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All-Time Draft #12, Part V

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Old
11-02-2009, 12:31 PM
  #176
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With our 21st round pick and the 643rd selection of the draft the Syracuse Bulldogs are proud to select ...

Mike Vernon, G

- Second Team All-Star 1989
- Conn Smythe Trophy Winner 1997
- William Jennings Trophy 1996
- played in the All-Star game 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993
- Stanley Cup Champion 1989, 1997
- Finished in the Top Ten in Goalie Wins 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1998
- Led the NHL in Goalie Wins 1989
- Finished in the Top Ten in Goalie Shutouts 1987, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1998
- Finished in the Top Ten in Goals Against Average 1989, 1990, 1996, 1997, 1999
- Finsihed in the Top Ten in Save Percentage 1989, 2000
- Finished tenth in Vezina Trophy voting in 1987
- Finished fifth in Vezina Trophy voting in 1988
- Finished second in Vezina Trophy voting in 1989
- Finished twelth in Vezina Trophy voting in 1991
- Finished fourth in Vezina Trophy voting in 1995
- Finished ninth in Vezina Trophy voting in 1998

Quote:
Joe Pelletier
Vernon is best remembered for backstopping the Calgary Flames all the way to the 1989 Stanley Cup championship, Calgary's only title. While the team featured Calgary Flames legends including the likes of Lanny McDonald, Joe Mullen, Al MacInnis, Doug Gilmour, Joe Nieuwendyk, Joel Otto, and xxx xxxx, it was the hometown hero in between the pipes that was the difference maker.

Vernon is also fondly remembered as a Detroit Red Wing, leading them to two Stanley Cup finals, winning in 1997 while being named as the Conn Smythe Trophy winner as playoff MVP.

Vernon was a two time Stanley Cup champion, a Smythe trophy MVP, a 5 time all star, a 385 game winner, but he was not necessarily a star. In fact, he remains highly underrated despite a resume that should get him serious Hall of Fame consideration.

As dependable as he was successful, Mike Vernon definitely played in the shadows of his peers. His chief rivals were the far more prolific Patrick Roy and and far more flamboyant Grant Fuhr. Also, he was not as unflappable as Martin Brodeur, and not as theatrical as Dominik Hasek.

Of Vernon's era, I would class him below this elite level, placing him somewhere in a group that includes Ed Belfour, xxx xxxx, Curtis Joseph, Mike Richter and xxx xxxx.
Quote:
Globe and Mail, 2007
Of all the things that Vernon accomplished in his career — a second Stanley Cup championship with the Detroit Red Wings, a Conn Smythe Trophy as the playoff MVP — perhaps the most extraordinary (and the thing that may one day get him into the Hockey Hall Of Fame) is that head-to-head, against the two greatest goalies of his generation, Fuhr and Patrick Roy, Vernon had a winning record against both (18-8-8 against Fuhr, 14-9-2 against Roy).

To a man, his teammates on that '89 team believe they are wearing Stanley Cup rings because of Vernon's play in goal.

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Old
11-02-2009, 12:38 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Even that don't make sense
Sure it does. Bellows, at the time that he was selected, had the 2nd-most career points among available players. How much mor sense do you want it to make?

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11-02-2009, 12:45 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Sure it does. Bellows, at the time that he was selected, had the 2nd-most career points among available players. How much mor sense do you want it to make?
I was trying to be an ass and correct your grammar, but now it's not funny anymore

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Old
11-02-2009, 12:47 PM
  #179
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Ew Vernon.

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Old
11-02-2009, 01:04 PM
  #180
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I'll be around for most of the rest of the day in case anyone needs to send in a list.

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Old
11-02-2009, 02:06 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I don't have evidence that they were particularily effective on the powerplay, but nobody has evidence they weren't either.

And he probably had to somewhere, since he outscored his linemates by pretty decent margins.

Do Dillon has the pre-40 record for straight seasons with 30+ points?
Dillon was also a 2nd liner (Even if he was better than some teams 1st line RW.) in an era where 2nd liners would often never see power play action. And even then, an argument could be made Henry is the better goal scorer.

