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Terry Murray on the shootout: "It's a useless part of the game."

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Old
11-02-2009, 10:44 AM
  #101
Captain Ron
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Obviously? On the main HF board a while back there was the shootout poll, and 64% of those that responded liked the shootout.

Yes, 64% is quite obvious.

As a "long term fan," why don't you turn off your tv or leave Staples after OT? You should actually start leaving after regulation, since OT is 4 on 4. When enough fans start doing that, OT and the shootout may go away.

What's with the "we were all here before the shoot out" crap - hey, I'm a long term fan that likes the shootout, now what?

And like a few have said, if the Kings won one or both of the recent SO games, this wouldn't even be an issue.
You pretty much summed up all my feelings on the subject Butch. Kudos to you.

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11-02-2009, 10:46 AM
  #102
Butch 19
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
The question you responded to was "Can one of you "TIES ARE UNNACCEPTABLE!" people please explain to me why an evenly played game that neither team can best each other in during an 82 game regular season shouldn't just be a tie? What's the big deal?"
I'll take a shot at this: The GAME (and OT) ended in a tie. Each team was awarded 1 point (like countless other tie games in NHL history).


Then the shootout winner got an extra point.

Simple (and you still got your tie).

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11-02-2009, 11:41 AM
  #103
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My feeling is a shootout win should not be rewarded in the win column. A new column called "SW"
Win, Loss, SW, and SOL. OT win or loss would be counted no more OTL. So the Kings would be 8-4-0-2

Hey if you really want the OT and shootout to mean somethnig then no ties either get 2 points or nothing. Every other sport does not reward you with a OT or Shootout loss.

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Old
11-02-2009, 12:19 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
This is the attitude I was asking about. We aren't talking about the Stanley Cup finals.

You cite the season ending standings as being clear cut. Would you like it if playoff seeding for teams tied in points at season's end was decided by the shootout?
No, I wouldn't like it. But to me, it's not too far off from a team's fate being decided by goal differential... which is one of the criteria of breaking a tie in the standings.

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11-02-2009, 01:19 PM
  #105
Dr. Naysay
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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
Truth be told, I agree with much of what you said Dr. Naysayer, but the few things we disagree on is enough for me to think opposite of you.

You're right about the existence of the integrity of sports. Sports is wonderful because on the field (or ice), its a perfect entity within itself. No politics interferes with the result, it's dependent on the players on the field, and there is a clear cut winner. This is one of the most important aspects of sports, yet you neglect it. If you think ties are ok, how about allowing two teams to tie in the Stanely Cup finals and declare two teams "winners". Ludicrous right? At the end of the season, there is always a clear ranking of all the teams, no ties. Why should games be any different? In many ways this makes sports purer than life, there aren't any murky "well, depends...", it's just is, no arguments. .
The Stanley Cup Playoffs and the NHL Regular Season are not the same thing. In the playoffs teams are eliminated. All 30 teams don't get to play in the playoffs, let alone all four rounds. The purpose of the Regular Season is to produce the seeds for the Post-season tournament. The Regular Season is NOT a tournament. Ties in the regular season are perfectly acceptable because of the what the Regular Season exists to do. Ties in the playoffs are not acceptable because the playoffs exist specifically to eliminate opponents until one team remains as "The Champion". At the end of the Regular Season there are ABSOLUTELY ties in the standings and they developed a system of tie-breakers because you need a final rankings. At the end of a single regular season 60 minute game... you don't NEED a "winner" and a "loser". Sometimes... it's just a tie.


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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
Now you act like the NHL is impervious to the economic situation facing it, yet not too long ago they sacrificed one whole year of revenue to ensure that it can maintain control of skyrocketing costs. So ignoring the problem doesn't mean it's going to go away, that's one year of hockey you lost right there. Plus, how many businesses do you know would shut down for one year to make sure it can maintain in business? These are serious steps that were taken place here, not just something done on a whim. If you're not worried about the economic situation, I'd be fairly confident in saying you'd be in the minority of those who are actually involved with the sport.
I'm not an economist.... but if the players are earning millions of dollars a year, and coaches are earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and the owner of Blackberry is willing to toss millions of dollars away on legal battles and pr nightmares... I'm willing to believe that the economics of the game are not so at risk that the shootout will be either the saviour or the damnation of the league. The owners will ALWAYS care about making MORE money. No matter how much they make... they will always want to make more. The purpose of the Commissioner's Office should be to help balance the desire to make as much money as humanly possible with the desire to produce a quality product. Any decision made with for the sole purpose of generating profit (3rd jerseys, the shootout etc) will always get my ire up.


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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
Another thing, what makes you think that the NHL can continue attracting the world's best talent if it's fan base doesn't continue to grow? Besides losing athletes to other sports, Russia can also start competing for salaries and attracting the best talent.

