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All-Time Draft #12, Part V

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Old
11-01-2009, 11:28 AM
  #76
overpass
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
First off, don't think I'm slamming the pick. It's a good pick for this point. But there's a reason he fell to the same spot he always falls to, and all the other NHA/PCHA stars saw a healthy rise - his scoring achievements aren't really that great. He's not the worst hall of famer ever, but there are a few non-HHOFers of the era who I am sure were better. Bernie Morris is obvious, but there is also Odie Cleghorn. Plus three undrafted players who are definitely better, and four who are arguable.
Stanley will be a spare on my team, and I think he fits well in that role. He can fill in on the blueline if necessary - I'm not sure how often he did so, but he's listed on the HHOF site as a RW/D. He also has a fairly good playmaking record, has good size, was a player-coach at times, and was inducted into the Hall of Fame. I haven't come across a lot of direct information on the type of player he was, but that profile sounds like an intelligent, defensively responsible player who can come into the lineup and fit in when needed. I'll post more if I come across it.

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11-01-2009, 11:34 AM
  #77
EagleBelfour
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I need to go, someone make my pick for me.

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11-01-2009, 11:45 AM
  #78
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I need to go, someone make my pick for me.
I still got your list.

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11-01-2009, 11:55 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Stanley will be a spare on my team, and I think he fits well in that role. He can fill in on the blueline if necessary - I'm not sure how often he did so, but he's listed on the HHOF site as a RW/D. He also has a fairly good playmaking record, has good size, was a player-coach at times, and was inducted into the Hall of Fame. I haven't come across a lot of direct information on the type of player he was, but that profile sounds like an intelligent, defensively responsible player who can come into the lineup and fit in when needed. I'll post more if I come across it.
According to The Trail, he played D in his very last season with Eddie Shore.

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11-01-2009, 12:43 PM
  #80
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i am on the clock and making my pick

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11-01-2009, 01:15 PM
  #81
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has cujo been picked yet

if not Ill take him

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11-01-2009, 01:18 PM
  #82
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Taken;

612 vancityluongo - Winnipeg Jets - Curtis Joseph, G

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Old
11-01-2009, 01:27 PM
  #83
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select Frank McCool G


cujo just went!


#1 Frank McCool,G
Quote:
Ulcers McCool was a talented enigmatic goalie who was so nervous before every game that he would vomit in between periods. Frank was discovered playing senior hockey in Calgary Alberta, his hometown, and was signed as a free agent by the Toronto Maple Leafs. McCOOL, nicknamed "Ulcers" because of his nervous condition, joined the Leafs and had a season to dream of. Playing every minute of the 50-game season, McCOOL led Toronto to a third place finish, and led the league in shutouts with four. He led the leafs to a Stanley cup and loss his job over a 500 dollar raise demand and because of the return of leaf great Turk Broda who was overseas in WWII. In 1945, Frank became the fourth National Hockey League goaltender to record four shutouts in one postseason, as he led the Maple Leafs to the Stanley Cup in his rookie season.That record stood till 2002 when Hasek broke it tallying 6 shutout and Brodeur equaled the domiantors record in 2003. He became the only goaltender to post three consecutive shutouts in the Stanley Cup finals since the NHL assumed total ownership of the silver chalice after the 1926 season.
The only other goalies with 3 straight postseason shutouts are Giguere, Ottawa's Patrick Lalime, St. Louis' Brent Johnson, and John Ross Roach of the 1929 New York Rangers.
RS:72 34 31 7 4 3.36
PO:13 8 5 4 2.23
NHL Seasons 2
Winner, Calder Memorial Trophy, 1944-45.
Member of Stanley Cup-champion Toronto Maple Leafs, 1945.
Best Season :1944-45 Toronto Maple Leafs 50 24 22 4 4 3.22
BackUp/Cup Winning goalie

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Old
11-01-2009, 01:32 PM
  #84
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A triple A back-up now? He had good post-season that year with the shutout streak, but it was his only playoff year and the guy played only 2 seasons in the regular season. I think you could have done a lot better.

I'll make EB's pick in a second.


