HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

10/28/09 Montreal @ Pittsburgh 730PM RDS/FS-P habs lose a big one

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-29-2009, 12:19 PM
  #151
Perrah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
See, Halak won 4 games straight. He was solid during those 4 games. Then he got abandonned on the road. So no one in their right mind is going to bash Halak for this.

Price is a different story. He wasn't winning. It might be unfair but that's why people aren't bashing Halak atm.
He would have won 2 of the 4 if the team scored like they did for halak. The only difference between the majority of their play is that the team was getting goals. Price got abandoned too but you see people going on about how terrible he was against Vancouver. I think the debate is over really until both goalies win games in a back to back fashion (like this friday and saturday hopefully) then it will be a tough decision.

Perrah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 12:25 PM
  #152
Hermamoud
Registered User
 
Hermamoud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 2,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
So explain Letang,drafted in 2005 and this year already playing in is 3rd full season ( 3rd round pick may I add)
Are you saying that we should have all expected Subban and Weber to make the team this year?

Hermamoud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 12:52 PM
  #153
BeastScottThornton*
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermamoud View Post
Are you saying that we should have all expected Subban and Weber to make the team this year?
You're the one who brought those two up specifically. It's interesting how you've conveniently ignored the litany of players we drafted around 2004 to focus on two of our younger prospects since they can't be deemed busts yet.

BeastScottThornton* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:02 PM
  #154
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastScottThornton View Post
It's interesting how you've conveniently ignored the litany of players we drafted around 2004 to focus on two of our younger prospects since they can't be deemed busts yet.
Funny you mention 2004. The Habs picked 4 current NHLers out of that draft -- Chipchura, Stewart, Grabovski, and Streit -- which has to be considered a pretty strong haul out of any draft. And we're not counting Yemelin who is probably NHL-caliber as well.

2005 produced three current NHLers as well -- Price, Latendresse, and d'Agostini -- plus Sergei Kostitsyn who has NHL skills if not an NHL attitude.

But since familiarity breeds contempt and the grass is always greener elsewhere, please do carry on.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:11 PM
  #155
Hermamoud
Registered User
 
Hermamoud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 2,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastScottThornton View Post
You're the one who brought those two up specifically. It's interesting how you've conveniently ignored the litany of players we drafted around 2004 to focus on two of our younger prospects since they can't be deemed busts yet.
They're our best prospects in defense right now, why wouldn't I mention them? If you compare the 2004 to the 2009 core of defensive prospects, you can't deny that there was improvement.

Komisarek is gone but his contribution to the Canadiens was substantial. You can't say that he was a bust. Hainsey has developed into a serviceable defenseman elsewhere, O'byrne has started showing signs on what kind of defenseman he could be before his injury. Yemelin I can't really say, I've never watched him play, maybe WS or montreal can give you better insight.

As for McDonagh, Carle and Fischer, it's way too early to say whether or not they're busts or not. Of all the defensemen drafted in 2007, Karl Alzner (5th overall) played the most games with 30. And in 2006, Erik Johnson (1st overall) has played the most with 69 games (although he did miss an entire season due to injury). The 2nd defenseman who played the most games was Mark Weber with 23.

Hermamoud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:16 PM
  #156
hototogisu
Global Moderator
Poked the bear!!!!!
 
hototogisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,252
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Funny you mention 2004. The Habs picked 4 current NHLers out of that draft -- Chipchura, Stewart, Grabovski, and Streit -- which has to be considered a pretty strong haul out of any draft. And we're not counting Yemelin who is probably NHL-caliber as well.

2005 produced three current NHLers as well -- Price, Latendresse, and d'Agostini -- plus Sergei Kostitsyn who has NHL skills if not an NHL attitude.

But since familiarity breeds contempt and the grass is always greener elsewhere, please do carry on.
The cynical side of me is almost hoping that Timmins does land a GM or an assistant GM someplace else so all the naysayers can see firsthand what bad drafting really is (since they either forgot or are too young to remember the Habs' drafts in the 90's).

hototogisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:17 PM
  #157
BeastScottThornton*
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Funny you mention 2004. The Habs picked 4 current NHLers out of that draft -- Chipchura, Stewart, Grabovski, and Streit -- which has to be considered a pretty strong haul out of any draft. And we're not counting Yemelin who is probably NHL-caliber as well.