Top 10 finishes:
Henry-2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 7th
Dillon-2nd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 6th

That said, I fully respect that Dillon is significantly better defensively and the better playmaker.

And Hextall, as Sturminator said, a lack of negative evidence is not positive evidence. Without any evidence either way, I think we'd all have to assume that he is an average power play performer for his skill level. Whereas Henry is proven as an elite power play scorer, as in, he'd be some teams best pp goal scorer.

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Last edited by Nalyd Psycho: 11-02-2009 at 02:35 PM.
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Old
11-02-2009, 02:31 PM
  #182
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The Bettman's time has elapsed. arrbez is now on the clock, and he will be PMed.

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Old
11-02-2009, 05:02 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungosi View Post
D Dave Langevin
Ooh you *******. Would've fit in nicely on my team as my 7th, especially with the rest of my Isles dynasty core.

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Old
11-02-2009, 05:28 PM
  #184
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Trade to announce:

To Winnipeg- Troy Murray, Dave Andreychuk, pick 698
To Kimberley- Thomas Steen, pick 669, pick 676

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Old
11-02-2009, 05:30 PM
  #185
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Hey guys, sorry for the wait. Thought I'd be home earlier than this.

Just gimme a couple minutes to see who's been picked and then I'll have mine.

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Old
11-02-2009, 05:34 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Trade to announce:

To Winnipeg- Troy Murray, Dave Andreychuk, pick 698
To Kimberley- Thomas Steen, pick 669, pick 676
Wouldn't mind hearing rationale's on that one.

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Old
11-02-2009, 05:36 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Trade to announce:

To Winnipeg- Troy Murray, Dave Andreychuk, pick 698
To Kimberley- Thomas Steen, pick 669, pick 676
Confirmed. Surprise surprise, look who just made another trade...

I hate to trade Thomas Steen. He's a guy that I've wanted forever. Just the type of player you never want to trade, in real life or in the ATD. But, I had to in this case, and hopefully he'd understand. I'll let Bugg explain his end of the deal himself, but I know he was dead set on Steen. And while I didn't want to part with him, I needed some better two-way players in my bottom-6. Jacques Lemaire players. Murray for sure is one of those guys, as is Andreychuk. They'll fit nicely in contrast to my explosive top-6 featuring guys like Bossy and Kovalchuk.

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11-02-2009, 05:56 PM
  #188
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Inglewood selects a legendary Maple Leaf, Senator, and Blue. The highest-scoring goaltender of all-time:

Tom Barrasso



Also:
Vezina winner
3-time post-season allstar
5-time Vezina finalist (1, 2, 2, 2, 3)
2-time Stanley Cup Champion

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Old
11-02-2009, 05:59 PM
  #189
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So did Red send in a list before he called it a night? If not, Buggy will be on the clock at 9:56 p.m. EST.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:00 PM
  #190
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I was wondering if someone was going to take him; he certainly has the skill to be up in the ATD.

Do you intend to have him back-up Hap Holmes though?

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:05 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I was wondering if someone was going to take him; he certainly has the skill to be up in the ATD.

Do you intend to have him back-up Hap Holmes though?
Barrasso's a hard guy to pick, though. Is he one of the top 64 goalies ever? Undeniably. I think he's top 35, top 40 at worst. He's one of the biggest goalies in the draft, and he'll probably be one of the best puck-moving goalies. Brodeur and Hextall are the only ones who stand out as being better.

The problem with Barrasso is attitude. Will he buy into being a back-up? Probably not. Among the goalies, he's maybe the one with the worst attitude. He falls just short of being a No. 1, yet he doesn't fit as a No. 2 because he's not going to bring the attitude or the demeanour that you want, and need, to be a back-up.

Ability-wise, Barrasso's one of the top five back-ups in the draft. Just behind Lehman and Chabot, on par with Vernon, Dzurilla and Crozier. But he should never be a back-up.