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11-01-2009, 01:34 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Zamboni Mania View Post
skip me, i'll make it up tomorrow
With that, EB proudly selects Ed Sandford, LW

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11-01-2009, 01:43 PM
  #86
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The Cairo Desert Dogs are very happy not to have to trade up to get this guy. One of the toughest of his day, a good skater and playmaker, this man makes an excellent spare and can play both RW and D with proficency. The Cairo Desert Dogs select RW/D Ken Randall

----------------------------------------

I considered him quite strongly with my last pick to be my fourth line RW; it came down to I needed more of a goal-scorer as opposed to a playmaker there. With his ability to play both RW and D, toughness, and championship pedigree, I am glad to get him as a spare.

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11-01-2009, 02:03 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
The Cairo Desert Dogs are very happy not to have to trade up to get this guy. One of the toughest of his day, a good skater and playmaker, this man makes an excellent spare and can play both RW and D with proficency. The Cairo Desert Dogs select RW/D Ken Randall

----------------------------------------

I considered him quite strongly with my last pick to be my fourth line RW; it came down to I needed more of a goal-scorer as opposed to a playmaker there. With his ability to play both RW and D, toughness, and championship pedigree, I am glad to get him as a spare.
It was between him and Ezinicki for the 4th RW spot. I considered Ezinicki got everything better than Randall, except for the long career (Randall indeed had an extremely long career).

Then again, I thought about picking Randall with my last pick, but I actually prefered picking a guy being able to play all forward positions, as opposed to only one forward position + D.

By the way... McVeigh was the main guy I was alluding to earlier on, when I said there were some players I'd take way before Perk Galbraith for defensive duty, due to Galbraith's pretty bad offensive record. There is also another one who's unpicked at this point.

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11-01-2009, 02:23 PM
  #88
vancityluongo
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Alright, I should be on time regularly again from now on guys.

Could I get some opinions on my last three picks please - Svoboda, Simpson, and Jpseph. All three are guys that I've had on my long list for a while, and I've meant to research all three extensively, but haven't had the time. I know they probably weren't the three greatest picks, but some feedback from others would be much appreciated.

Here's my lineup as it is:

Coach Lemaire

Gillies - Thornton - Bossy
Kovalchuk - Savard - Hedberg
Lonsberry - Backstrom - Nystrom
Simpson - Steen - XXX

Pronger - Bouchard
Morrow - Heller
Greschner - Svoboda

Brodeur
Joseph

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Old
11-01-2009, 02:27 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
In terms of results, Henry may be similar to Kerr. But it's hard for me and maybe for others to picture Henry in the ATD setting because he's so small and plays what we picture as a big man's role - tips and rebounds around the net on the power play. There aren't really any other players like him. That's not to say he can't fill that role at this level, just that it's not easy to see.
I would say your skepticism is warranted, and was shared by Rangers management before Henry established himself in the NHL. To wit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inside Hockey
Rangers’ management took a chance and kept the kid who had scored over 100 goals in his last two years of junior play. Used almost exclusively on the power-play because coaches, Frank Boucher and later **** *******, didn’t think he could hold his own when the teams played five-on-five, Henry answered the call, picking up 24 goals in 1953-54. Fifteen of them came on the power-play, a team rookie record that stood until last season. A late season four-goal outburst against Terry Sawchuk made the rest of the league sit up and take notice of the rookie, who ended the season with the Calder Trophy, repeating Gump Worsley’s exploit of the previous season.
I'm sure everyone has the common doubts about how a tiny guy like Henry could function in the big, bad NHL, but his talent for avoiding punishment seems to have been quite extraordinary. I have sometimes wondered if it is not better to be tiny than merely small in the NHL, and Henry is perhaps the best example of that point. Being small is dangerous, as you are more susceptible to being pushed around and injured by contact, but being truly tiny makes you a harder target, if you are also fast and shifty. Henry seems to have been actually smaller than his listed size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inside Hockey
The Quebec City native wasn’t a big kid and he never really put on a growth spurt either. Listed at 5’ 7”, 152 pounds, he was probably both shorter and lighter.
from the New York Times...

Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times
The diminutive left wing was listed at anywhere from 5 feet 8 inches to 5 feet 10 inches and weighing between 148 and 152 pounds.

''If that was so, I think he must have had some bricks in his pants when they weighed him,'' Andy Bathgate, Henry's longtime teammate and legendary Rangers captain, said yesterday.

When ***** ******* became the Rangers' coach on Dec. 5, 1965, he had his players weigh in at training camp. ******* said Henry asked him not to post his weight for fear of embarrassment. The actual figures: 5 feet 7 inches and 138 pounds.