2005 produced three current NHLers as well -- Price, Latendresse, and d'Agostini -- plus Sergei Kostitsyn who has NHL skills if not an NHL attitude.

But since familiarity breeds contempt and the grass is always greener elsewhere, please do carry on.
"Probably" NHL caliber lol. When's the last time you saw him play?. I bet you also believed Timmins when he said Valentenko was our most NHL ready defensive prospect.

Ahh... the good ol' "NHL'er" term. Zenon Konopka is an NHL'er. So is Anze Kopitar. Maybe it's not apparent to you, since they're both NHL'ers, but to me there's a difference between the two. But I guess that's how you get away with linking names like Chipchura, Stewart, and Emelin to a "strong-haul".

But go ahead and keep thinking that Timmins is doing good job, and that the fans are the to blame for why our blue chip prospects never pan out. Please do carry on, the results speak for themselves.

BeastScottThornton* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:18 PM
  #158
BeastScottThornton*
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
The cynical side of me is almost hoping that Timmins does land a GM or an assistant GM someplace else so all the naysayers can see firsthand what bad drafting really is (since they either forgot or are too young to remember the Habs' drafts in the 90's).
That's funny considering our best homegrown players (Markov and Pleks) were drafted before Timmins rolled into town.

BeastScottThornton* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:21 PM
  #159
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastScottThornton View Post
"Probably" NHL caliber lol. When's the last time you saw him play?
I'm going by published reports, but since he would be the FIFTH NHL-quality player to come out of that draft, he's not exactly critical to the point.

In any case, regardless of the caliber of the players involved, any draft you draw 4 NHLers out of is a good draft, period. You can bemoan the lack of a home run all you want, but that requires either very high picks or a generous helping of luck, and the best way for luck to work for you is volume.

But please keep trolling away. You seem to do little else on this board anyway, I wouldn't want to keep you from your fun.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:21 PM
  #160
m00ks
Registered User
 
m00ks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastScottThornton View Post
That's funny considering our best homegrown players (Markov and Pleks) were drafted before Timmins rolled into town.
Wtf? They're also the oldest and are fully developed. Your arguments are so flawed.

m00ks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:23 PM
  #161
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Wtf? They're also the oldest and are fully developed. Your arguments are so flawed.
This. Plekanec was what, 24 when he came into the NHL? None of the players drafted in 2004 or 2005 are even that old yet. And it took Pleks a couple of seasons to get up to speed, too.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:32 PM
  #162
MarkovsKnee
Registered User
 
MarkovsKnee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
While you're not totally wrong, lets not use this game to judge the quality of our goaltending.

I mean, wich goalie would look "elite" having Crosby alone in front of him three times in a game...
Unfortunately, I wasn't just using this game. I was using what I've seen from the beginning of this season & last season. Price & Halak can both show great form in a particular game and both can steal a game but neither has shown that they can do it over the long haul...yet. An average goalie can steal a game once in awhile and play solid when the team is solid, which is what both Price & Halak do. They don't lose games for us but they don't win too many either. They win if the team is playing well or if we have a lesser opponent (like the Leafs, Thrashers, Isles). Every so often they'll have an amazing game but it never lasts.

I wasn't expecting a win against the Pens. I just didn't want to see a blow-out. I wanted a competitive game from the team and I wanted to see if Halak could stand-up to the pressure that the Pens would apply. He had played the four previous games so this was a great test for him. He had some bad luck, no question but there's also a reason for the saying: "You have to be good to be lucky."

We are far, far away from competing with the Pens in the regular season nevermind the play-offs:

*We need two top 6 forwards, but if we could get one I'd be happy because then I'd just hope that A.Kost takes his head out of his ass, giving us two.
*We need more size upfront that can play along the boards and actually go to the net. (Right now we have Moen, Lapierre & maybe Chipchura. None are top 6 material.)
*Our D is mediocre. We will lose on the road just based on the match-ups that we lose with Bergeron & Gill in the line-up.
*Our goaltending is average and will not make-up for these deficits.
*No amount of "gelling" will make up for these deficits.

