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Jaromir Jagr vs Bobby Hull

View Poll Results: Jaromir Jagr vs Bobby Hull
Jaromir Jagr 69 60.53%
Bobby Hull 45 39.47%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-28-2009, 03:48 PM
  #76
KingGallagherXI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
For their respective careers, Jagr is 9% ahead of Sakic.
Hull is 9% ahead of Howe.
In points.
They both dominated their peers. You can vote for Hull because he was a better goalscorer. I just don't think it's fair to say that it's not close.

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Old
10-28-2009, 03:53 PM
  #77
RabbinsDuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
They both dominated their peers. You can vote for Hull because he was a better goalscorer. I just don't think it's fair to say that it's not close.
What I am saying is "career" is not the only thing most people rank a player on:

Goal scoring - Hull
Prime and peak years - Hull
Playoffs - Hull
Physical play - Hull
Defense - Hull
Skating - Hull
Leadership - Hull

Playmaking - Jagr

Career - Close (but Hull, if we tack on his WHA years)

If we only ranked based on "career" then Ron Francis is a better player than Mario Lemieux.


Last edited by RabbinsDuck: 10-28-2009 at 04:04 PM.
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Old
10-28-2009, 04:25 PM
  #78
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I'm thinking Hull but I have to defend Jagr here, after thinking about it, it's much closer than I used to believe. Jagr has 5 scoring titles, and a majority of them were flat out dominant. Even his 96 point Art Ross was incredibly dominant, he missed 20 games. Hull won one of his scoring titles by one point, and the other he was actually tied.

Jagr was also carrying his team during most of his prime... he didn't have a Mikita on his team when he blew out the league in '99. Mikita usually led the Hawks in scoring, not Hull. Jagr did have Lemieux occasionally, but his most dominant years came without him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by homesick
Would Jagr score as much if he had to face one of Roy, Hasek, Broduer, Belfour, or Turco for 82 games? I think not.
Hull played against the one of the Johnny Bower, Jacques Plante, Gerry Cheevers, and Ed Giacomin almost every game.
The league was deep and Hull was firing at 6 elite goalies... but so was everyone else. It's about comparing peers to peers, scorers to scorers. If Jagr and everyone else were shooting on Brodeur every game, he'd still dominate his peers.

Jagr faced stiffer competition with more elite scorers from more mature hockey nations. Sakic, Lindros, and Euros Selanne, Bure and Forsberg were runners-up to Jagr for the Ross, 3 first-ballot HOFers and Lindros who played like a HOF at the time... 2 of Hull's 3 scoring titles were over non-HOFers Bobby Rousseau and Bronco Horvath.

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Old
10-28-2009, 04:52 PM
  #79
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Easy look at it:

Bobby Hull is the best Left Winger of all time.

Jaromir Jagr isn't the best Right Winger of all time.

Gordie Howe or Maurice Richard is. Could argue with Lafleur and Bossy.


Bobby Hull is/was a better hockey player. Its close tho.

And oh, sorry if I offended some AO-lover, but Bobby Hull is the best LW of all time and AO will need to do a lot to overpass him.

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Old
10-28-2009, 04:54 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Jagr faced stiffer competition with more elite scorers from more mature hockey nations. Sakic, Lindros, and Euros Selanne, Bure and Forsberg were runners-up to Jagr for the Ross, 3 first-ballot HOFers and Lindros who played like a HOF at the time... 2 of Hull's 3 scoring titles were over non-HOFers Bobby Rousseau and Bronco Horvath.
How can you say Sakic, Lindros, Selanne, Bure, Forsberg were stiffer competition than Howe, Mikita, Beliveau, Bathgate, Geoffrion, and Mahovlich?

Not one player on your list is better than the first 3 I listed.

Hull was beating out all of those players when he was winning a record number of goal scoring titles and a few Art Ross to go along with them. Just because those players weren't the runner-up when Hull won doesn't mean they weren't in league.

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Old
10-28-2009, 04:59 PM
  #81
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I really hate how HF likes to compare players in different eras. It's completely unfair. Especially comparing a guy like Bobby Hull who played so long ago that nobody here even got to see him play. All you have to go on is stats and they favor Hull by a decent amount. If I'm picking a player to start a team with right now though at the start of their career? I'd have to go with Jagr. Hull had the better career and dominated his peers better than Jagr, so in that sense he was "better" than Jagr but I don't totally agree with looking at it that way.

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Old
10-28-2009, 05:05 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
.




Jagr faced stiffer competition with more elite scorers from more mature hockey nations. Sakic, Lindros, and Euros Selanne, Bure and Forsberg were runners-up to Jagr for the Ross, 3 first-ballot HOFers and Lindros who played like a HOF at the time... 2 of Hull's 3 scoring titles were over non-HOFers Bobby Rousseau and Bronco Horvath.
Don't see much importance in who was runner-up But if having HOF competition is important Here is Hull's in his AR years.

In 65-66, Hull was 19 points ahead of Rousseau who was tied for second with HOFER Mikita. Rounding out the top 5 were HOFers Beliveau & Howe.

In 59-60, after Horvath came HOFERS Beliveau, Bathgate, H.Richard & Howe.

In 61-62, it was HOFERS Bathgate, Mikita, Mahovolich, Richard.

Pretty tough AR competition. Much stronger than what Jagr had to deal with.

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Old
10-28-2009, 05:25 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post

Pretty tough AR competition. Much stronger than what Jagr had to deal with.
I do agree with this statement, but I think that it needs some clarification. On a year-to-year basis, Jagr faced pretty good competition. However, for some reason, many of the offensive stars of the dead puck era were injury prone. Therefore, they were unable to put up a string of good seasons and are hurt in an all-time sense.

