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PK......I'm at a loss

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10-28-2009, 01:22 AM
  #1
theYman
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PK......I'm at a loss

The fundamentals of killing penalties is lost on this team. Took me til this point since last year to reach the decision. But it's final. It is what it is and there is nothing that they can do about it it seems. I remember when we were in the top 10 over 80% every year with pk. not anymore.

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10-28-2009, 01:24 AM
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Forwards who block shots.
The wings aren't among the best at this.

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10-28-2009, 01:28 AM
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theYman
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Forwards who block shots.
The wings aren't among the best at this.
That's one of the things I don't get. Were they just lucky that the pucks never went years ago or they just don't do it anymore? Was Hasek really that good a man down when we had him.

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10-28-2009, 04:17 AM
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I think you are underestimating the effect a good or a bad goalie can have on a team's PK. I mean, maybe I'm missing something but colorado and ottawa don't have particularly great PK forwards that I can think of.

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10-28-2009, 08:26 AM
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detredWINgs
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I'm actually not too worried about the PK. Their PK right now is about 74%, but if you discount the first 2 games against the Blues, its actually 79.3%, which ranks about 14th in the NHL if I'm not mistaken.

Also, Ericsson really shouldn't be used in penalty killing situations, yet. Hes terrible positionally at even strength, so it boggles the mind why Babcock would think he'd be capable on the penalty kill. Its like Babcock sees a big, Swedish defenseman, and thinks he's Lilja's protege.

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10-28-2009, 08:31 AM
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@theYman

The PK has been good up until last night..I just see last night as a bad defensive game on both teams.. At least we are now seeing them shoot the puck more from all angles..Datsyuk would have never scored the goal btwn the legs if they had the team from last year. Kronwall's goal equals the same thing. He would have waited or gone around the net w it...

Just hope the PK can re-group

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10-28-2009, 09:01 AM
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Last night the PKing was fine. The Schneider blast was one Howard should've had and when you open yourself up to a 5 on 3 you almost expect to get scored on.

Prior to tonight the Wings had a good streak going for not allowing PP goals.

If Howard can play like he did last night for a while, you'll see the PK % start going up steadily.

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10-28-2009, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
I'm actually not too worried about the PK. Their PK right now is about 74%, but if you discount the first 2 games against the Blues, its actually 79.3%, which ranks about 14th in the NHL if I'm not mistaken.

Also, Ericsson really shouldn't be used in penalty killing situations, yet. Hes terrible positionally at even strength, so it boggles the mind why Babcock would think he'd be capable on the penalty kill. Its like Babcock sees a big, Swedish defenseman, and thinks he's Lilja's protege.

Lilja protege? Lordy help us all......

I mean, in the grand scheme of things, will anyone remember Lillypads as one of the great, shutdown D, where no foe would dare enter the Wings defensive zone--- or else?

He found a niche on this team, but it's hardly protege-able material. IMO.

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10-28-2009, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Last night the PKing was fine. The Schneider blast was one Howard should've had and when you open yourself up to a 5 on 3 you almost expect to get scored on.

Prior to tonight the Wings had a good streak going for not allowing PP goals.

If Howard can play like he did last night for a while, you'll see the PK % start going up steadily.
Some good goaltending will definitely help and it's not just the weak goals that are no longer going in. Last season, in the playoffs, Ozzy got his game around and our PK still sucked (73%). Have to think it was because our PK had been a mess all season and a lot of problems were masked by the bad goaltending. If Howard can step in and solidify us between the pipes, it'll allow the team to start working on other things.

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10-28-2009, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunkspleen View Post
I think you are underestimating the effect a good or a bad goalie can have on a team's PK. I mean, maybe I'm missing something but colorado and ottawa don't have particularly great PK forwards that I can think of.
This and ya why exactly is Ericcson getting PK mintues?

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10-28-2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YaAnotherWingsFaN View Post
This and ya why exactly is Ericcson getting PK mintues?
A few reasons:

1. he has to learn eventually how to be a pk guy and with his frame one would think he could end up being a damn good player on the pk. growing pains are just that..

2. our pk prior to the past few games has been horrendous. you need to change things up and babcock is just trying it. who knows, maybe big E will get better.


I dont think he's a very good PK guy just yet but ill give him a few weeks to get his act going... couldnt hurt, our PK the past few years has been ****.

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10-28-2009, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Lilja protege? Lordy help us all......