12 games in this is what I've seen of this team so far. I don't think it's going to change much when we get to the infamous 20 game mark.

MarkovsKnee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:32 PM
  #163
ReVeuF
Registered User
 
ReVeuF's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Montréal
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
The cynical side of me is almost hoping that Timmins does land a GM or an assistant GM someplace else so all the naysayers can see firsthand what bad drafting really is (since they either forgot or are too young to remember the Habs' drafts in the 90's).
LOL Brent Bilodeau as an example

ReVeuF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:44 PM
  #164
BeastScottThornton*
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CammerScores View Post
Unfortunately, I wasn't just using this game. I was using what I've seen from the beginning of this season & last season. Price & Halak can both show great form in a particular game and both can steal a game but neither has shown that they can do it over the long haul...yet. An average goalie can steal a game once in awhile and play solid when the team is solid, which is what both Price & Halak do. They don't lose games for us but they don't win too many either. They win if the team is playing well or if we have a lesser opponent (like the Leafs, Thrashers, Isles). Every so often they'll have an amazing game but it never lasts.

I wasn't expecting a win against the Pens. I just didn't want to see a blow-out. I wanted a competitive game from the team and I wanted to see if Halak could stand-up to the pressure that the Pens would apply. He had played the four previous games so this was a great test for him. He had some bad luck, no question but there's also a reason for the saying: "You have to be good to be lucky."

We are far, far away from competing with the Pens in the regular season nevermind the play-offs:

*We need two top 6 forwards, but if we could get one I'd be happy because then I'd just hope that A.Kost takes his head out of his ass, giving us two.
*We need more size upfront that can play along the boards and actually go to the net. (Right now we have Moen, Lapierre & maybe Chipchura. None are top 6 material.)
*Our D is mediocre. We will lose on the road just based on the match-ups that we lose with Bergeron & Gill in the line-up.
*Our goaltending is average and will not make-up for these deficits.
*No amount of "gelling" will make up for these deficits.

12 games in this is what I've seen of this team so far. I don't think it's going to change much when we get to the infamous 20 game mark.
Very well said.

BeastScottThornton* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 01:50 PM
  #165
BeastScottThornton*
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Wtf? They're also the oldest and are fully developed. Your arguments are so flawed.
Another excuse. And yet I'm confident in predicting that none of our forwards drafted between 2003-2009 will top Plek's 70 point potential. Just watch them, they suck.

Again, the results speak for themselves and side with me. It's not my fault if you don't want to see it.

BeastScottThornton* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 02:26 PM
  #166
TinordiandSubban
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
The cynical side of me is almost hoping that Timmins does land a GM or an assistant GM someplace else so all the naysayers can see firsthand what bad drafting really is (since they either forgot or are too young to remember the Habs' drafts in the 90's).
It takes a long time to see the true potential of drafted players, seven -eight years from draft day really, once the kid hits the 25-26 yr old mark.

That's far too long for most fans in most cities, let alone the most demanding and expectant fans in the league.

2003 draft picks should be peaking next season, from that draft alone TT gave us Halak, O'Byrne, Lapierre and Andrei Kostitsyn. A solid #2 goalie, a big, physical d man, a shut down centre and a winger who is a shot of confidence away from being a consistent 30+ goal guy.

Trevor Timmins does outstanding work!

InBobwetrust

TinordiandSubban is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 02:48 PM
  #167
m00ks
Registered User
 
m00ks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastScottThornton View Post
Another excuse. And yet I'm confident in predicting that none of our forwards drafted between 2003-2009 will top Plek's 70 point potential. Just watch them, they suck.

Again, the results speak for themselves and side with me. It's not my fault if you don't want to see it.
See what? That wasn't even an argument, you just called a blatant fact an excuse. Your prediction has zero merit. You're basically saying, unless a prospect comes out and destroys the league, he's a bust. Again, piss poor attempt at making a coherent argument.

m00ks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 03:01 PM
  #168
BeastScottThornton*
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
See what? That wasn't even an argument, you just called a blatant fact an excuse. Your prediction has zero merit. You're basically saying, unless a prospect comes out and destroys the league, he's a bust. Again, piss poor attempt at making a coherent argument.
Meanwhile, you're still sitting there wondering why after over 6 years we haven't been able to draft and develop a measly 60 point player. But no, don't blame Timmins. He got us NHL'ers like Chipchura, Stewart, and other worthless hacks who you're probably expecting to break out any day now... only to be faced with the reality of them plateauing as 3rd/4th liners.

