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10/28/09 Montreal @ Pittsburgh 730PM RDS/FS-P habs lose a big one

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Old
10-29-2009, 04:29 PM
  #176
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I'm sorry, I'm off by a year. He was 23, rather than 24, when he had his 9 goals/29 points campaign.

I'm sure this completely destroys my argument.
It completely does.

Plekanec didn't have the time to shine ..he was on the third line and didn't have any powerplay time. While players like Pacioretty, Chipchura, Higgins (was he drafted by Timmins ?) , D'Agostini ,Andrei Kostisyn, Sergei Kostistyn, Mikhail Grabovski,Latendresse and others are given every opportunity to shine and they are not !

Price as well as not performed up to what is expected from a 5th overall pick and what was expected from management.

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10-29-2009, 04:29 PM
  #177
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And you're still using one of the worst teams in the NHL over the past 15 years as your measuring stick.
By which you mean the Habs? And you define this... how? (It's a good thing you stopped at 15 years, because you came awfully close to including a Cup Winner.)

I'm amused by your revisionist history and your lack of understanding of player development. Maybe you should watch more of that Center Ice.

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10-29-2009, 04:40 PM
  #178
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Plekanec didn't have the time to shine ..he was on the third line and didn't have any powerplay time. While players like Pacioretty, Chipchura, Higgins (was he drafted by Timmins ?) , D'Agostini ,Andrei Kostisyn, Sergei Kostistyn, Mikhail Grabovski,Latendresse and others are given every opportunity to shine and they are not !
The only players in that list that is older than Pleky was in his rookie year are Chipchura, Kostitsyn, and Higgins, who was not drafted by Timmins. Which is, really, my point: all these guys are in the NHL ahead of Plekanec's schedule, and none of them have had as much development time as Plekanec yet. The four 2005 draftees are just now entering their year corresponding to Plekanec's rookie season.

No doubt someone will then claim that they've all been rushed. But then we'd hear whining about how they never get a chance.

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Price as well as not performed up to what is expected from a 5th overall pick and what was expected from management.
I think you need to review your expectations about young goalies. It would do well to look at how Marc-Andre Fleury and Cam Ward were doing around Carey Price's age. It wasn't always pretty.

Your expectations about fifth overall picks also need work. The guys drafted one spot ahead of him and behind him were Pouliot and Brule. Neither of whom are anywhere near Price's level of NHL impact at this point.

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10-29-2009, 04:43 PM
  #179
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It completely does.

Plekanec didn't have the time to shine ..he was on the third line and didn't have any powerplay time. While players like Pacioretty, Chipchura, Higgins (was he drafted by Timmins ?) , D'Agostini ,Andrei Kostisyn, Sergei Kostistyn, Mikhail Grabovski,Latendresse and others are given every opportunity to shine and they are not !

Price as well as not performed up to what is expected from a 5th overall pick and what was expected from management.

Look at the players I just named you ..look who we could of had instead if the drafting was just a little different :

2003- Carter or Parise or Getzlaf or Richards (instead of Kostisyn)
2004- Zajac or Wolski or Meszaros (instead of Chipchura)
2005- Kopitar or Staal (instead of Price)
2006- Varlamov or Berglund or Foligno (instead of Fisher)
2007- Traded McDonagh so I won't say anything
2007- David Perron (instead of Pacioretty..STILL too early to tell..i'll give you that)
2008- No Pick
2009 - Louis Leblanc (still too early to tell)

Those are the first round of the past years ..

so yes hindsight is 20/20 but who else is suppose to get the blame ..

You get praised for doing amazing picks or drafting players that maybe you didn't even you think would be that good (Streit, Halak , etc .. ) but u get **** for drafting players that don't contribute as much as you had hoped ..it's the business !


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10-29-2009, 04:45 PM
  #180
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The only players in that list that is older than Pleky was in his rookie year are Chipchura, Kostitsyn, and Higgins, who was not drafted by Timmins. Which is, really, my point: all these guys are in the NHL ahead of Plekanec's schedule, and none of them have had as much development time as Plekanec yet. The four 2005 draftees are just now entering their year corresponding to Plekanec's rookie season.

No doubt someone will then claim that they've all been rushed. But then we'd hear whining about how they never get a chance.



I think you need to review your expectations about young goalies. It would do well to look at how Marc-Andre Fleury and Cam Ward were doing around Carey Price's age. It wasn't always pretty.

Your expectations about fifth overall picks also need work. The guys drafted one spot ahead of him and behind him were Pouliot and Brule. Neither of whom are anywhere near Price's level of NHL impact at this point.