I mean, in the grand scheme of things, will anyone remember Lillypads as one of the great, shutdown D, where no foe would dare enter the Wings defensive zone--- or else?

He found a niche on this team, but it's hardly protege-able material. IMO.
Tis the season:



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10-28-2009, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
A few reasons:

1. he has to learn eventually how to be a pk guy and with his frame one would think he could end up being a damn good player on the pk. growing pains are just that..

2. our pk prior to the past few games has been horrendous. you need to change things up and babcock is just trying it. who knows, maybe big E will get better.


I dont think he's a very good PK guy just yet but ill give him a few weeks to get his act going... couldnt hurt, our PK the past few years has been ****.
Yea all very good points.... but not only has he not looked good on the PK, but he's not looked good at all in any situation. I think Big Rig gonna be a solid top 4 eventually but he's really got to work on his positioning and decision making ie lack of. Hopefully its not the dreaded sophomore slump and just a bit a rust with the start of a new season.

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10-28-2009, 05:48 PM
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WTF!
How did Lilja become so bloody beloved around here?
A defensive defenseman prone to brutal giveaways? A 6'3 defenseman who rarely hits hard and who only sometimes plays physical in front of the net.
What did I miss?

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10-29-2009, 09:24 AM
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sarcastro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
WTF!
How did Lilja become so bloody beloved around here?
A defensive defenseman prone to brutal giveaways? A 6'3 defenseman who rarely hits hard and who only sometimes plays physical in front of the net.
What did I miss?
It was his devastating PK abilities that have people swooning for him. I mean, come on. They killed off 77.70% of penalties before his injury last year and after he went down, they only managed to kill off 81.03%.


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10-29-2009, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YaAnotherWingsFaN View Post
Yea all very good points.... but not only has he not looked good on the PK, but he's not looked good at all in any situation. I think Big Rig gonna be a solid top 4 eventually but he's really got to work on his positioning and decision making ie lack of. Hopefully its not the dreaded sophomore slump and just a bit a rust with the start of a new season.
true but you need to live and learn. there's just some things you cannot learn in practice.

i think this is going to be one of those 'it sucks now' but will show a great silver lining later... of course im also optimistic he doesnt turn into kuznetsov.. lol

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10-29-2009, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
It was his devastating PK abilities that have people swooning for him. I mean, come on. They killed off 77.70% of penalties before his injury last year and after he went down, they only managed to kill off 81.03%.









Absence does make the heart grow fonder, I suppose.

Still wish they would have kept the younger, bigger*, cheaper guy with more of an upside. Grrrrrrrrrr.

*Lilja is 6'3" and 230 lbs; Q is 6'1" and 207..... yet I always felt like he played a "bigger" style of game.

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10-29-2009, 01:31 PM
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detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Lilja protege? Lordy help us all......

I mean, in the grand scheme of things, will anyone remember Lillypads as one of the great, shutdown D, where no foe would dare enter the Wings defensive zone--- or else?

He found a niche on this team, but it's hardly protege-able material. IMO.
I don't think you quite know what protege means.

"A person who is guided and supported by an older and more experienced or influential person."

You're lost if you don't think Babcock was hoping Ericsson would be the moderately physical, team-leading shot blocker, PK specialist that Lilja was to this team this season. Yes, there are bigger plans for Ericsson in the future, but Ericsson's current role on this team was to essentially do everything that Andreas Lilja did. He doesn't. He sucks at blocking shots, uses the body even less often than Lilja does, and is abysmal on the penalty kill.

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10-29-2009, 01:42 PM
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detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
It was his devastating PK abilities that have people swooning for him. I mean, come on. They killed off 77.70% of penalties before his injury last year and after he went down, they only managed to kill off 81.03%.

You truly are the King of selective stats. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that Lilja went down around the same time that Osgood pulled his head out of his ass. But for good measure, I'll put up some stats that are actually worth a damn..

Kronwall: 1 PP goal against per 6.8 PK minutes
Stuart: 1PP goal against per 7.2 PK minutes
Lidstrom: 1 PP goal against per 7.3 PK minutes
Lilja: 1 PP goal against per 8 PK minutes.

Its also worth noting that Lilja was routinely on the 1st PK pairing, so he was facing the 1st PP unit - typically, the more lethal of the units.

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10-29-2009, 01:45 PM
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theYman
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Last night the PKing was fine. The Schneider blast was one Howard should've had and when you open yourself up to a 5 on 3 you almost expect to get scored on.

