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Wayne Gretzky Ruined Hockey

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Old
04-11-2004, 06:38 PM
  #1
DonovanMD
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Wayne Gretzky Ruined Hockey

Yah thats right you heard me, lol It makes sense if you think about it. hahaha


http://thehockeyfan.com/index.php?su..._from=&ucat=1&


Let me know what you think. Its a diffrent take on the Trap.

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04-11-2004, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonovanMD
Yah thats right you heard me, lol It makes sense if you think about it. hahaha


http://thehockeyfan.com/index.php?su..._from=&ucat=1&


Let me know what you think. Its a diffrent take on the Trap.
Teams trap because they dont have the skilled players to score those kind of goals. The talent pool is not big enough to support the amount of teams in the NHL today. So the only way to win is to trap.

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04-11-2004, 06:51 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Teams trap because they dont have the skilled players to score those kind of goals. The talent pool is not big enough to support the amount of teams in the NHL today. So the only way to win is to trap.
Yes, it's this kind of flawled judgement that brought this article to light. The talent pool is deeper than ever, the difference between a loss and a win is so small and you could ask Lemaire if no Wayne Gretzky wouldn't of stopped him putting in place the system he invented.

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04-11-2004, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonovanMD
Yah thats right you heard me, lol It makes sense if you think about it. hahaha


http://thehockeyfan.com/index.php?su..._from=&ucat=1&


Let me know what you think. Its a diffrent take on the Trap.
Wayne put hockey on the map. So to say he ruined the game is crazy. Grezky came arround the largest hockey expansion and he is the main reason hockey was striving as high as it was in the 80's.

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04-11-2004, 07:01 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleHossa
Yes, it's this kind of flawled judgement that brought this article to light. The talent pool is deeper than ever, the difference between a loss and a win is so small and you could ask Lemaire if no Wayne Gretzky wouldn't of stopped him putting in place the system he invented.
The talent pool is not as big as ever it is the same as it was 15 years ago maybe a little lower then 15 years ago.

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04-11-2004, 07:06 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleHossa
The talent pool is deeper than ever.
This couldn't be anymore true. With the Iron Curtain falling, Czechoslovakia (sp?) and Russia alone became more open to having its talented being brought over, as opposed to the Eighties when these guys stayed home, and countries like Germany, Poland, Switzerland, and Austria among others sending players over for either the NHL or the minors, as well as Finland and Sweden being more open to their players coming over more than they were in the Eighties. People who actually believe the talent pool is depleted either are too ignorant to realize that with the addition of at least eight countries (either from former Soviet republics or Eastern Bloc countries splitting up) there are thousands upon thousands more players to pick from, or they are biased because there's not enough North American players representing.

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04-11-2004, 07:12 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
This couldn't be anymore true. With the Iron Curtain falling, Czechoslovakia (sp?) and Russia alone became more open to having its talented being brought over, as opposed to the Eighties when these guys stayed home, and countries like Germany, Poland, Switzerland, and Austria among others sending players over for either the NHL or the minors, as well as Finland and Sweden being more open to their players coming over more than they were in the Eighties. People who actually believe the talent pool is depleted either are too ignorant to realize that with the addition of at least eight countries (either from former Soviet republics or Eastern Bloc countries splitting up) there are thousands upon thousands more players to pick from, or they are biased because there's not enough North American players representing.
Thats why scoring is on the rise because of all these new awsome hockey players. I personally don't care where they come from the players are not as good as they where 15 years ago. Some of my favorite players come from Europe ao to say that is the reason that I am saying that the talent pool is low is crazy. Every year that the leauge expands scoring goes down. I can guarantee that scoring would be a lot higher if Betman had not added so many new teams.

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04-11-2004, 07:13 PM
  #8
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Gretzky helped grow the game, in actual fact Gary Bettman is killing hockey.
Since this idiot took over the commissioners office the NHL has
had skyrocketing salaries & violence, 2 referee system, over expansion, home team in dark jerseys, a glowing puck, a stooped point for an overtime loss and the list of bad decisions goes on and on. We need a Commissioner who grew up playing and loving the game, not a midget lawyer.