''And I never put his weight on that chart once,'' ******* said. ''If I would have, they would have said this guy should be a jockey or something. We used to measure them for body fat, too. Well, he didn't have any.''
Henry wasn't merely small; he was a smurf. And yet one wonders if the extremity of his smallness didn't actually help him. He was apparently quite difficult to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inside Hockey
The diminutive forward was a natural skater and a pure stick-handler, skills he picked up early that carried him to the NHL despite his small stature.

...By now one of the most popular athletes in New York, the lean Henry’s slippery skill at weaving in and out of traffic without ever seeming to get hit, earned him a nickname, the Eel.

...Henry’s Ranger years saw him rack up five more 20-goal seasons as he kept proving that opponents couldn’t hit what they couldn’t catch.
from Legends...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends
They called CAMILLE HENRY "the Eel." Although small (5'9" and 150 pounds), HENRY was deceptively fast and could stickhandle in a phone booth.
...and maybe most interesting, from SI...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Illustrated
No single trade, not even Andy's, has upset Ranger fans as much. Not only was Henry the second Ranger captain and high scorer to be traded away in two seasons, he was the league's most accurate shooter as well. Cammy hit on nearly 25% of his scoring opportunities, and scoring opportunities with a team like the Rangers are not easily come by. Up to the time of his trade, Henry had scored 21 goals for the Rangers in the current season, and 19 of them were "important" goals, i.e., first, winning, tying or insurance goals.
That last bit I find most interesting. A 25% shooting percentage for a high-scoring forward is simply otherworldly, but perhaps it took just that kind of talent for a man of Henry's build to be successful in the NHL. Of course, if you're good at it, deflecting pucks out of the air probably carries a very high success rate as compared to normal shots. At any rate, Henry seems to have been a man with quite remarkable hand-eye coordination - one who needed few opportunities to convert.

It seems clear enough why Henry was successful. But how successful was he? I don't have the season-by-season breakdown of powerplay scoring for most of this period, but I do have the data (courtesy of hockeyreference) for the last two of Henry's prime seasons: 63-64 and 64-65. Henry scored 9 powerplay goals in 63-64, which was good for 6th in the NHL, with Mikita and Wharram the league leaders at 14 each. In 64-65, Henry led the league with 16 powerplay goals, with Gordie Howe coming in second with 12. Over these two seasons, Henry led all of the NHL with 25 powerplay goals, with Gordie Howe 2nd at 24 and Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita tied for 3rd at 22. So we know Henry was the best powerplay goalscorer in the NHL during the last two years of his prime, but what about the rest?

Well, clearly 20 powerplay goals in his rookie season would be an almost ridiculous number. My source (Inside Hockey above) indicates that he scored only 15, which still likely led the league that season. Skipping over the two following years in which the Rangers jerked him between Providence and New York, Henry scored 155 goals in the six seasons between 57-58 and 62-63. If we roughly assume he scored at his career rate over this period, 45% of 155 gives us 70 goals. Spread that over 6 seasons, and Henry was averaging about 11.5 powerplay goals per season, which includes 60 missed games (almost a full season) during this time. When healthy (which he wasn't always, though his problems weren't extreme), Henry was quite possibly the most productive powerplay goalscorer in the league during this period (again, I don't have the powerplay numbers), and if he wasn't, he was must have been very close.

That is serious production. We are talking about a left wing whose value on the powerplay rivals that of the greatest wingers of all time, which is an easy comparison to make because he played in the era of Howe and Hull and was on their level as a powerplay goalscorer. Could Henry succeed in an ATD? Why not? He was clearly not your average small forward. He played for the Rangers during the O6 era - arguably the single hardest situation in NHL history in which to excell on the powerplay. I shouldn't have to list the players who would have populated the 1st unit PKs of New York's opponents during this period, or the men who stood in goal.

Camille Henry scored heaps of powerplay goals against ATD-quality (or better, in some cases) penalty kills. I see no reason why he couldn't do it in the actual ATD. In fact, given his performance relative to some of the greatest wingers of all-time, he seems to be a high-end 1st unit ATD powerplay goalscorer, or a simply ridiculous 2nd unit player. Given that Phil Esposito will stand in front of the net on Portland's 1st unit powerplay, making Henry the focal point of the 2nd unit is our most likely approach.

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Old
11-01-2009, 02:36 PM
  #90
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Alright, I should be on time regularly again from now on guys.

