because even the "softer" skill teams have their share of grit now too and much higher high end talent.

That's how Chicago made Calgary and Vancouver both look foolish. I said it last year and people didn't buy it -- the NW division was overrated. People get tunnelvision because they're too busy looking at divisional rivals.


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10-25-2009, 09:47 PM
  #464
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If that top six is Cup worthy ... then Pat Quinn is winning Canadian Idol. I think it's much more difficult for "Cinderella" teams like the 04 Flames and even the 06 Oilers to make runs now because even the "softer" skill teams have their share of grit now too and much higher high end talent.

That's how Chicago made Calgary and Vancouver both look foolish. I said it last year and people didn't buy it -- the NW division was overrated. People get tunnelvision because they're too busy looking at divisional rivals.
Well I actually see Quinn as more of a So You Think You Can Dance guy. But with an all star level goaltender and three potential all stars or even Olympians on defense, the backend more often than not drives results in the playoffs. Add some opportunistic scoring not to mention an all star like Iginlia up front and there is a pretty good foundation for playoff success. Whether it happens is another thing but that's why the games are played.

Chicago is loaded with skill and grit. Period. They have drafted well and now it is paying dividends coming out in last year's playoffs. Big time talent on that roster but they won't catch anyone by surprise this playoff and will go only as far as their goaltending will take them.

The playoffs are great for the upsets that happen. There are no guarantees as we have seen with San Jose's annual flop. But on the question of talent and potential, I hate to say it but imo the Flamers match up well with anyone.

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10-25-2009, 09:50 PM
  #465
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Well I actually see Quinn as more of a So You Think You Can Dance guy. But with an all star level goaltender and three potential all stars or even Olympians on defense, the backend more often than not drives results in the playoffs. Add some opportunistic scoring not to mention an all star like Iginlia up front and there is a pretty good foundation for playoff success. Whether it happens is another thing but that's why the games are played.

Chicago is loaded with skill and grit. Period. They have drafted well and now it is paying dividends coming out in last year's playoffs. Big time talent on that roster but they won't catch anyone by surprise this playoff and will go only as far as their goaltending will take them.

The playoffs are great for the upsets that happen. There are no guarantees as we have seen with San Jose's annual flop. But on the question of talent and potential, I hate to say it but imo the Flamers match up well with anyone.
I don't think they match up well with Chicago at all. Look at what Chicago did to them without Hossa. I think luckily for Chicago there are quite a few goalies that figure to be on the market come deadline day, moreso than top six talent that Calgary needs.

Their second line grinders are not going to be able to score when the checking gets tighter in the playoffs. Bourque and Glencross had a combined whopping 1 goal versus Chicago in the playoffs last year. Forget Chicago, I honestly would not be shocked one iota if a team like Columbus or L.A. took them out in round 1. They don't do well versus Anaheim or San Jose either.

There are several other teams in the West that can beat them as is. Not to mention the East, which I believe is a definite notch better than the West. I also think basically choosing Jokinen over Cammalleri was a big, big mistake.


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10-25-2009, 10:14 PM
  #466
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I don't think they match up well with Chicago at all. Look at what Chicago did to them without Hossa. I think luckily for Chicago there are quite a few goalies that figure to be on the market come deadline day, moreso than top six talent that Calgary needs.

Their second line grinders are not going to be able to score when the checking gets tighter in the playoffs. Bourque and Glencross had a combined whopping 1 goal versus Chicago in the playoffs last year. Forget Chicago, I honestly would not be shocked one iota if a team like Columbus or L.A. took them out in round 1. They don't do well versus Anaheim or San Jose either.

There are several other teams in the West that can beat them as is. Not to mention the East, which I believe is a definite notch better than the West. I also think basically choosing Jokinen over Cammalleri was a big, big mistake.
Hey great. Your opinions and you are entitled to them. We'll know when the playoffs are upon us. Who is healthy. Who is hot. etc. Impossible to predict at this point.

I love that Chicago team and would love to see them win it all. Not convinced about their (current) goaltending but we will see. The Flamers? Who knows what is in store for them but we can revisit this discussion in late April/May because short of a plane crash they will be in the dance and have at least the opportunity to win it all. Can't win if you don't have a ticket. And at least since Sutter has arrived this team has given them the playoff ticket and opportunity to string together another run.

Will this year be different? I hope not. But if this Flamers team is healthy (as they weren't last year), I think they can put together a deep playoff run.

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10-25-2009, 10:20 PM
  #467
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Hey great. Your opinions and you are entitled to them. We'll know when the playoffs are upon us. Who is healthy. Who is hot. etc. Impossible to predict at this point.

I love that Chicago team and would love to see them win it all. Not convinced about their (current) goaltending but we will see. The Flamers? Who knows what is in store for them but we can revisit this discussion in late April/May because short of a plane crash they will be in the dance and have at least the opportunity to win it all. Can't win if you don't have a ticket. And at least since Sutter has arrived this team has given them the playoff ticket and opportunity to string together another run.

Will this year be different? I hope not. But if this Flamers team is healthy (as they weren't last year), I think they can put together a deep playoff run.
Vancouver was basically what Calgary is when they're healthy. See what Chicago did to them.

Lets be honest, right now it's Sid and Geno's league and it's going to take A LOT to change that IMO, more than anything anyone in the West is packing.

I think Chicago and maybe San Jose (if they can grow a pair) might have a shot, but the big boys are really in the East.

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