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04-11-2004, 07:15 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
The talent pool is not as big as ever it is the same as it was 15 years ago maybe a little lower then 15 years ago.
So mutliple more countries havin hundreds of thousands of kids playing hockey and being free to come to North America to play hockey is the same amount as Canada, a few kids from the U.S., Finland and Sweden, and a possible couple of defectors. Add it up man. Look at the populations of Russia, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Romania, Lithuania, Poland, and the rest of the former Warsaw Pact countries and tell me how, even if you figure 1/20th of those populations are playing hockey, the talent pool is less than it was in the mid Eighties. There's even more kids playin hockey in the United States for scouts to look at now. You wouldn't have seen names like Ovechkin, Zherdev, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Hossa, and such in the drafts of the Eighties as often as you see names like Gretzky, Lemieux, Hull, Roenick, Messier there then, like you do now.

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04-11-2004, 07:18 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
So mutliple more countries havin hundreds of thousands of kids playing hockey and being free to come to North America to play hockey is the same amount as Canada, a few kids from the U.S., Finland and Sweden, and a possible couple of defectors. Add it up man. Look at the populations of Russia, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Romania, Lithuania, Poland, and the rest of the former Warsaw Pact countries and tell me how, even if you figure 1/20th of those populations are playing hockey, the talent pool is less than it was in the mid Eighties. There's even more kids playin hockey in the United States for scouts to look at now. You wouldn't have seen names like Ovechkin, Zherdev, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Hossa, and such in the drafts of the Eighties as often as you see names like Gretzky, Lemieux, Hull, Roenick, Messier there then, like you do now.
Higher popllation does not autmatically make for better players.

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04-11-2004, 07:19 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by richardn
Thats why scoring is on the rise because of all these new awsome hockey players. I personally don't care where they come from the players are not as good as they where 15 years ago. Some of my favorite players come from Europe ao to say that is the reason that I am saying that the talent pool is low is crazy. Every year that the leauge expands scoring goes down. I can guarantee that scoring would be a lot higher if Betman had not added so many new teams.
Then your arguement is that the talent pool is depleted, but that the amount of top end talent isn't there. And to that I say that with expansion, the top end talent is a bit more spread out, but with the additional players that the level of talent overall has driven the measuring stick higher than it ever was before. It should make you wonder how many of the names you knew and loved in the Eighties would even have a roster spot with the influx of talent now. Personally, I think there would be a lot of North Americans who wouldn't have had jobs in the NHL with today's playing field.

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04-11-2004, 07:21 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Higher popllation does not autmatically make for better players.
Actually, in a manor of speakin it does. It raises the level of what it takes to get a job with more players fighting for jobs

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04-11-2004, 07:35 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
Actually, in a manor of speakin it does. It raises the level of what it takes to get a job with more players fighting for jobs
Your right lets just change the game so much to the extent that it would not even be hockey anymore. Rule changes will not increase scoring like everyone thinks. The problem is to many teams. The overall depth of players may be on the rise but the problem is that their are no larger numbers of elite players on the rise. If the NHL had 24 teams instead of 30 teams we would be seing scores just like before I can guarantee you that. Check out the statistics on scoring they don't lie. The game is becoming to watered down.

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04-11-2004, 07:57 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by richardn
Your right lets just change the game so much to the extent that it would not even be hockey anymore. Rule changes will not increase scoring like everyone thinks. The problem is to many teams. The overall depth of players may be on the rise but the problem is that their are no larger numbers of elite players on the rise. If the NHL had 24 teams instead of 30 teams we would be seing scores just like before I can guarantee you that. Check out the statistics on scoring they don't lie. The game is becoming to watered down.
So now the arguement turns to sectionalizng the game to a small area by knockin out a few teams to drive up scoring. Without teams in Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Tennessee, California, Arizona, and Texas, there would be no reason to have a national televison contract, as these are the fastest growing population areas in the USA, yet would have no hockey teams, thus the loss of some large amount of fanbase and therefore money. The NHL would not still have the same problems, but on a smaller scale. Players would still want larger contracts, but there wouldn't be the money to support them. Since the nineties started, the game of hockey has been evolving, not only with the addition of expansion teams and new markets, but with the addition of coutries sending players that formerly didn't send players. Opening new markets to kids all over the United States, and the rest of the world for that matter with a national television contract (even tho the current one sucks). The repercussions of this expansions/growth won't be felt yet for another five to ten years IMO, but when it does is when scoring will be on the rise again. Some rule changes do need to be made as they'll help the scoring somewhat, and some current rules need to be enforced with less subjectiveness of the officials who are calling the penalties. this is the biggest problem with hockey right now IMO. The officiating. The only true way to end the clutching and grabbing usually involved with the nuetral zone trap, is for the officials to learn how to call games down the middle, and to absolutely call obstruction and diving. But these are also very ssubnective calls to begin with.