Who knows where Lindros, Forsberg, Kariya, Naslund, etc would end up if they weren't prone to injuries?

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Old
10-28-2009, 05:53 PM
  #84
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Jagr

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Old
10-28-2009, 07:31 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I do agree with this statement, but I think that it needs some clarification. On a year-to-year basis, Jagr faced pretty good competition. However, for some reason, many of the offensive stars of the dead puck era were injury prone. Therefore, they were unable to put up a string of good seasons and are hurt in an all-time sense.

Who knows where Lindros, Forsberg, Kariya, Naslund, etc would end up if they weren't prone to injuries?
Even with the migration of overseas players the league is a lot more diluted talent wise now(30 teams) than it was when Hull was playing(6 teams).

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Old
10-28-2009, 08:17 PM
  #86
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A few posts in this thread highlight another problem I have with comparing players across eras. The argument often becomes, at least in part, circular in nature.

Why was X better than Y? Well because X dominated against A-B-C and Y dominated against D-E-F, and A-B-C are ranked higher than D-E-F. Why is A better than D? Well because A competed against B-C-X and D competed against E-F-Y, and the first trio is ranked higher, etc... Circular argument.

As mentioned by another poster, this problem is compounded by the fact that the rankings (such as those on the history board) are determined not only by peak but also by career, which has nothing to do with how a player was doing at his absolute best. The likes of Forsberg, Lindros, Kariya, Bure can give nearly any player in history a run for his money at their absolute best, which they were often at when they were competing with Jagr for those scoring titles, even if their careers didn't stack up in the long run. The reality is, during those years, they weren't inferior competition by any stretch.

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Old
10-28-2009, 08:19 PM
  #87
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I read the title as "Jaromir Jagr vs Bobby Hill" and I thought this was going to be an amazing thread.

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Old
10-28-2009, 08:19 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
Again, being 30 isn't past your prime.
That's arguably the case today. However, when Hull played, players were almost always past their prime by age 30.

During the span of Hull's career (1958-1972), there were only 4 fifty-goal seasons by players aged 30+. Hull singlehandedly had two of them. There were just 10 forty-goal seasons by players aged 30+. Hull had three of them.

====

I think Hull gets underrated as a playoff performer (probably because he only played on one team that won a Stanley Cup). During his playoff career (1959-1972), Hull ranks first in goals by a 27% margin (ahead of Beliveau, Mahovlich and Mikita) and first in points by a 17% margin (ahead of Beliveau, Mikita and Mahovlich).

Jagr, I think, is also underrated as a playoff performer (probably because he never played on a team that won a Stanley Cup without Lemieux). Jagr is 2nd to Sakic in goals and points, and is 4th to Fedorov, Lidstrom and Forsberg in assists. In terms of total career value, there's strong evidence that Hull was a better playoff performer than Jagr (looking only at offense).

Let's look at Hull on a per-game basis. Let's also exclude 1959, when he played in the playoffs despite clearly being before his prime. (Yes, I make a similar adjustment for Jagr to be fair). Compared to all other playoff performers, >50 gp, between 1960 and 1972, Hull ranks second to Orr in points per game. Hull is about 1% ahead of Howe and Esposito, but there's a huge gap after that. He's 18% ahead of Beliveau and 19% of his teammate Mikita.

Now let's look at Jagr on a per-game basis (and let's also exclude 1991, in an effort to be fair, since he played a lot games while clearly being before his prime). Jagr 3rd in points-per-game (behind two of the four best players of all-time: Gretzky and Lemieux). Jagr is marginally ahead of Messier (2%), Forsberg (3%) and Sakic and Bure (7%).

On a per game basis, both players are "blocked" by three of the best four players of all-time (Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux; Hull only competed against an older, past-his-prime version of Howe). On a per-game basis, I'd give the edge to Hull as he really separated himself from the pack (nearly 20% ahead of the 3rd and 4th closest competitors).

====

Hart trophy voting

Complete info
Hull: 1st (1965), 1st (1966), 2nd (1960), 2nd, (1964), 3rd (1962), 3rd (1967), 3rd (1968), 3rd (1971), 5th (1969), 7th (1972)
Jagr: 1st (1999), 2nd (1995), 2nd (1998), 2nd (2000), 2nd (2006), 3rd (2001), 4th (1996), 13th (1997), 19th (2007)

Hull won more Hart trophies (2-1), has more seasons in the top three (8-6), more seasons in the top five (9-7), and more seasons in the top ten (10-7), despite having a shorter career.

I suspect that some people don't fully appreciate how dominant Bobby Hull was.

Most years as a Hart finalist (top three in voting)
PlayerYears
Gordie Howe12
Wayne Gretzky11
Bobby Hull8
Bobby Orr7
Mario Lemieux7
Eddie Shore7
Jean Beliveau7
Jaromir Jagr6
Maurice Richard6
Dominik Hasek5
Phil Esposito5
Syl Apps5

No, I'm not saying that Hull is better than Orr or Lemieux. However, Hull is in extremely select competition in this important metric and that (combined with his seven goal-scoring titles, excellent playoff performances and three Art Ross trophies) make a good case for him being roughly a top 5-8 player all-time. (Jagr also fares extremely well based on this stat).


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 10-28-2009 at 08:53 PM.
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Old
10-28-2009, 08:35 PM
  #89
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Jagr won 60% of the votes?? Really? That just shows how ignorant many hf'ers have become/are/were as to the history of hockey.

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