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Fire Paul Holmgren Thread (and related front office screwups) - 09/10 Edition

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03-04-2010, 09:29 AM
  #226
Jester
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Probably giving shooter way to much credit to have this thought process. Wonder if they would talk with x team, say isle, to waive one of their goalies. Assuming they donít get claimed the flyers claim the guy. Then at the draft trade x prospect or pick to the isles for a 7th rd pick to make it worth it to the isles. Even if he get claimed by another team have something worked out.
Ah, would have to look at the specifics, but I don't think anyone you pick up now is eligible to play in the playoffs.

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03-04-2010, 09:31 AM
  #227
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All the time and money gone into making a champion and you just 'give up' at the trade deadline. Weird.

How can he not get fired??

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03-04-2010, 09:35 AM
  #228
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its not that he gave up. there just wasnt any feasible option.


thats still his fault, though.

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03-04-2010, 09:35 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by middletoe View Post
All the time and money gone into making a champion and you just 'give up' at the trade deadline. Weird.

How can he not get fired??
If we don't make it the SCF then I could very easily see him getting fired. Not sure if he would though.

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03-04-2010, 09:43 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
its not that he gave up. there just wasnt any feasible option.


thats still his fault, though.
I would argue that having Leighton and Boucher heading into the playoffs is less of a feasible option. Not saying I'm right, that's just my opinion.

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03-04-2010, 09:46 AM
  #231
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If we don't make it the SCF then I could very easily see him getting fired. Not sure if he would though.
If they make the playoffs, I'd be surprised if they won more than two games. I'd be shocked if they won a series.

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03-04-2010, 09:49 AM
  #232
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Holmgren was correct not to make any moves at the deadline. There was nothing he could have done that would have improved the team without giving up Giroux or JVR. However, how did we get into this situation? Up against the cap, two AHL goalies, no draft picks to trade, and no prospect depth? OK, it sucks our starter got injured, but we had no plan B, and Emery was a major question mark to begin with. This situation is all Holmgren's creation, but at least he didnt make it worse.

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03-04-2010, 09:51 AM
  #233
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I bet if Emery wasn't hurt and was at least playing average nobody would want Holmgrem fired.

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03-04-2010, 09:56 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by JCannon18 View Post
I bet if Emery wasn't hurt and was at least playing average nobody would want Holmgrem fired.
Um, yeah... but that's not what happened, huh?

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03-04-2010, 10:00 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by middletoe View Post
I would argue that having Leighton and Boucher heading into the playoffs is less of a feasible option. Not saying I'm right, that's just my opinion.

nope. you're right. there just wasnt anything that could be done. so now we get to ride this flaming ****-train into a head on collision with the Playoff Express, assuming it doesnt fall off the tracks on the way.

like this:



or from the team's perspective:


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03-04-2010, 10:04 AM
  #236
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Um, yeah... but that's not what happened, huh?
I know. I think Holmgrem is off his rocker for not getting any goalie.

But I'm just pointing out how Emery's injury has seriously called Holmgrems managing skills into question.

Shoulda signed Anderson...

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03-04-2010, 10:08 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by JCannon18 View Post
I know. I think Holmgrem is off his rocker for not getting any goalie.

But I'm just pointing out how Emery's injury has seriously called Holmgrems managing skills into question.

Shoulda signed Anderson...
Signing Emery was not the problem. You can't really see a career ending bone disease obviously, and he played well for use when he was healthy.

The problem is Homer left himself in a position where he couldnt go out and get someone else. Every GM needs to leave themselves options, and we are suffering because of Homer's lack of foresight.

However, one bright spot is that Homer WAS able to fire Stevens and bring in the RIGHT man for the job. I couldnt be happier with Laviolette and I REALLY hope he sticks around.

Pronger and Laviolette are easily the 2 biggest additions to the club this year, and hopefully Leino (who was acquired before the deadline) can play well when he gets time.

If this club does anything with Leighton in net, we can thank Laviolette in large part.

I still want Homer fired in the offseason, or at let have him show some sign that he can fix this teams situation and leave himself with options down the road for when players get injured.

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03-04-2010, 10:09 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by JCannon18 View Post
I know. I think Holmgrem is off his rocker for not getting any goalie.

But I'm just pointing out how Emery's injury has seriously called Holmgrems managing skills into question.

Shoulda signed Anderson...


Would've been a tremendous pick up. Homer's managerial skills have been questioned by many from way back, this is their moment in the sun.

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03-04-2010, 10:09 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by JCannon18 View Post
I know. I think Holmgrem is off his rocker for not getting any goalie.

But I'm just pointing out how Emery's injury has seriously called Holmgrems managing skills into question.

Shoulda signed Anderson...
...Holmgren's managing skills were called into question when he signed Emery and created this whole situation in goal. And, more importantly, there was much discussion around here that if Emery got hurt Holmgren was setting us up to be absolutely effed. Then, he went and blew valuable cap space on Randy Jones, which may have helped us out in dealing with our goalie situation (it certainly would have given us greater flexibility).

