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Fire Paul Holmgren Thread (and related front office screwups) - 09/10 Edition

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Old
03-05-2010, 01:04 AM
  #326
FlyersGuy69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
Really the problem is Snyder who is sort of a back seat GM who never takes the blame and cant be fired anyway.
this.

I have believed this for years. he is also responsible for the atrocity known as the 76ers. he got insecure that Croce wanted to take overall control of the Sixers and had to flex his muscles and force Croce out. how bout them Sixers...

unfortunately, because I love the guy, but I don't think the Flyers will ever win a Cup with Snider as owner.

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03-05-2010, 01:13 AM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Well we can all hope for that. I was just referancing Holmgren being the GM of the Flyers as long as Clarke was. If Holmgren continues to go down this road how much longer can Snider ignore the failures?
Since getting the job he's gone to the conference finals after being the worst team in the league, and lost to the Stanley Cup Champs the next year. You can debate how much credit he deserves for that turn around, and you can criticize his decisions individually, but his team has had decent success under during his brief tenure.

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03-05-2010, 03:03 AM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Since getting the job he's gone to the conference finals after being the worst team in the league, and lost to the Stanley Cup Champs the next year. You can debate how much credit he deserves for that turn around, and you can criticize his decisions individually, but his team has had decent success under during his brief tenure.
Let's not forget that after being the worst team in the league, Holmgren had money to burn, young players in place to make the jump forward, and had made some really good trades. Yes, they were a last place team, but the Flyers had a lot of good players already in place and once Holmgren added Briere, Timonen, Hartnell, Lupul, and Smith to the mix, they were only going to get better. Already in Philadelphia was Gagne, Knuble, Carter, Richards, Umberger, Upshall, Coburn, Hatcher, Parent, and Biron. That's a lot of good players already in place. The last place turn around was easy to predict.

However, after that turn around is when the problems came. Holmgren had spent so much money that he didn't have any sort of contingency plan in place in case his hands were tied. He ended up dealing decent players (Upshall, Umberger) and draft picks (five 2nd round picks) in order to cover up for his mistakes. As for the Pronger trade, he tried hitting a home run in June with once again, no contingency plan in place. Instead, the Flyers saw their number one goaltender go down with a possible career ending injury and Holmgren had nothing in place in terms of contingency plan on how to replace his fallen netminder. Instead, the Flyers now have to sink or swim with a waiver wire acquisition as a goaltender.

This was the same GM who said that the Flyers "needed" that hammer/stopper in Pronger and that the deal was made as Stanley Cup or bust. For that reason, as well his drunken spending fits and having no real assets in place, he should very well be fired.

The man has run the team into the ground. He's locked at least six guys into no trade/no move contracts, he has no leverage with regards to signing any free agents this off season, he has no pieces available to make any significant trade to improve the goaltending situation, yet we're all being lead to believe that this team can compete for the Stanley Cup. I might be a pessimist, but this team has no chance of winning a Stanley Cup as long as our starting goaltender is a waiver wire acquisition. On top of that, we only have three solid defensemen (Coburn is a headcase, Parent is always hurt and Krajicek has only played a handful of games - too early to determine if he's the real deal or not). You simply can't win the Stanley Cup with three capable defensemen and a waiver wire acquisition as a goaltender. You just can't.

Now, we get to watch this off season as other teams around the Flyers get to rearm and get better and we get to watch the Flyers be the Flyers because Holmgren has locked in so many bad contracts that no team is going to want to touch them. He has really buggered this franchise with his moves and yes, he deserves to be fired.

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Old
03-05-2010, 12:35 PM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Since getting the job he's gone to the conference finals after being the worst team in the league, and lost to the Stanley Cup Champs the next year. You can debate how much credit he deserves for that turn around, and you can criticize his decisions individually, but his team has had decent success under during his brief tenure.
he had all that money to spend on free agents.
He gave Briere a bad contract. gave Hartnell a questionable one and did get the Timonen one right.
From the Jones contract because he didnt want to take him to arbitration to what we had this year at the deadline. No need to list everything. I am sick of beating a dead horse. The guy is not a good GM. period.
Edit: The Pronger trade is still up in the air. If we dont win the cup in 3 years its going to be a bad trade.

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03-05-2010, 01:13 PM
  #330
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If Homer gets thrown down the toilet, who'd be the new GM?

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03-05-2010, 01:23 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRiles View Post
If Homer gets thrown down the toilet, who'd be the new GM?
Realistically: Someone from within the Organization.