Price is suppose to the next big thing ..he is suppose to the saviour ..thats' how management interpreted. They picked up when we still had Jose Theodore as a #1 (before his demise) so they saw a lot of potential in him. They kept him in Montreal and sent Halak down against the coach, Carbonneau, word .

And what's this about Price not having a good work ethic ... I hope i t's not true but I hope we didn't pick another player that has "talent" but that doesn't work his ass off ..or else look out for another BUST

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10-29-2009, 04:50 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
By which you mean the Habs? And you define this... how? (It's a good thing you stopped at 15 years, because you came awfully close to including a Cup Winner.)

I'm amused by your revisionist history and your lack of understanding of player development. Maybe you should watch more of that Center Ice.
Not making it past the second round... It puts us in some nice company with 8 other franchises who I guess from your post are probably the 8 franchises apart from the Habs that have clear understanding of player scouting and development. Teams like the Islanders, Coyotes, and Thrashers. Being a "math man" (although from the Pleks age calculation, it seems more like an optimistic tag rather than a fitting one) you should easily be able to deduce that the Habs are in the bottom tier of the league over the past 15 years. End of story there.

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10-29-2009, 04:50 PM
  #182
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If you want more time for Price then don't shove him in my face like he's the next saviour. Don't send a older more experienced goalie like Halak down when he was the best goalie in the league 2 years running just to make space for Price.

Don't trade your #1 goalie for a 2nd round pick and name Price as your #1 goalie for the stretch run + playoffs! They did this, not us !

If they sent him down to the AHL for 1-2 yrs and let him come up normally as Halak's backup and let him win the #1 spot then that's fine but they shoved him down our throats and this is what they get for it. Like I said, if it worked, they would of been praised for seeing the talent and realization that he could be a #1 at such a young age ... but you get **** for it not working out ! it's the business ..they took a chance with him and they took many chances with other players (Kostisyn among others) and it didn't work out !


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10-29-2009, 04:53 PM
  #183
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I will give you the fact that some players are still young and need time like Pacioretty ..

but you have to admit that there is absolutely NO potential superstar or star player in our prospect pool ... that's ALARMING.

Andrei's going to turn 25 in February ... that's suppose to be his "good young years" . He is barely doing anything out there. That's your 10th overall pick ! Don't ask for more time ... just like you showed me who was picked around Price, go look at how who was picked around Kostisyn and how they did !
Exactly. Except according to Math Man you can only show the guy picked one slot before and one slot after.

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10-29-2009, 05:05 PM
  #184
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Look at the players I just named you ..look who we could of had instead if the drafting was just a little different :
Picking players you looked over is the most insipid and most useless exercise. If I list busts who were picked before our picks that were complete busts, do I get to congratulate Timmins on his awesome vision?

And comparing 22-year old players is pretty silly when determining draft success, anyway. I did mention that developing players takes time? At the end of 07-08, Jeff Carter would not have been on your list. It's just not too early to tell for the 2007, it's too early for anything 2005 on, and probably earlier, too.

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so yes hindsight is 20/20 but who else is suppose to get the blame ..
I don't see that there is blame to be laid.

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10-29-2009, 05:06 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by BeastScottThornton View Post
Exactly. Except according to Math Man you can only show the guy picked one slot before and one slot after.
It's just a quick example, even though you're unable to grasp the concept that cherry picking the one guy you wish you'd have had instead of the untold multitude that aren't better than your pick is completely meaningless. My point was that Price compares very well to the other players drafted early in that year.

And even pining for Kopitar is rather premature.

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10-29-2009, 05:09 PM
  #186
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I don't see that there is blame to be laid.
For people with low standards, you're right. For people who want a winner and knows what it takes, there's PLENTY of blame to go around.

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10-29-2009, 05:09 PM
  #187
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By which you mean the Habs? And you define this... how? (It's a good thing you stopped at 15 years, because you came awfully close to including a Cup Winner.)

I'm amused by your revisionist history and your lack of understanding of player development. Maybe you should watch more of that Center Ice.
Player development ??!
Are you kidding me ?

Who has this current mgmt developed well ! Give me some names!

How come they can't handle young players?
Ribeiro goes on to score 84 pts.
some young players partying last year..

You call this player development ?

How about shoving Price down my face and then asking for more time?

How about calling Pacioretty now and expecting him to perform when he clearly needs more AHL time.

How about Andrei Kost , Latendresse and Lapierre regressing... that's what I call ALARMING !