So, you got that for starters... Holmgren's management of this season from beginning to now set up this scenario and people questioned it well in advance on these grounds. Similar to last year's deadline debacle, this was an unfortunately easy event to predict as a possibility.

As to signing someone else... I, for one, was never happy with the Emery plan and would have much preferred Anderson, or one of the other goalies that spent last year in the NHL. But that was just me, and that is a matter of preference rather than a substantive analysis of Emery's game against theirs. Clearly if we had signed Anderson, we would be in great shape right now.

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03-04-2010, 10:19 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Signing Emery was not the problem.
You kidding right? The entire NHL was laughing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
You can't really see a career ending bone disease obviously, and he played well for use when he was healthy.
What about 1st injury and playing through the 1st injury?

He played well? For 10-15 games, true. He did not create any distractions, the only plus.

Emery goofed on us, we did not give him bone disease.

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03-04-2010, 10:22 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...Holmgren's managing skills were called into question when he signed Emery and created this whole situation in goal. And, more importantly, there was much discussion around here that if Emery got hurt Holmgren was setting us up to be absolutely effed. Then, he went and blew valuable cap space on Randy Jones, which may have helped us out in dealing with our goalie situation (it certainly would have given us greater flexibility).

So, you got that for starters... Holmgren's management of this season from beginning to now set up this scenario and people questioned it well in advance on these grounds. Similar to last year's deadline debacle, this was an unfortunately easy event to predict as a possibility.

As to signing someone else... I, for one, was never happy with the Emery plan and would have much preferred Anderson, or one of the other goalies that spent last year in the NHL. But that was just me, and that is a matter of preference rather than a substantive analysis of Emery's game against theirs. Clearly if we had signed Anderson, we would be in great shape right now.
Maybe. Isn't Phillie a tough place to thrive as a goalie. I thought the media, and fans, were brutal on them there.

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03-04-2010, 10:24 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
You kidding right? The entire NHL was laughing.
What about 1st injury and playing through the 1st injury?

He played well? For 10-15 games, true. He did not create any distractions, the only plus.

Emery goofed on us, we did not give him bone disease.
haha nice

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03-04-2010, 10:24 AM
  #243
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Maybe. Isn't Phillie a tough place to thrive as a goalie. I thought the media, and fans, were brutal on them there.
I think this is overdone. It's demanding, but if you're playing well it's gravy.

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03-04-2010, 10:24 AM
  #244
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You kidding right? The entire NHL was laughing.
What about 1st injury and playing through the 1st injury?

He played well? For 10-15 games, true. He did not create any distractions, the only plus.

Emery goofed on us, we did not give him bone disease.
Clarkie, is that you?

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03-04-2010, 10:30 AM
  #245
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When an average fan can see down the line the problems that will a rise, how can these so called hockey people not? It is funny how most predicted what will happen yet the professionals donít have the foresight to even remotely see any of this, that is the scary part or shooter just flat out ignores his people. The jones thing is still so funny. Add that and they could have made a move or 2. I really want to hear shooters excuse when they miss the playoffs.

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03-04-2010, 10:40 AM
  #246
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I am sure this has been said I dont feel like reading thru 5 pages of this thread, but heres my opinion. Paul Holmgren sucks. Any decision he made yesterday is his fault and hurts the team. The one he chose was the best one, but not a good one. Its his fault we have no assets to trade, no cap space to work with, and have half a team full of underacheiving players with HUGE contracts. Most players are overpaid and have NTC/NMC's which makes moving a Briere or Hartnell impossible. Making moves like Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo(and I LOVE Carcillo and i agree its a bad trade), or putting Jones on re-entry waivers is so juvinile. This isnt NHL 10. It doesnt work this way. He had to give another 1st round pick with the 2 (Sbisa im counting) for pronger just to get rid of Lupuls horrid deal. Also announcing Emery was done for the year on the eve of the deadline told the other GMs knowing Leighton is our guy and we obviously needed an upgrade. Well Florida did what I expected them to do. the asked Holmgren to bend over drop his pants and spread em if he wanted Vokoun, and thankfully he didn't. He gets praise for that. And also for not making any other kind of ridiculous move. Nothing is better than something at this point. The only tradeable players are assets Id like to keep (aside from Coburn I wouldnt have minded losing him for something). As a fan we have to sit back and pray leighton can get the job done, and just have faith and beleive. We are all more than just fans and know logistically that wont happen. And if it doesnt I personally wouldnt mind Holmgren getting replaced (he is a great judge of talent Id keep him in the organization) by a new GM and that guy kind of blowing everything up(Keep a core of Richards, Carter, Giroux, JvR and one of Pronger and Timonen), and starting anew with cap space and assests (assuming they get prospects and picks in return in most deals). I hate saying rebuild, but with the situation Holmgren has this team in, they are pretty much stuck with this for a few years. this team is a few pieces short of a cup contender, and I dont think they can get hose pieces without giving too much up. Time to hit reset.