Pipe Dream: A real GM from within the hockey world. and understaands finances.

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03-05-2010, 01:39 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
he had all that money to spend on free agents.
He gave Briere a bad contract. gave Hartnell a questionable one and did get the Timonen one right.
From the Jones contract because he didnt want to take him to arbitration to what we had this year at the deadline. No need to list everything. I am sick of beating a dead horse. The guy is not a good GM. period.
Edit: The Pronger trade is still up in the air. If we dont win the cup in 3 years its going to be a bad trade.
He should be called The Timonen and refer to himself like that, in the third person.

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03-05-2010, 01:49 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRiles View Post
If Homer gets thrown down the toilet, who'd be the new GM?
Steve Yzerman. He's ready to become a GM and Ken Holland isn't in any rush to move on in Detroit. Yzerman has done his due dilligence in Detroit and has learned from one of the best. He'd also be a much needed fresh set of eyes within this organization.

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03-05-2010, 01:51 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Steve Yzerman. He's ready to become a GM and Ken Holland isn't in any rush to move on in Detroit. Yzerman has done his due dilligence in Detroit and has learned from one of the best. He'd also be a much needed fresh set of eyes within this organization.
And he is also Steve Yzerman.

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03-05-2010, 01:55 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Realistically: Someone from within the Organization.

Pipe Dream: A real GM from within the hockey world. and understaands finances.
homer has assistants who are supposed to understand finances and the cap, if you think homer is 100% at fault.. well..

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Old
03-05-2010, 02:03 PM
  #336
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why is everyone blaming homer for issue directly? if you are going to blame him, do it for creating the issue by hiring incompetent people, amirite?

homer's #1 priority is scouting, negotiating and signing. the numbers are all coming from someone else.


Last edited by GKJ: 03-05-2010 at 09:20 PM. Reason: QDP
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Old
03-05-2010, 02:05 PM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRiles View Post
If Homer gets thrown down the toilet, who'd be the new GM?
Ron Hextall

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Old
03-05-2010, 02:06 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
homer has assistants who are supposed to understand finances and the cap, if you think homer is 100% at fault.. well..
He also has team doctors who understand injuries and healing a lot better than he does.

Cap Guy: Well, after looking at our situation, I'd say we really shouldn't give Randy/Danny/Joffrey/Scott this contract. It seems--

Holmgren: He has to get paid, right?

Cap Guy: Of course.

Holmgren: And we have the money to give him, right?

Cap Guy: Yes, but if we pay him this much, it would limit our future moves.

Holmgren: The cap doesn't really matter though, right?

Cap Guy: ...

Holmgren: We should pay him that, isn't that what you think?

Cap Guy: (gulp)

Holmgren: Good, I'm glad we're seeing eye to eye.


Feel free to replace 'Cap Guy' with 'Doctor' and any issues regarding 'money' and 'the cap' with specific injuries.

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03-05-2010, 02:33 PM
  #339
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I'm starting to turn on him.
Quote:
"If we're fortunate enough to get into the playoffs and have to play one of those teams, we would have had our hands full before, but if we're in that position we're certainly going to show up and play."
"Fortunate"? Could you be any more pessimistic and unaccountable? What the ****

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03-05-2010, 02:49 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
moron? wow.

why is everyone blaming homer for issue directly? if you are going to blame him, do it for creating the issue by hiring incompetent people, amirite?

homer's #1 priority is scouting, negotiating and signing. the numbers are all coming from someone else.
And he sucks at two out of the three. So in other words he sucks at 66% of his job.

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03-05-2010, 03:02 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
moron? wow.

why is everyone blaming homer for issue directly? if you are going to blame him, do it for creating the issue by hiring incompetent people, amirite?

homer's #1 priority is scouting, negotiating and signing. the numbers are all coming from someone else.
Homer's #1 priority should have nothing to do with scouting, for starters. That's the #1 priority of scouts and the Asst GMs.

Homer's #1 priority is managing the Flyers...that includes managing the cap, and signing various players (with negotiations built in) to play for the Flyers. Prospect development and all that is a distant 2nd to the job that is the Flyers as a team.

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03-05-2010, 03:12 PM
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Homer's #1 priority should have nothing to do with scouting, for starters. That's the #1 priority of scouts and the Asst GMs.