Could I get some opinions on my last three picks please - Svoboda, Simpson, and Jpseph. All three are guys that I've had on my long list for a while, and I've meant to research all three extensively, but haven't had the time. I know they probably weren't the three greatest picks, but some feedback from others would be much appreciated.
I'll gladly give you feedback on him, here's what I said earlier:

Quote:
He's a guy that confused me when I looked at him. Not a lot was said of him in past drafts, it seems. He's described as a two-way defencemen, and yet his offensive stats didn't seem very good to me outside of one good playoff, only breaking 40+ points once in his NHL career, and not appearing to do well in points amongst defencemen (at least of the stats I looked at). He is described as having some good tools for an offensive-defenceman, but it doesn't appear to translate well. Although his defensive and intangible game is evident in the sources I use, it doesn't seem to be called any better than his offensive game, or that his defensive game per say was more his style than offense.

He certainly has some good memorable moments in his career, but in the interest of learning more about the best in hockey history, I must inquire; what makes Petr Svoboda good enough to be selected at this level? Am I missing something? Do you have to watch him to understand?

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11-01-2009, 02:49 PM
  #91
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When it comes to Svoboda, and defencemen in general, I want to know whether he's going to be able to make a good first pass, and if he can skate the puck up ice. Yes, numbers are nice. They tell you something, but they don't paint the picture. Sometimes it can be a matter of opportunity or system.

Svoboda made a good first pass, and he skated well. He's not a defenceman who's going to need to bank the puck off the boards and out to get it to a teammate. He's a solid, steady, reliable third pairing guy who'll partner well with the more aggressive Ron Greschner.

I'm a big Simpson fan. No secret there. Love his goal-scoring ability and his drive to the front of the net. He'd be a second line candidate if he wasn't basically done in his mid-20s due to his back injury. But he knows how to score goals, and his playoff record is superb. Just not completely sold on him for a fourth line - I'd like someone a little better defensively.

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11-01-2009, 02:50 PM
  #92
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Old
11-01-2009, 02:50 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I'll gladly give you feedback on him, here's what I said earlier:
I must've missed that post earlier then.

Basically I guess, I drafted him to be a defensive conscience for Ron Greschner, without being an absolute blackhole on offense. As a number 6 defenseman, I guess that's about as much as I could expect to get. However, I can't really tell if he is good enough to be the guy to cover for Gresch. I too am having some doubts if he's good enough to be selected at this level; however, I took him lower than he's gone the past two drafts (haven't checked before that), and you're right, not much was said about him then.

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11-01-2009, 02:55 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
When it comes to Svoboda, and defencemen in general, I want to know whether he's going to be able to make a good first pass, and if he can skate the puck up ice. Yes, numbers are nice. They tell you something, but they don't paint the picture. Sometimes it can be a matter of opportunity or system.

Svoboda made a good first pass, and he skated well. He's not a defenceman who's going to need to bank the puck off the boards and out to get it to a teammate. He's a solid, steady, reliable third pairing guy who'll partner well with the more aggressive Ron Greschner.

I'm a big Simpson fan. No secret there. Love his goal-scoring ability and his drive to the front of the net. He'd be a second line candidate if he wasn't basically done in his mid-20s due to his back injury. But he knows how to score goals, and his playoff record is superb. Just not completely sold on him for a fourth line - I'd like someone a little better defensively.
Knew I could count on you as well GBC. That's exactly what I wanted to hear regarding Svoboda.

Not really too sure about Simpson then. Sounds like someone I could swap with Kovalchuk on the second line come playoff time, possibly, or would that be a no? And I'm starting to get worried about my lack of defensive forwards. Backstrom, Nystrom, Gillies, Lonsberry?

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11-01-2009, 02:58 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
And I'm starting to get worried about my lack of defensive forwards. Backstrom, Nystrom, Gillies, Lonsberry?
Well, you know what to do about that...

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Old
11-01-2009, 03:04 PM
  #96
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Svoboda played a simple yet effective game. He also worked hard - but that leads to the fact that he always played bigger than he actually was, and as result he missed a ton of time with injuries (he averaged just about 60 GP in his career - almost 65 if we take out the lockout season and his last one). He makes a fine bottom pairing guy, just make sure you have quality injury replacement ready.

Joseph was a top 5 goalie among those left when you picked him. Not a particular fan of Simpson in a bottom 6 role.