Really though, get NHL Center Ice. You'll gain a ton of perspective.

BeastScottThornton* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 03:10 PM
  #169
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastScottThornton View Post
Meanwhile, you're still sitting there wondering why after over 6 years we haven't been able to draft and develop a measly 60 point player.
Let me try it again, since it doesn't seem to be sinking in despite how obvious it might seen to the rest of us.

A player drafted 6 years ago would be 24 this year.

At age 24, the Habs' newest "measly 60 point player", Plekanec, was having his rookie season. 9 goals, 29 points.

Oddly, no one called him a bust then. Presumably because back then people here understood that developing players actually takes time.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 03:13 PM
  #170
Traitor8
Registered User
 
Traitor8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Iraq
Posts: 4,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Let me try it again, since it doesn't seem to be sinking in despite how obvious it might seen to the rest of us.

A player drafted 6 years ago would be 24 this year.

At age 24, the Habs' newest "measly 60 point player", Plekanec, was having his rookie season. 9 goals, 29 points.

Oddly, no one called him a bust then. Presumably because back then people here understood that developing players actually takes time.
What?

At 24, Plekaenc had 20 goals - 27 assist for 47 points.
as a 3rd line Center behidn Koivu and Ribeiro and with little PP time.

We traded Ribeiro and Plekanec got 29 goals - 40 assists - 69 pts
as a 2nd liner with 2nd line PP time

It's not even comparable..

Traitor8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 03:20 PM
  #171
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,890
vCash: 500
People who think our drafting is problem are not seeing the full picture. It's our development of our prospects.

One Man Rock Band is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 03:23 PM
  #172
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
What?

At 24, Plekaenc had 20 goals - 27 assist for 47 points.
I'm sorry, I'm off by a year. He was 23, rather than 24, when he had his 9 goals/29 points campaign.

I'm sure this completely destroys my argument.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 03:24 PM
  #173
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermamoud View Post
Are you saying that we should have all expected Subban and Weber to make the team this year?
I expected Weber to make the team,after the playoffs last year(witch he wasn't that bad at all IMO).

But let's be honest did Subban or Weber even have a shot at making the team?

Markov-Hamrlik-Gorges already signed

Gainey got Mara-Gill and Spacek,to me he didn't even leave 1 spot open for an eventual fight at camp.Do you really think 1 of his signings wasn't going to make the team?Gainey would have looked like a big ........

And yes Weber wasn't the best player on the ice in that Western road trip but no one else stepped up.

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 03:25 PM
  #174
Traitor8
Registered User
 
Traitor8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Iraq
Posts: 4,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
People who think our drafting is problem are not seeing the full picture. It's our development of our prospects.

It's everything

Amateur Scouting
Development of those prospects

-Pro Scouting

Bryan Smolinski
Radek Bonk
Mike Johnson
Hal Gill
Sergei Samsonov
Janne Niinimaa

Traitor8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-29-2009, 03:26 PM
  #175
BeastScottThornton*
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Let me try it again, since it doesn't seem to be sinking in despite how obvious it might seen to the rest of us.

A player drafted 6 years ago would be 24 this year.

At age 24, the Habs' newest "measly 60 point player", Plekanec, was having his rookie season. 9 goals, 29 points.

Oddly, no one called him a bust then. Presumably because back then people here understood that developing players actually takes time.
And you're still using one of the worst teams in the NHL over the past 15 years as your measuring stick. I'm not surprised that your impressed with our filth considering you're comparing it with, well, our own filth. Like I've been saying, invest in Center Ice it'll do your arguments wonder.

And just for the record, Pleks was 22-23 during his rookie season. He was the least heralded out of Perezhogin, Higgins, and Balej, yet was showing at 22 (even had a stint at 21 if I recall) the type of hustle and game that we don't see out of any of any our young guys outside maybe Patches who is still lacking in so many other areas that it isn't even relevant.

BeastScottThornton* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:08 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.