Homer's #1 priority is managing the Flyers...that includes managing the cap, and signing various players (with negotiations built in) to play for the Flyers. Prospect development and all that is a distant 2nd to the job that is the Flyers as a team.
when homer wants to make a trade you better believe he scouts the other team's players. that is what i was alluding to.

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03-05-2010, 03:15 PM
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
when homer wants to make a trade you better believe he scouts the other team's players. that is what i was alluding to.
No, that's the scouts' job. Sure the GM can be somewhat involved, but ultimately, that's not his job. Look at Daryl Morey in Houston, he's the GM, but he has a geek army that crunches most of the numbers and comes up with new formulas and then it's his job to evaluate it. I believe Ken Holland runs a very similar office and we should as well if we aren't.

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03-05-2010, 03:17 PM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
when homer wants to make a trade you better believe he scouts the other team's players. that is what i was alluding to.
...Homer has to worry about potential trades with 29 other teams. Do you honestly believe he's really "scouting" those players? Someone might pop a tape in for him, but he didn't scout 'em...he's handed scouting reports by the guys that scouted 'em. If it's a NHL player that they're talking about, he should be pretty familiar with him on his own, and then have a scouting report from a scout.

If he's wasting time scouting players...he isn't doing his actual job.

Only time it makes sense for a GM to do that is when his team is going down the pooper and its time to look at lottery players.

If scouting was a big part of being a GM, then Holmgren would be a very good GM...because he is a very good scout, IMO. However, that's the job of Asst GMs.

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03-05-2010, 03:20 PM
  #345
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You guys are arguing semantics. A GM might not be required to go to games and do the actual number crunching, but he should have a decent awareness of players abilities by doing those evaluations on a regular basis, keeping track of how players' stocks rise and fall. That would be considered 'scouting' too.

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03-05-2010, 03:22 PM
  #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerubeBox View Post
You guys are arguing semantics. A GM might not be required to go to games and do the actual number crunching, but he should have a decent awareness of players abilities by doing those evaluations on a regular basis, keeping track of how players' stocks rise and fall. That would be considered 'scouting' too.
There's a big difference between reading scouting reports (being informed) and doing scouting (acquiring information).

That's not semantics, it's two different tasks. Of course, you're also noting why GMs are not and should not be invested in scouting. They need to be aware of a lot of information, thus why they have folks doing the scouting for them and distilling that info into reports they can read.

Bob Clarke didn't know Claude Giroux's name...a 1st rd pick.

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03-05-2010, 03:23 PM
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerubeBox View Post
You guys are arguing semantics. A GM might not be required to go to games and do the actual number crunching, but he should have a decent awareness of players abilities by doing those evaluations on a regular basis, keeping track of how players' stocks rise and fall. That would be considered 'scouting' too.
At any given time, there are 690 players in the NHL and that's a list that's constantly changing and evolving not to mention the specific evolutions of the players themselves.

You are saying that Holmgren should have personally done files on the 800-900 players that might play in the NHL during any given season not to mention guys in junior and in Europe on top of all of his other duties as a GM?

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03-05-2010, 07:33 PM
  #348
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While he's probably screwed up the big decisions, it looks like he's good at picking a diamond in the rough. Leino, Leighton and Krajicek look like excellent pick-ups for next to nothing.

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03-06-2010, 11:44 AM
  #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Ron Hextall
he is currently the GM of the Manchester Monarchs but could be available if the Monarchs falter down the stretch and miss the playoffs for the 2nd straight year.

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03-07-2010, 07:31 AM
  #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRiles View Post
If Homer gets thrown down the toilet, who'd be the new GM?
My wish list is:

Jim Nill, asst GM, Detroit
Dave Nonis, asst GM, Toronto
Kevin Cheveldayoff, asst GM Chicago

Nill has been with the Red Wings for years and is a key piece of their front office. He is far more responsible for the success of that team's management than Steve Yzerman, who has no real track record outside of Team Canada.

Nonis was doing a very good job in rebuilding the Canucks franchise when it was sold and he was fired so the new owner's boy could step in as the GM. Nonis is a sharp guy and capable of handling the job.

Cheveldayoff was the GM of the Chicago Wolves and was an aggressive guy in procuring talent. He's young and smart, which the Blackhawks recognized and snagged him.

I do not want ANYONE from the organization as the GM. That includes Hextall or other ex-pat Flyers guys. If Holmgren is removed, they need a guy who will formulate a plan and stick to it, not abandon it within a year or so.

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