Prior to tonight the Wings had a good streak going for not allowing PP goals.

If Howard can play like he did last night for a while, you'll see the PK % start going up steadily.
yeah I know that but most of that came at home. have you looked at our road pk stats lately? we're last at 63% that's atrocious!

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10-29-2009, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
I don't think you quite know what protege means.

"A person who is guided and supported by an older and more experienced or influential person."

You're lost if you don't think Babcock was hoping Ericsson would be the moderately physical, team-leading shot blocker, PK specialist that Lilja was to this team this season. Yes, there are bigger plans for Ericsson in the future, but Ericsson's current role on this team was to essentially do everything that Andreas Lilja did. He doesn't. He sucks at blocking shots, uses the body even less often than Lilja does, and is abysmal on the penalty kill.
I most definitely know what protege means.

Put away your dictionary and don't put words into someone else's mouth. Suggesting someone who doesn't share your opinions is lost isn't something that going to fly around here either. It's a classic attack on the messenger, but more importantly, it's beside the point.

It was never the Wings plan to have Ericsson take Lilja's place at all, but you know, when players get injured and you're limited in cap space, you use who you have in the system. I'm sure in an alternate reality, Holland would've just traded for a solid, stay-at-home veteran D. Protege my ass.

Also, it's really not that hard to be a leading shot blocker on the Wings. It's not one of their more impressive categories.

I love how Lilja wasn't replaceable, but then Ozzie got his head out of his ass, and when that happens, we no longer need Lilja, amirite?

So.... if we had Lilja now, Ozzie's poor performance would be irrelevant, amirite?

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10-29-2009, 02:10 PM
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yeah I know that but most of that came at home. have you looked at our road pk stats lately? we're last at 63% that's atrocious!

New rule on face off placement on penalties coming back to bite the Wings in the ass?

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10-29-2009, 02:44 PM
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detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I most definitely know what protege means.

Put away your dictionary and don't put words into someone else's mouth. Suggesting someone who doesn't share your opinions is lost isn't something that going to fly around here either. It's a classic attack on the messenger, but more importantly, it's beside the point.

It was never the Wings plan to have Ericsson take Lilja's place at all, but you know, when players get injured and you're limited in cap space, you use who you have in the system. I'm sure in an alternate reality, Holland would've just traded for a solid, stay-at-home veteran D. Protege my ass.

Also, it's really not that hard to be a leading shot blocker on the Wings. It's not one of their more impressive categories.
"Lost" is in reference to where you are taking my argument - which is not where it was meant to be taken.

It speaks volumes about Lilja's value that he was essentially degraded by Wings fans, while Ericsson was upheld as the second coming, and yet he can't fill Lilja's shoes - the shoes hes being asked to fill.

As for leading the team in shot blocking, the very fact that you say its not of the Wings more "impressive" categories only emphasizes Lilja's value in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I love how Lilja wasn't replaceable, but then Ozzie got his head out of his ass, and when that happens, we no longer need Lilja, amirite?

So.... if we had Lilja now, Ozzie's poor performance would be irrelevant, amirite?
Interesting how you say I put words in your mouth, and yet you turn around and do the same thing to me.

How did I say Lilja is replaceable merely because Osgood got his head out his ass? Are you insinuating that an 81% penalty kill - which would've had the Wings ranking 17th in the NHL in that department - was a good position to be in? Perhaps if Lilja had remained on the roster and Osgood had started to play well, then maybe we would've be able to *gasp* rank in the upper half of the NHL in penalty killing.

And Lilja most certainly is replaceable, but not by anyone in our system. We've all been around hockey long enough to know that certain players hold higher value to a team than others, merely because they're the only player that can accomplish a certain task. Dallas Drake was animal feed as far as the rest of the NHl was concerned, but he filled a role that no one else on the team could fill, and he endeared himself to the Wings in that respect, too.

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10-29-2009, 03:16 PM
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Holland generally considers who he has to re-sign and weighs that against what else he has in the system. Obviously, their mantra of always valuating the veteran a bit higher since they're a perennial playoff contender means the kid has to knock the vet out, asuming the vet isn't asking for too much money. (e.g., Schneider was deemed to be asking more than the Wings were willing to pay him... That didn't stop them from spending more on Rafalski.)

As such, he tends to stagger salaries. A team never really plans to lose a player longterm to injury, but that's the only reason Ericsson got called up sooner than later. Had Lilja remained healthy, it might be Lebda and Meech that would be getting axed to make room for Ericsson. Once Lilja was lost, Holland had little choice but to keep the remaining three.