These are worst case scenarios, yes, and very unlikely to happen, but I'm trying to make a point that you can't neglect the business side of the NHL and act like it's going to always be the wonderful product you have now.
My suggestion is that focusing SOLELY on the business side will cause you to neglect the quality issues... and THAT'S how you will ultimately lose fans. If the NHL got rid of 3rd jerseys and the McFlurry Minute and mascots etc etc etc I doubt VERY much that they would lose a single fan.

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Old
11-02-2009, 02:02 PM
  #106
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I still think a point system that acknowledges that a real win is greater then a shootout win is the best compromise.

3 pts for win
2 pts for shootout win
1 pt for shootout loss
0 pts for loss.

All games worth a total of 3 points.
shootouts stay and have worth but teams will have the incentive to go for the win to avoid the shootout since they can get the 3 points instead of only 1/3 of that for sure (currently 1/2) and only 2/3rds (currently 100%) of that at best.

So rather then a shootout or no shootout debate, how about a debate on if the above proposed point system is, in fact, the fairest and most equitable way to award points during the regular season.

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Old
11-02-2009, 02:17 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbar View Post
I still think a point system that acknowledges that a real win is greater then a shootout win is the best compromise.

3 pts for win
2 pts for shootout win
1 pt for shootout loss
0 pts for loss.

All games worth a total of 3 points.
shootouts stay and have worth but teams will have the incentive to go for the win to avoid the shootout since they can get the 3 points instead of only 1/3 of that for sure (currently 1/2) and only 2/3rds (currently 100%) of that at best.

So rather then a shootout or no shootout debate, how about a debate on if the above proposed point system is, in fact, the fairest and most equitable way to award points during the regular season.
What doesn't make sense is punishing a winner because they didn't finish in regulation. You've yet to provide a rational explanation for this.

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Old
11-02-2009, 02:31 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by kingsholygrail View Post
What doesn't make sense is punishing a winner because they didn't finish in regulation. You've yet to provide a rational explanation for this.
I like the 3 point system, and I don't feel it punishes a winner at all for not winning in regulation.

3 points for winning in Reg/OT is just fine, the loser doesn't get anything for an OT loss.

If you can't wrap it up by then, go to the shootout where the winner gets 2 and the loser 1. Loser gets a point for not coming out on top in a random skills competition where torn-up ice can make or break a play. I've played on scraped ice without water, and it's not a big improvement, sometimes it even makes it bumpier.

I don't view this as punishment at all, because hockey is a team game. If you win as a team, you get the 3 points. If you win as 3 guys and a goalie, you get 2.

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Old
11-02-2009, 02:35 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by kingsholygrail View Post
What doesn't make sense is punishing a winner because they didn't finish in regulation. You've yet to provide a rational explanation for this.
Because scoring against a goalie in the run of play reflects the team nature of the sport and involves all elements that make up the sport we love called Ice Hockey?

To score more goals then the opposition during the run of play involves skating, passing, hitting, shooting, goaltending, teamwork, communication, etc etc etc. I.e., all the elements of the sport of Ice Hockey.

To be better then the other team in a shootout involves a shooter and a goalie and not much else?

Does that make sense?

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Old
11-02-2009, 02:37 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsholygrail View Post
What doesn't make sense is punishing a winner because they didn't finish in regulation. You've yet to provide a rational explanation for this.
What doesnt make sense about it? If they had their **** together, the game wouldve never gone to overtime. I think the idea is better then the current. However it shouldve been implimented after all the changes were made.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:32 PM
  #111
Dr. Naysay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbar View Post
I still think a point system that acknowledges that a real win is greater then a shootout win is the best compromise.

3 pts for win
2 pts for shootout win
1 pt for shootout loss
0 pts for loss.

All games worth a total of 3 points.
shootouts stay and have worth but teams will have the incentive to go for the win to avoid the shootout since they can get the 3 points instead of only 1/3 of that for sure (currently 1/2) and only 2/3rds (currently 100%) of that at best.

So rather then a shootout or no shootout debate, how about a debate on if the above proposed point system is, in fact, the fairest and most equitable way to award points during the regular season.
Yes...

assuming that you're going to have shootouts that is the indisputably "fair" way to do it. It retains the symmetry and elegance of the old W-L-T system by introducing a fourth column in the standings.

Sadly... most of the shootout proponents are knuckle dragging idiots and will never let you have your rational system.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:47 PM
  #112
Butch 19
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Originally Posted by Dr. Naysay View Post
most of the shootout proponents are knuckle dragging idiots and will never let you have your rational system.
Back in the day, Knuckle was a pretty good goalie...


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Old
11-02-2009, 06:55 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Back in the day, Knuckle was a pretty good goalie...

You can count on Butch to keep it real!

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