Also drafting Russian players tht left or didn't wanna come here .. Perezhogin, Valatenko, Emelin ..
and now Sergei is threatening to leave ..

that's BAD management and bad draft picks .. is it entirely there fault ? Maybe not but it comes down to their responsability.

and Yes, if Timmins picked a star player, we would all be there saying how amazing vision he had and what a great pick ! If he picks a player that goes on to suck, I will be the first in line to say that pick is trash. If the horrible picks keep up on pilling up then I will call for replacement ! It's the business !

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10-29-2009, 05:15 PM
  #188
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Why do scouts lose their job then Math Man ?

If looking at other picked prospects and how they are doing is a futile exercise then how , should the Montreal Canadiens organization and owners, judge and rate Timmins , the whole scouting staff and gm's job ?

Enlighten me ..please! I'm dying to know.

ALSO since you asked more time.
Tell me how long you want me to be "patient" with the following players.


Andrei Kostitsyn ?
Kyle Chipchura ?
Guillaume Latendresse ?
Max Pacioretty ?
Carey Price ?
Max D'Agostini ?

and what is YOUR actual evaluation and expection of these players at the end of the time you mentionned to me.

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10-29-2009, 05:16 PM
  #189
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Who has this current mgmt developed well ! Give me some names!
The only young players that this management can really be said to have developped are Ribeiro, Komisarek, Plekanec, Higgins, and the like.

The thing to understand about the Habs is that they are extremely young at forward. Most of their players aren't done developping, though Andrei Kostitsyn is getting close. The problem with the current crop of Habs is that they've made the NHL younger than most, so people want results now-now-now and disregard the players' ages.

You cannot judge a 22-year-old 3-year NHL vet the same way you judge a 26-year-old 3-year NHL vet. That's just silly.

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and Yes, if Timmins picked a star player, we would all be there saying how amazing vision he had and what a great pick !
It'll be interesting to see what we say about the Price pick in a couple of years. Personally I think he picked a future star player right there.

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10-29-2009, 05:19 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The only young players that this management can really be said to have developped are Ribeiro, Komisarek, Plekanec, Higgins, and the like.

The thing to understand about the Habs is that they are extremely young at forward. Most of their players aren't done developping, though Andrei Kostitsyn is getting close. The problem with the current crop of Habs is that they've made the NHL younger than most, so people want results now-now-now and disregard the players' ages.

You cannot judge a 22-year-old 3-year NHL vet the same way you judge a 26-year-old 3-year NHL vet. That's just silly.



It'll be interesting to see what we say about the Price pick in a couple of years. Personally I think he picked a future star player right there.

Funny that you mentioned to be 4 players that are NOT picked by this management and that 3 of them not here and Higgins who has SUCKED ridiculously and was just a "throw-in" in the Gomez Deal. He is a "bust" for a 14th overall pick. Ribeiro has developed in Dallas ..he was somewhat developed here but not the player that he could or should be. Komisarek was developed here or is it that Markov has made him look amazing ? We'll see ..

I am mad that they shoved Andre Savard out the door when he was doing a better job then our Scout Leader and our GM.

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10-29-2009, 05:20 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The only young players that this management can really be said to have developped are Ribeiro, Komisarek, Plekanec, Higgins, and the like.

The thing to understand about the Habs is that they are extremely young at forward. Most of their players aren't done developping, though Andrei Kostitsyn is getting close. The problem with the current crop of Habs is that they've made the NHL younger than most, so people want results now-now-now and disregard the players' ages.

You cannot judge a 22-year-old 3-year NHL vet the same way you judge a 26-year-old 3-year NHL vet. That's just silly.



It'll be interesting to see what we say about the Price pick in a couple of years. Personally I think he picked a future star player right there.
I think he still has a lot of developing to do, but it's especially psychologically. His raw talent and skillset is outstanding.

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10-29-2009, 05:23 PM
  #192
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I think he still has a lot of developing to do, but it's especially psychologically. His raw talent and skillset is outstanding.
nobody cares about that ..

we want Performance, we want ACTUAL POINTS being put up on the boards and actual wins won by him and the team...

The same is also true of a player who works his ass off but is not producing points ...


WE WANT performance ..the guy was one of the prospects I LOVED but he's let me down badly ..he has BUST written all over him.

Am I suppose to pick a player 10th overall and wait 7 years for him to develop into a 20-25 goal scorer ? Are you kidding me ?

Is that how long it takes to develop player, 7 YEARS ?!?!

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10-29-2009, 05:26 PM
  #193
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I think he still has a lot of developing to do, but it's especially psychologically. His raw talent and skillset is outstanding.
It's really not, and the faster you and the management figure that out we can maybe stop this trend of heading into a season expecting Akost to hold down a first line minutes or to carry a line on his own. This is Higgins all over again, but even worse because Akost brings nothing to the bottom 6. Just a lazy, disinterested player with the hockey sense of a brick.