I also want to add, it is going to be difficult (and extremely discouraging) to beat our main competition as they all got better the passed few weeks, and we I would say got worse (losing Emery). Picking up Leino was nice, as well as Krajeck, but Washington got better as did Pittsburgh and NJ. Gonna be tough.


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03-04-2010, 10:40 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
When an average fan can see down the line the problems that will a rise, how can these so called hockey people not? It is funny how most predicted what will happen yet the professionals donít have the foresight to even remotely see any of this, that is the scary part or shooter just flat out ignores his people. The jones thing is still so funny. Add that and they could have made a move or 2. I really want to hear shooters excuse when they miss the playoffs.
I'll already give you an answer. It'll be something like "well, qualifying for the playoffs now is harder than ever because there is parity around the league. We assembled what we thought was the best team possible, but it's clear that the best wasn't good enough. Sometimes, the chips just don't fall in your favour. Nobody ever said making the playoffs was a guarantee."

Someone will then ask him if maybe he should have secured the goaltending position and his response will be something like "We did address the goaltending situation last season. We signed Ray Emery because we believed he was a Stanley Cup caliber goalie. Nobody expected Ray to have avascular necrosis. Once we found out what the diagnosis was, we tried to address the goaltending, but we felt comfortable with Leighton and Boucher, two capable and proven goaltenders in the NHL. We didn't feel the need to go out and acquire a top goaltender like Vokoun or go after a promising youngster like Halak or Schneider simply because the asking price was too high and we just didn't have the assets."

Then we can expect a question about letting Jones come through on re-entry waivers and the cap hit that that took and the answer will be "Randy Jones is an excellent team player and a good hockey player. We felt that as an organization we owed it to Randy to bring him up and find him a place on an NHL roster. We knew the chances bringing him through waivers and while we're sad that we lost Randy, we also did right by Randy. We might have hurt ourselves in the process by taking the cap hit, but it's important to show players that this franchise cares about them and that we're willing to do what it takes to look after them. I'm sure Randy Jones will forever be grateful for what the Philadelphia Flyers did for his career."

And then someone will rush the podium and club Holmgren upside the head with a black jack and knock some sense into him and he then realizes just how much he screwed this franchise and quits on the spot. The End. Yay!!!!!

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03-04-2010, 10:42 AM
  #248
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When an average fan can see down the line the problems that will a rise, how can these so called hockey people not? It is funny how most predicted what will happen yet the professionals donít have the foresight to even remotely see any of this, that is the scary part or shooter just flat out ignores his people. The jones thing is still so funny. Add that and they could have made a move or 2. I really want to hear shooters excuse when they miss the playoffs.
You will notice that other sports have started going the route of hiring outsiders that have never played the sport on a professional level but have excellent analytic minds who can also easily understand the intricacies of modern legal contracts (such as CBAs and the like) rather than promoting from within by turning scouts, coaches, or former players into GMs. At the heart of the job, a GM needs to weigh variables, understand complex concepts/systems, and make the hard decisions. Nothing about that really requires mastery of the sport. Just a sound mind.

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03-04-2010, 10:48 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
You kidding right? The entire NHL was laughing.
What about 1st injury and playing through the 1st injury?

He played well? For 10-15 games, true. He did not create any distractions, the only plus.

Emery goofed on us, we did not give him bone disease.
Why would I give a **** if Habs or Toronto fans laugh at us for signing Emery? I had little problem with the signing to be honest. Like I said, I have a problem with Homer not having any backup plan besides waivers. If you take a gamble on a guy like Emery (he was a low risk, high reward gamble), then you NEED a FREAKING Plan B not named BRIAN BOUCHER. At least have some picks or prospects that you can dangle mid-season if things go awry. Homer had nothing and we paid for it.

Emery's injuries are not his fault. Holmer's lack of a Plan B is my problem. If Emery was healthy, I fully expect him to be your typical average goalie right now. And Emery has Stanley Cup Finals experience which is something we lack.

Not to mention Emery was 26 when we signed him, if he played well, he could have been a legit long-term solution here. I know goalie "prospects" who are freaking 27 ALREADY. Emery was 26 and established in both the NHL and KHL.

Like I told some Pens fan, Emery was not in the KHL because of his play, but because of his attitude. It was a good lesson for him. He had no attitude problems since arriving here.

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03-04-2010, 10:54 AM
  #250
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I was just thinking about how Bobby Clarke was badmouthing teams a while back that did poorly and got high picks. These are the same teams they'd be looking to get a goalie from now.

Maybe these teams made them offers they couldn't accept cuz they want to watch the Flyers (with all their smugness) crash and burn ... which they most likely will. Just a thought.

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