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04-11-2004, 07:58 PM
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You have the right idea but express it the wrong way. What you want are players like Gretzky, Orr who are vastly superior to the average player to make for some high scoring games, however since the average player's quality went up as the years passed, the elite players aren't so "out there". Even an elite player who doesn't give 100% everynight could get beaten by the average NHLer, where 20 years ago, they were untouchable.
The players themselves, the coaches, they all say how the game is much better. That back then, every team only had 1 or 2 guys who could shoot the puck, but today all 20 on the team can,this isn't a watered down NHL at all, just smaller gap between both extremes.
What are you going to have next, rich people complaining that the middle class has too much spending power? That the rich don't appear so rich anymore? Today's NHL is best for everyone.

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Old
04-11-2004, 08:26 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
So now the arguement turns to sectionalizng the game to a small area by knockin out a few teams to drive up scoring. Without teams in Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Tennessee, California, Arizona, and Texas, there would be no reason to have a national televison contract, as these are the fastest growing population areas in the USA, yet would have no hockey teams, thus the loss of some large amount of fanbase and therefore money. The NHL would not still have the same problems, but on a smaller scale. Players would still want larger contracts, but there wouldn't be the money to support them. Since the nineties started, the game of hockey has been evolving, not only with the addition of expansion teams and new markets, but with the addition of coutries sending players that formerly didn't send players. Opening new markets to kids all over the United States, and the rest of the world for that matter with a national television contract (even tho the current one sucks). The repercussions of this expansions/growth won't be felt yet for another five to ten years IMO, but when it does is when scoring will be on the rise again. Some rule changes do need to be made as they'll help the scoring somewhat, and some current rules need to be enforced with less subjectiveness of the officials who are calling the penalties. this is the biggest problem with hockey right now IMO. The officiating. The only true way to end the clutching and grabbing usually involved with the nuetral zone trap, is for the officials to learn how to call games down the middle, and to absolutely call obstruction and diving. But these are also very ssubnective calls to begin with.
I never mentioned any teams. I personally think the league was better off with 24 teams. It is stuck the way it is now. We are just going to have a period of time to wait for the talent pool to catch up with the amount of teams. The rules are fine the way they are or put the rules back the way they were. The league must be patient with the game. You can't expand that fast and not acpect some bad times. Especially without a Gretzky class player to drive the game.

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04-11-2004, 11:21 PM
  #17
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This article can't be taken too seriously for many reasons. One, that Gretz put hockey on the map, and another minor reason is that he doesn't have a clue on the trap and it's origins. In fact, the trap was invented by a Swedish coach(the Djurgardens coach, I think) to create higher scoring. It was effective in that way, untill other coaches decided to defend his high scoring team by using the same trap only in a defensive way. Those teams then became successful, and NHL teams tried combatting the run-and-gun offense used by most other teams in the mid-90s using that defensive trap formation. Then the Devils won the cup, and after people noticed it brought success, they started using it too. Jacques Lemaire, the Devil's coach from back then, was likely the NHL's pioneer for the trap.

So, to wrap things up, Wayne Gretzky didn't ruin hockey, Jacques Lemaire did.

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04-11-2004, 11:46 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Thats why scoring is on the rise because of all these new awsome hockey players. I personally don't care where they come from the players are not as good as they where 15 years ago. Some of my favorite players come from Europe ao to say that is the reason that I am saying that the talent pool is low is crazy. Every year that the leauge expands scoring goes down. I can guarantee that scoring would be a lot higher if Betman had not added so many new teams.
I am going to assume you are 14 years old with that so far off the mark comment that it belongs in national lampoon and not on a hockey discussion board. Scoring is down because of several reasons. The biggest reason is because the players are so damned good these days. The talent in the National Hockey League gets better each and every year.

15 years ago the players during the off season sat around got drunk and fat and only started to worry about thier bodies during training camp. Now the players are so machine like that they take care of thier bodies every day. Take for instance lets say, hmmm Kris Draper (was thinking of a middle of the road player) if you darted the year back to 1980 and had the same players then with the same conditioning Draper would score 70 goals.