And I think that's why he was left off of Team USA's roster as the No. 3 in 1996 (behind Richter and Beezer), because they knew Barrasso couldn't handle being the back-up.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:05 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Inglewood selects a legendary Maple Leaf, Senator, and Blue. The highest-scoring goaltender of all-time:

Tom Barrasso



Also:
Vezina winner
3-time post-season allstar
5-time Vezina finalist (1, 2, 2, 2, 3)
2-time Stanley Cup Champion
Kudos to you for not getting scared off by his "attitude". There is no way he should slip to the MLD where a vulture like me can pick him up and ride him to the finals. He was the BGA at this point.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:15 PM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Kudos to you for not getting scared off by his "attitude". There is no way he should slip to the MLD where a vulture like me can pick him up and ride him to the finals. He was the BGA at this point.
I've always said that attitude concerns are way overblown in this (this applies to guys like Bure, etc). Maybe cause for concern if you have a team full of jerks, but one surly ass in the locker room is hardly the end of the world.

Barrasso at this point was far too good to pass up. On top of backstopping an almost-dynasty, he was a FIVE time Vezina finalist. If he was a loveable cuddly guy, I really feel he'd be in the Hall.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:21 PM
  #194
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From my MLD Barrasso bio:

Shots against per 60 minutes by the last 24 cup-winners:

1991 Barrasso 32.12
1992 Barrasso 30.27
1993 Roy 30.02

1985 Fuhr 29.44
*** 28.78
*** 28.45

1996 Roy 26.78
1987 Fuhr 26.71
*** 26.55
1994 Richter 26.38

1998 Osgood 25.92
2001 Roy 25.72
*** 25.61
*** 25.36
2003 Brodeur 25.03
1986 Roy 24.93
1988 Fuhr 24.88
1997 Vernon 24.12

1999 Belfour 23.98
1989 Vernon 23.90
2002 Hasek 23.18
1995 Brodeur 22.73
2008 Osgood 22.24
2000 Brodeur 22.22

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:25 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Trade to announce:

To Winnipeg- Troy Murray, Dave Andreychuk, pick 698
To Kimberley- Thomas Steen, pick 669, pick 676
I think Steen and Murray are pretty close in value. Then the question becomes: Is Andreychuk good enough to make this veto-worthy?

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:30 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Steen and Murray are pretty close in value. Then the question becomes: Is Andreychuk good enough to make this veto-worthy?
I say no.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:34 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
And I think that's why he was left off of Team USA's roster as the No. 3 in 1996 (behind Richter and Beezer), because they knew Barrasso couldn't handle being the back-up.
He was the backup at the 1987 Canada Cup, although it was before his prime and he was also the number 3 at the 2002 Olympics, although at that time his skills were obviously not what they once were.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:34 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
I've always said that attitude concerns are way overblown in this (this applies to guys like Bure, etc). Maybe cause for concern if you have a team full of jerks, but one surly ass in the locker room is hardly the end of the world.

Barrasso at this point was far too good to pass up. On top of backstopping an almost-dynasty, he was a FIVE time Vezina finalist. If he was a loveable cuddly guy, I really feel he'd be in the Hall.
I will agree with you that if he was a "lovable, cuddly guy" or even a Vernon or Richter in terms of attitude, Barrasso would be in the HHOF. Outside of Vachon and Chabot, Barrasso's probably the best North American goalie not in the HHOF. The amazing thing is that he really ran into some injury problems in his later years, especially after 1992-83. The one time he managed to stay healthy, 1997-98, he was a Vezina finalist.

There's a difference, though, in terms of attitude for a first line guy like Bure, and a back-up goalie like Barrasso. You tolerate with Bure. If Barrasso's your No. 1, you tolerate it. But as far as No. 2 goalies are concerned, you don't. A back-up who sulks and pouts usually winds up out of a job in a hurry. You need your back-up, your fourth line forwards, your third pairing defencemen, and your spares to be a lot of things. One of them is a positive influence. You need them to buy into their roles and check their egos at the door. If they don't, that's often where a fractured locker room begins.

He needs to be a No. 1. He doesn't have the mentality to be a No. 2.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:35 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Steen and Murray are pretty close in value. Then the question becomes: Is Andreychuk good enough to make this veto-worthy?
One team may have gotten the better deal, but I don't think anyone was taken advantage of and it doesn't upset the competitive balance sufficiently to be vetoed.

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Old
11-02-2009, 06:35 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I say no.
Just out of curiousity; is that a straight up no, or just a not veto-worthy no?

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