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10-29-2009, 05:26 PM
  #194
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Why do scouts lose their job then Math Man ?
You seem to be thinking that Timmins is doing a bad job. He's one of the best in the business, going by his track record.

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Tell me how long you want me to be "patient" with the following players.
I dunno, maybe wait until they're, oh, 25? I recognize that Kostitsyn is almost there and had better get going soon, but almost everyone else on your list was drafted in 2005 and later. 2005 is so recent that only 7 players from the second round have played as many as 10 games in the NHL, heck, fully one third of players picked in the first round have less than 10 NHL games. What would your evaluation be of THOSE guys, I wonder?

Which brings us to Pacioretty and the 2007 draft. There's about 10 guys from the first round in that draft who have any NHL experience. It's a good thing they didn't keep Subban in camp, he'd be a bust too at this point.

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10-29-2009, 05:30 PM
  #195
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I am mad that they shoved Andre Savard out the door when he was doing a better job then our Scout Leader and our GM.
Funny, didn't he draft Higgins, who has "SUCKED ridiculously" and is "a "bust" for a 14th overall pick"?

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10-29-2009, 05:32 PM
  #196
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You seem to be thinking that Timmins is doing a bad job. He's one of the best in the business, going by his track record.



I dunno, maybe wait until they're, oh, 25? I recognize that Kostitsyn is almost there and had better get going soon, but almost everyone else on your list was drafted in 2005 and later. 2005 is so recent that only 7 players from the second round have played as many as 10 games in the NHL, heck, fully one third of players picked in the first round have less than 10 NHL games. What would your evaluation be of THOSE guys, I wonder?

Which brings us to Pacioretty and the 2007 draft. There's about 10 guys from the first round in that draft who have any NHL experience. It's a good thing they didn't keep Subban in camp, he'd be a bust too at this point.

So you are telling me that as a fan , you want to wait until they are 25 ..

wow ..so you want to wait 7 YEARS from the day they are drafted for them to actual have some kind of contribution !? are you kidding me ?

This is TERRIBLE

and what track record of Timmins are you talking about ? I just showed you his track record since 2003, it's ATROCIOUS ..not horrible ..ATROCIOUS ..dont' tell me what he did 10 - 15 yrs ago because I am not interested. The GAME has changed, the players have changed, it's a YOUNG's game now, u don't wait 7 yrs for a player to develop ! That's compltely ridiculous !

I pick a player 10th overall in one of the deepest drafts in NHL history and i'm suppose to wait 7 years for him to score 20-25 goals on a consistn basis for me ?

Thats' not to mention he was suppose to be a 35-40 goal guy and 82 pts per season when we drafted him. You keep reducing your expectation of this player , day after day, week after week, month after month until it is an "average" expection such as 20-25 goals with 50-60 pts and then you going to come back here on hfboards with a smile on your face and say "Andrei made it, I told you guys ". Look at the players we drafted and what mgmt said about them and the position that they were drafted in . Are they meeting those expectations and the answer is a BIG FAT NO !

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10-29-2009, 05:33 PM
  #197
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Funny, didn't he draft Higgins, who has "SUCKED ridiculously" and is "a "bust" for a 14th overall pick"?
Yep and he GETS **** FOR THAT ! at least, he didn't have 5-6 consecutive first round busts !

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10-29-2009, 05:35 PM
  #198
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and you could be right ..maybe it's not jsut the picks ..

it's player management, it's amateur scouting, it's pro scouting (who we surround them with) , coaching, AHL coaching ..etc

it all factors in and the party responsible for all of this is UPPER Montreal Canadiens Management. Gainey, Gauthier,Timmins and OTHERS !

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10-29-2009, 05:35 PM
  #199
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Is that how long it takes to develop player, 7 YEARS ?!?!
Um, actually, yes.

For most of them, it does take around 7 years from the time they are drafted at 18 years old to the time they are at their peak.

There are exceptions, but they tend to be superstar players/high draft picks and consequently get more hype. And forwards. Most of the exceptions are forwards, because it is much more difficult to play defense or goalie at a high level without experience.

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10-29-2009, 05:37 PM
  #200
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Funny, didn't he draft Higgins, who has "SUCKED ridiculously" and is "a "bust" for a 14th overall pick"?
and maybe under Savard's tenure, Higgins wouldn't of partied as much and there would be better player development ..we don't know about that because we were never given a chance to see it.

On the other hand, you don't hand an olive branch to Savard for picking Mike Komisarek ...oh wait Gainey and co developed him ... but what about Higgins ..didn't Gainey and co develop him .. oh ya but Savard drafted him ..

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