You have to remember the goalies started wearing the extra equipment because of how hard the shots are now and how good the players are now. Watch any games from the 70's or 80's the goalies were half the size and had half the equipment. A guy like Bertuzzi would annually score 200 points with those conditions.

Also lets not forget the "trap" was started by the Montreal Canadians in the 70's so that would throw the Lemaire excuse out the window as well.

Face it we are lucky to watch the best hockey players the world has ever seen now and instead of finding fault lets enjoy it

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04-12-2004, 12:00 AM
  #19
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You guys are all knowledgable hockey fans and your opinions are much stronger than those of some other hockey boards I posted this at.

That said I used the ironic statement that Gretzk ruined hockey as a way to draw people in, and it worked lol. I dont think he ruined hockey, he did more for his sport than any other player ever did for theres. Im from Edmonton and I love hockey and Wayne Gretzky.

I had heard of the traps origins but I didnt unclude the Swedish parts because I didnt have all the facts, but I did use it as another take on the trap and its slow death of hockey.

In Canada the game will never die, players will always play here and in europe, we all love the game. The NHL may fail but another league will take its place.

Personally I think the addition of the instigator rule has hurt hockey more than anything else, take a look at how many players missed games from injury this season, its disgustingly high.

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04-12-2004, 05:35 AM
  #20
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What a disgrace towards the best player in the history of the league . And this guys pretend to like ''old-school'' hockey right ?

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04-12-2004, 05:57 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Jozeph_Balej
What a disgrace towards the best player in the history of the league . And this guys pretend to like ''old-school'' hockey right ?
How is it a disgrace? Can you read? Did you read it?

If anything its the best compliment Waynes ever recieved in saying he was so good that teams had to play such a style as to beat him. And if you had read it, youd see Gretzky is just an example to draw you in(worked didnt it? well maybe not in your case), its more wide range than that.

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04-12-2004, 06:57 AM
  #22
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Just for those of you who haven't grasped it yet, the headline (like many headlines) was used to draw people into the article and get reactions.

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04-12-2004, 12:07 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
The talent pool is not big enough to support the amount of teams in the NHL today.
What are talking about? That statement is so ridiculous. Do you think the league had enough talent for 21 teams in the 1980's? That was before the fall of the communist block and the great players from Russia, the Czech Republic and other countries joined the league.

I have said before, and some recently posted an article from 2001, that scoring is down because of the talent level in the league. Gone are the days when some Barry Melrose-type player was trying to stop the Wayne Gretzky's of the world, Zdeno Chara from Slovakia is back there.

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04-12-2004, 12:13 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Thats why scoring is on the rise because of all these new awsome hockey players. I personally don't care where they come from the players are not as good as they where 15 years ago. Some of my favorite players come from Europe ao to say that is the reason that I am saying that the talent pool is low is crazy. Every year that the leauge expands scoring goes down. I can guarantee that scoring would be a lot higher if Betman had not added so many new teams.
Just FYI, Gretzky said the biggest change in the league during his career was that the 3rd & 4th line forwards and 3rd pairing d-man could skate. At the start of his career, he could victimize half the players on the other team, but that wasn't the case at the end of his career.

You ever consider that the scoring going down doesn't have anything to do with the talent pool dilution? How about the improvements in team defense and goaltending? How about coachs trying to win (so they keep their jobs) by instituting defense first strategies? I think you really would need to do a hell of a lot more research than just blame the decrease in scoring on talent dilution.

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04-12-2004, 12:19 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonovanMD
You guys are all knowledgable hockey fans and your opinions are much stronger than those of some other hockey boards I posted this at.

That said I used the ironic statement that Gretzk ruined hockey as a way to draw people in, and it worked lol. I dont think he ruined hockey, he did more for his sport than any other player ever did for theres. Im from Edmonton and I love hockey and Wayne Gretzky.

I had heard of the traps origins but I didnt unclude the Swedish parts because I didnt have all the facts, but I did use it as another take on the trap and its slow death of hockey.

In Canada the game will never die, players will always play here and in europe, we all love the game. The NHL may fail but another league will take its place.

Personally I think the addition of the instigator rule has hurt hockey more than anything else, take a look at how many players missed games from injury this season, its disgustingly high.
You said NJ didn't have a superstar in winning its Cups. I'd call Brodeur a superstar.

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