Last year Kevin Dallman was one of the top, if not the top player in the KHL. I believe he is the leading scorer on defense again this year. Unfortunately I think most of the North Americans that don't make the NHL end up retiring instead of going to play in Europe.
Last edited by Mr Kanadensisk: 11-07-2009 at 05:50 PM.
Last year Kevin Dallman was one of the top, if not the top player in the KHL. I believe he is the leading scorer on defense again this year. Unfortunately I think most of the North Americans that don't make the NHL end up retiring instead of going to play in Europe.
Yeah right and that´s why such a small number as 181 Canadian players alone play in the top 6 European leagues and that is while some of those leagues have restrictions on imports.
Btw Dallman was NOT the best player in the KHL last year.
Yeah right and that´s why such a small number as 181 Canadian players alone play in the top 6 European leagues and that is while some of those leagues have restrictions on imports.
You do realize that Canada has more people playing hockey than all of Europe and Asia combined. If Canadians had both equal access to and the desire to be in the European leagues, then you would see approximately the same numbers of Canadians and Europeans in these leagues. Clearly with 181 players that is not the case now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiaforever
Btw Dallman was NOT the best player in the KHL last year.
As a Dman he finished 5th in league scoring, out scored all other defencemen and outscored 99% of the leagues forwards, I'd say that deserves consideration as one of the best.
Last edited by Mr Kanadensisk: 11-07-2009 at 09:45 PM.
You do realize that Canada has more people playing hockey than all of Europe and Asia combined. If Canadians had both equal access to and the desire to be in the European leagues, then you would see approximately the same numbers of Canadians and Europeans in these leagues. Clearly with 181 players that is not the case now.
As a Dman he finished 5th in league scoring, out scored all other defencemen and outscored 99% of the leagues forwards, I'd say that deserves consideration as one of the best.
From what I understand, Dallman was a sideshow on a bad team. The team's style was centered around getting him points as an attraction.
You do realize that Canada has more people playing hockey than all of Europe and Asia combined. If Canadians had both equal access to and the desire to be in the European leagues, then you would see approximately the same numbers of Canadians and Europeans in these leagues. Clearly with 181 players that is not the case now.
YOu do realize that not all of Canada´s players are equal? You were mentioning those that don´t make it to the NHL and with that I meant that at least somehow cam close to that and most of those do either end up in NA minor leagues and Europe. If most of those that don´t make it retire why does Canada have over 147 000 men´s players? And the claim that if Canadian´s had equal acces that they would be the same number of Europeans and Canadians is nonsense. The reason why there are restrictions on imports is that there is not a high number of those imports that would actually be better than the home players. Just look at DEL- 94 Canadian players, the most from the 6 counted leagues and surprise, surprise it is the worst one of those 6 and no limit on imports is one of the reasons why German hockey has struggled in the past few years. Another thing is, I mentioned only the 6 leagues, but you realize that in Europe there are less developed leagues in almost all countries and those countries tend to have way more Canadians than most of the top leagues minus DEL:
EBEL 51
Al-Bank Ligaen 21
Serie A 49
Ligue Magnus 38
EIHL 55
If most of those that don´t make it retire why does Canada have over 147 000 men´s players?
Maybe because Men's recreational hockey is very popular in Canada, I obviously meant retiring from competitive hockey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiaforever
And the claim that if Canadian´s had equal acces that they would be the same number of Europeans and Canadians is nonsense.
I said if they had equal access AND the desire to play in Europe. I realize who the Slovak's were allied with 70 years ago, but please drop this master race bs. One for one Canadian players are just as good as anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiaforever
The reason why there are restrictions on imports is that there is not a high number of those imports that would actually be better than the home players.
This statement is clearly not true and it shows either you are not all there or you have an anti Canadian political agenda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiaforever
Just look at DEL- 94 Canadian players, the most from the 6 counted leagues and surprise, surprise it is the worst one of those 6 and no limit on imports is one of the reasons why German hockey has struggled in the past few years. Another thing is, I mentioned only the 6 leagues, but you realize that in Europe there are less developed leagues in almost all countries and those countries tend to have way more Canadians than most of the top leagues minus DEL:
EBEL 51
Al-Bank Ligaen 21
Serie A 49
Ligue Magnus 38
EIHL 55
Just a few examples.
I'm not arguing against the import rules in Europe. Clearly the rules are there to help develop domestic players, just simply stating that it is one factor which effects the number of foreign players in Europe.
Maybe because Men's recreational hockey is very popular in Canada, I obviously meant retiring from competitive hockey.
I said if they had equal access AND the desire to play in Europe. I realize who the Slovak's were allied with 70 years ago, but please drop this master race bs. One for one Canadian players are just as good as anyone else.
This statement is clearly not true and it shows either you are not all there or you have an anti Canadian political agenda.
I'm not arguing against the import rules in Europe. Clearly the rules are there to help develop domestic players, just simply stating that it is one factor which effects the number of foreign players in Europe.
First of all, if I have any political agenda then it is oriented on the West and if I have any anti-political agenda then it is against Mr. Putin´s Russia and his autocrative regime. You remember these "allies" of ours sent us tanks for 30 years over here, right?