I'm surprised no one commented on my Smy/iths.

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11-01-2009, 03:15 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
When it comes to Svoboda, and defencemen in general, I want to know whether he's going to be able to make a good first pass, and if he can skate the puck up ice. Yes, numbers are nice. They tell you something, but they don't paint the picture. Sometimes it can be a matter of opportunity or system.

Svoboda made a good first pass, and he skated well. He's not a defenceman who's going to need to bank the puck off the boards and out to get it to a teammate. He's a solid, steady, reliable third pairing guy who'll partner well with the more aggressive Ron Greschner.
Players can certainly perform well on bad teams. Opportunity, I think, is a result of play; not the other way around necessarly. The best defencemen get the minutes. He wasn't exactly playing on stacked defenceman teams after Montreal to my knowledge.

A good first pass and good skating are likely things that can be said about many defencemen playing in many era's that aren't going to get picked. Him being able to do that isn't really enough to sell me on him being a good third-pairing guy.

We are supposedly looking for players that were the best, or amongst the best, and I am not seeing where Svoboda was amongst the best in.


Last edited by Leafs Forever: 11-01-2009 at 03:47 PM.
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11-01-2009, 03:25 PM
  #98
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With that, EB proudly selects Ed Sandford, LW
Thank you for making my selection LF.

Unfortunately, there's not a lot of info on Sandford around. I've got some stuff, but clearly not as much as I would like to. Sandford is an interesting player though, A big and strong player, a defensive forward who won a Retro Conn Smythe in a losing cause due to his great performance and the next year was a second All-Star deal, mostly due of his defensive prowess.

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11-01-2009, 03:44 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Svoboda played a simple yet effective game. He also worked hard - but that leads to the fact that he always played bigger than he actually was, and as result he missed a ton of time with injuries (he averaged just about 60 GP in his career - almost 65 if we take out the lockout season and his last one). He makes a fine bottom pairing guy, just make sure you have quality injury replacement ready.

Joseph was a top 5 goalie among those left when you picked him. Not a particular fan of Simpson in a bottom 6 role.

I'm surprised no one commented on my Smy/iths.
I like Ryan Smyth. I think he's a great character guy for your fourth line. Had he fell another couple rounds, I probably would've taken him.

More reassurance on Svoboda, good to see. Starting to really wonder if some of the others I had instead of Simpson would've been better though...

Thanks for all of the replies, guys.

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11-01-2009, 03:52 PM
  #100
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Well, clearly 20 powerplay goals in his rookie season would be an almost ridiculous number. My source (Inside Hockey above) indicates that he scored only 15, which still likely led the league that season.
My source for that was The New York Rangers: Broadway Longest Running Hit. The lower number does sound more reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
When healthy (which he wasn't always, though his problems weren't extreme), Henry was quite possibly the most productive powerplay goalscorer in the league during this period (again, I don't have the powerplay numbers), and if he wasn't, he was must have been very close.
I have the power play numbers from 1954-55 on, compiled from the Hockey Summary Project data.

Power Play Scoring for Camille Henry
1954-55: 5 goals, 2 assists, 7 points
1956-57: 8 goals (t6), 7 assists, 15 points
1957-58: 18 goals (1), 12 assists, 30 points (2)
1958-59: 10 goals (5), 20 assists (t2), 30 points (3)
1959-60: 4 goals, 7 assists, 11 points
1960-61: 8 goals (t5), 8 assists, 16 points (10)
1961-62: 6 goals, 4 assists, 10 points
1962-63: 12 goals (2), 6 assists, 18 points (t7)
1963-64: 9 goals (6), 8 assists, 17 points (t7)
1964-65: 16 goals (1), 6 assists, 22 points (t7)

Top power play goal scorers from 1954-55 to 1964-65
1. Jean Beliveau, 141 goals
2. Gordie Howe, 125 goals
3. Camille Henry, 96 goals
4. Bernie Geoffrion, 94 goals
5. Bobby Hull, 89 goals

Top power play points from 1954-55 to 1964-65
1. Jean Beliveau, 335 points
2. Gordie Howe, 332 points
3. Andy Bathgate, 261 points
4. Bernie Geoffrion, 242 points
5. Alex Delvecchio, 220 points
6. Bobby Hull, 181 points
7. Stan Mikita, 178 points
8. Camille Henry, 174 points
9. Dickie Moore, 173 points
10. Doug Harvey, 160 points

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