I doubt Lilja has ever mentored anyone here, but as any veteran on the team, he has things he can do to help the younger players. Chelios and Lidstrom are/were the mentors to most of the younger guys. How much of that will fall to Raffi, Nik and Stuart, to the extent that each has certain skills (shooting, positional play, checking, etc.).... that is normal under the Wings system.

What I took exception with was your insinuation that I needed a dictionary to understand what protege meant. I most definitely, absolutely, positively know what protege means. Without knowing much about your fellow posters, why even go off on a tack like that? Most of us won't do that to you.

Furthermore, I do disagree that Lilja's value is nearly as high as you place it. Yes, he was leading the team in a couple of stats areas, but he also led the team in bonehead plays and stupid penalties taken for a while. That's okay to the extent that he was being paid as a third pairing guy and he was useful in that role and the top PK pairing role. He did the job he was being paid to do. I seriously doubt that the team will not be able to recover if he never comes back. The loss of a Lidstrom, or even top four guy, is felt a bit more immediately. Lidstrom will never be replaced, btw.

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10-29-2009, 03:35 PM
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detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Holland generally considers who he has to re-sign and weighs that against what else he has in the system. Obviously, their mantra of always valuating the veteran a bit higher since they're a perennial playoff contender means the kid has to knock the vet out, asuming the vet isn't asking for too much money. (e.g., Schneider was deemed to be asking more than the Wings were willing to pay him... That didn't stop them from spending more on Rafalski.)

As such, he tends to stagger salaries. A team never really plans to lose a player longterm to injury, but that's the only reason Ericsson got called up sooner than later. Had Lilja remained healthy, it might be Lebda and Meech that would be getting axed to make room for Ericsson. Once Lilja was lost, Holland had little choice but to keep the remaining three.

I doubt Lilja has ever mentored anyone here, but as any veteran on the team, he has things he can do to help the younger players. Chelios and Lidstrom are/were the mentors to most of the younger guys. How much of that will fall to Raffi, Nik and Stuart, to the extent that each has certain skills (shooting, positional play, checking, etc.).... that is normal under the Wings system.

What I took exception with was your insinuation that I needed a dictionary to understand what protege meant. I most definitely, absolutely, positively know what protege means. Without knowing much about your fellow posters, why even go off on a tack like that? Most of us won't do that to you.

Furthermore, I do disagree that Lilja's value is nearly as high as you place it. Yes, he was leading the team in a couple of stats areas, but he also led the team in bonehead plays and stupid penalties taken for a while. That's okay to the extent that he was being paid as a third pairing guy and he was useful in that role and the top PK pairing role. He did the job he was being paid to do. I seriously doubt that the team will not be able to recover if he never comes back. The loss of a Lidstrom, or even top four guy, is felt a bit more immediately. Lidstrom will never be replaced, btw.
Well then perhaps you anticipate that "protege" should only be reserved for the better veterans, but thats not the case. Hell, it wasn't long ago the Holland said he thought of Abdelkader essentially as Maltby's protege, and yet not one month ago people were calling for Maltby to be waiver fodder.

As for cap space, etc, that's not the issue here. Lilja's value to this team is the issue here.

Regardless, we do disagree on Lilja's value. If anything, Lilja's value to this team has only become more apparent this year. I've already posted the statistics on Ericsson and Lebda's goals against per 60 minutes of ice time, and they're atrocious. Their respective +/- stats, naturally, only back that up. Furthermore, with Osgood not playing well again, and no offense to bail us out, the defensive aspect (including the penalty kill) has only become more fundamental to our game. The fact that Ericsson is on the ice for a PP goal against per 4.5 minutes played so far this year is downright scary. He and Lebda are doing far too much damage to this team in relation to their role as 3rd pairing defenseman, and Osgood is not here to help.


While Lilja did take his fair share of penalties and had plenty of giveaways, those are the complaints of nearly every NHL fanbase across the board when it comes to bottom-pairing NHL defenseman. If it weren't the case, then everyone would have the next Anton Volchenkov playing on their bottom pair. The difference, however, is that stay-at-homers are typically strong in 2 respects: positioning and penalty killing. Thats their bread and butter, and it was Lilja's as well. Right now, not even Rafalski and Kronwall are particularly good at either of those, and Lebda and Ericsson most certainly aren't. As a result, thats a glaring weakness that can't be glossed over with our offense this year.

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