I´ve got nothing against Caniadians, but I hate it when you guys believe that every single one of your players is better or equal with Europeans. I clearly showed you an example with the DEL as the league with the most Canadians in Europe and the leagues is one of the worst when you consider the ecnomical possibilities Germany has. And it´s not like those Canadian players are some garbage ones, they often have years of NHL and AHL experience.
Unfortunately I think most of the North Americans that don't make the NHL end up retiring instead of going to play in Europe.
That is simply wrong, and you know it. Most of them don't retire, in fact, hardly anyone does. Obviously those who were far away from getting anywhere in professional hockey do retire, but those were never anywhere close to making the NHL in the first place, thus they have no place in the discussion.
Those who can't make it to the NHL usually toil as a veteran in the AHL or go to Europe to make more money, sometimes going back and forth.
Apart from that, this has absolutely nothing to do with the question that was asked, so why bring it up in the first place?
To go back on topic, that question is hard to answer. There is a difference between being the most skillful and the most successful. Not to mention that you also have to look at the style of play. Player A may be better than player B in North America, but that doesn't mean that he is the better player in Europe.
That is simply wrong, and you know it. Most of them don't retire, in fact, hardly anyone does. Obviously those who were far away from getting anywhere in professional hockey do retire, but those were never anywhere close to making the NHL in the first place, thus they have no place in the discussion.
Those who can't make it to the NHL usually toil as a veteran in the AHL or go to Europe to make more money, sometimes going back and forth.
The vast vast majority of Canadian Major Junior and NCAA players who don't get drafted into the NHL end up retiring from competitive hockey once they are finished in those programs. Just because they didn't get drafted into the NHL doesn't mean that they could not make it in a European league, but for most North Americans their dream is to be in the NHL and once they realize that it is likely not going to happen they move on with their lives. Yes there are players who keep going and play in Europe, but to say that the majority of them do this is simply wrong.
Not a bad player but certainly not the best Canadian in Europe. Guy kept producing great numbers in Tappara with Lehterä, but did nothing when he was placed in the 2nd line. He was a top-5 Canadian in Finland though.
Canadians in SM-liiga IMHO:
1. Kurtis McLean
2. Steve Kariya
3. Shayne Toporowski
4. Ross Lupachuk
5. Lee Goren (if he still played in Finland)
6. Colby Genoway
7. Dale Clarke
8. Tyler Redenbach
9. Scott Barney
10. Darcy Campbell
That is simply wrong, and you know it. Most of them don't retire, in fact, hardly anyone does. Obviously those who were far away from getting anywhere in professional hockey do retire, but those were never anywhere close to making the NHL in the first place, thus they have no place in the discussion.
Those who can't make it to the NHL usually toil as a veteran in the AHL or go to Europe to make more money, sometimes going back and forth.
Correct.
Most competitive players don’t retire because their NHL dream is over; they retire because they lack the skills to earn a solid living from the game (meaning they’re not good enough for upper Euro leagues anyways).
With the average AHL salary of around $60+K and with almost double that to be made in Europe, your typical AHL talent is NOT retiring once the NHL is out of reach - especially considering the “hockey first” competitive player probably lacks the education to make that $$ in another line of work.
It’s the hoards of ECHL level players that are quitting....but like you said, they have little relevance to this discussion.
Most competitive players don’t retire because their NHL dream is over; they retire because they lack the skills to earn a solid living from the game (meaning they’re not good enough for upper Euro leagues anyways).
With the average AHL salary of around $60+K and with almost double that to be made in Europe, your typical AHL talent is NOT retiring once the NHL is out of reach - especially considering the “hockey first” competitive player probably lacks the education to make that $$ in another line of work.
It’s the hoards of ECHL level players that are quitting....but like you said, they have little relevance to this discussion.
So why is it that relative to our overall participation numbers there are so few North Americans playing professionally in Europe?
So why is it that relative to our overall participation numbers there are so few North Americans playing professionally in Europe?
It’s due to a combination of import restrictions and players not being good enough. Remember, an import has to be better than a domestic player to earn a job. Those that aren't generally stay as career AHLers.
As slovakiaforever illustrated, the proof is with the DEL and NLA which are the leagues with weakened and no import restrictions. These 2 leagues house the largest amount of North Americans and generally the best North Americans not in the NHL (aka the players who’d be tearing up the AHL but lack the potential of the younger AHL prospects).....and yet they are 2 of the weaker European leagues.
Also take into consideration there's not much need for the 3rd/4th line 'grinder' type which makes up a sizeable chunk of NA playing population.
It’s due to a combination of import restrictions and players not being good enough.
So how is it that there are so many more people playing hockey in NA and yet so few that are good enough to play in Europe? Why do the European leagues need to restrict the number of foreign players, sounds to me that you are saying it is not necessary anyway?
The truth is that if North Americans had free access to and the desire to play in Europe then they would be represented in numbers proportional to overall player participation, just as Europeans are in the NHL. Yes there would be a variance of a few percent either way, but once again your claim that North Americans aren't good enough is just another dose of your zealous nationalism.
Last edited by Mr Kanadensisk: 11-17-2009 at 04:11 PM.
There are very few Canadians in the SEL (Sweden), at this moment only 16 (as seen in the link below). Sweden only allows two non-Europeans per team to dress up for each game (unless they have dual citizenship and also hold a European passport), that could be part of the reason. Of these guys I'd probably rank the Abbott brothers and Lee Goren highest at the moment. Not sure about the other leagues listed below though as I don't follow them.
