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Old
04-12-2004, 05:44 PM
  #1
disles1
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Edm/NYI revisited

Hey guys I was just wondering now that the year is over do you like the trade of Torres and Izzy for Niinimaa and a 2nd pick? Torres had a very good year for you, correct?---would you still make the trade? What happened to Izzy? Niinimaa was very inconsistent during the year and many isles fans were not happy with him. I happen to like his game and thought it was a good and fair trade for both teams. Janne is really playing well now in the playoffs and I hope he stays on the island. Well good luck next year guys.

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04-12-2004, 06:17 PM
  #2
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This is still a hard one for me.

I love Torres and I think that although Isbister had another rough year, if he could pull it together he could still be a gem. He doesn't seem like damaged goods at this point, but his game is still quite inconsistent and when a guy is making $2M/yr that can really be magnified.

However, several times this year I thought that Niinimaa would be the one player that we could use, especially earlier in the season. Since Bergeron ended the season strong and we have some young dmen coming up next season, I'm not feeling as bad about not having Janne in the lineup. With the way things look right now - I'd say we won the deal.

Tunik is a pretty big guy who, from what I understand, is a pretty decent sniper. If he makes the NHL this could end up being a pretty even deal and if he makes it and Isbister tanks, then the Isles probably win long term.

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04-12-2004, 06:51 PM
  #3
YKOil
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I still...

... don't like this trade simply from the Isbister viewpoint.

Torres ROCKS - make no mistake about it - but the $2.5 million spent on Isbister (including the 500k from when we first got him) is just wasted money as far as I am concerned. That kind of cash could have been used to lock Smyth up for three years (if you think about it).

When I consider the fact that his presence in the line-up took time away from players like Chimera and Rita as well then I look at it as a complete loss.

The only way Lowe wins this trade is if:

- he trades Isbister for a 2nd rounder somewhere else, or
- Torres becomes an absolute monster of a player, or
- Isbister rounds into form

For this to have been an okay trade by Lowe it would have been:

Niinimaa
FOR
Torres, 48th pick & 58th pick

For this to have been a GREAT trade for Lowe it would have been:

Niinimaa & 53rd pick
FOR
Torres & 1st


Lowe has been extremely lucky that Torres had a great year as this trade could have been a complete disaster. Bustbister??? yeesh!


YKOil

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Old
04-12-2004, 06:55 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YKOil
... don't like this trade simply from the Isbister viewpoint.

Torres ROCKS - make no mistake about it - but the $2.5 million spent on Isbister (including the 500k from when we first got him) is just wasted money as far as I am concerned. That kind of cash could have been used to lock Smyth up for three years (if you think about it).

When I consider the fact that his presence in the line-up took time away from players like Chimera and Rita as well then I look at it as a complete loss.

The only way Lowe wins this trade is if:

- he trades Isbister for a 2nd rounder somewhere else, or
- Torres becomes an absolute monster of a player, or
- Isbister rounds into form

For this to have been an okay trade by Lowe it would have been:

Niinimaa
FOR
Torres, 48th pick & 58th pick

For this to have been a GREAT trade for Lowe it would have been:

Niinimaa & 53rd pick
FOR
Torres & 1st


Lowe has been extremely lucky that Torres had a great year as this trade could have been a complete disaster. Bustbister??? yeesh!


YKOil
Another hindsight is 20/20 argument.. will you be saying the same thing if Izzy pots 25 goals next year? Lowe knew he was acquiring a project in Isbister and I doubt he expected him to become Bertuzzi in a season (though he probably expected more than Brad has shown so far). I'm personally willing to give Izzy one more season with the Oilers before I jump off his ship.

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04-12-2004, 06:59 PM
  #5
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I like the deal, because Torres is younger and has just scored 20 goals in a season.

But here's the problem: the Oilers keep robbing Peter to pay Paul. Great organizations have someone to slip into the traded player's spot, they deal from strength. There wasn't an Oilers fan alive who didn't swallow hard when this trade came down, and in a way they still haven't replaced the guy. Its like the time they traded Sean Brown because it didn't look like anything was going to happen, and then dealt Poti late on trade deadline day leaving them short a backliner.

I know its growing pains, but Kevin Lowe needs to make this team BETTER by dealing from strength and addressing weakness.

Like 1st line center.

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04-12-2004, 07:10 PM
  #6
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I still like the trade...

Torres - young 20 goal scorer. You don't see too many of those. Plus when he wants to, he has shown that he can flat out hit. The tasmanian devil comparison sticks.

Isbister - we've seen glimpses of what he can do once he gets his game together. I'd give him another year or so before writing him off as a bust. He's been on the IR too much this season to gauge what he can contribute to the team. Plus, I don't think the Oilers have any power forwards on the team.

---------------------

Niinimaa - sure, I missed him patrolling the blueline...but look at who we got to replace him...Cross, Ulanov, Bergeron. All these guys have played well for us...and good enough to make me forget about Spaz.

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04-12-2004, 07:26 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I like the deal, because Torres is younger and has just scored 20 goals in a season.

But here's the problem: the Oilers keep robbing Peter to pay Paul. Great organizations have someone to slip into the traded player's spot, they deal from strength. There wasn't an Oilers fan alive who didn't swallow hard when this trade came down, and in a way they still haven't replaced the guy. Its like the time they traded Sean Brown because it didn't look like anything was going to happen, and then dealt Poti late on trade deadline day leaving them short a backliner.

I know its growing pains, but Kevin Lowe needs to make this team BETTER by dealing from strength and addressing weakness.

Like 1st line center.
I hear on that one LT – but Lowe has done pretty well in shoring up our defense this year. We now have Brew, Semi, MAB, Lynch, Woywitka and Greene as young depth and that’s impressive. Add Staios, Cross and Ulanov as cheap veteran presence and it’s even better. This summer we can improve our depth in goal through a relatively minor trade (for someone like Garon), by drafting Schwarz, Montoya or Dubnyk, and by signing JDD.

That leaves us with the need for a veteran sniping center – and we have both trading chips and the cap room to get that guy. Trading Niinimaa and probably letting Smith go this summer is all about altering our salary structure so that we can afford a near elite center next year. If we had kept Janni – then there is no Torres and we are looking at Smith, Niinimaa and Brew all being UFA and eligible for arb this summer – that’s ugly.

So I’m OK with the Niinimaa trade as a strategic deal that changed our contract structure – but I wish we had acquired Torres and Scatchard instead of Torres and Isbister. Then again – who would have thought that Moreau could be our MVP this year? So maybe there’s still hope for Isbister because the guy’s luck this past year was absolutely awful.

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04-12-2004, 07:47 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil

So I’m OK with the Niinimaa trade as a strategic deal that changed our contract structure – but I wish we had acquired Torres and Scatchard instead of Torres and Isbister.
I just don't understand this fascination with Scatchard.. he's a very good checking line centerman who had one great year goalscoring wise. Where would he fit in our lineup with Stoll and Reasoner already here? I think the winner of this trade will get cleared up a lot next year based on how Izzy plays..

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04-12-2004, 09:42 PM
  #9
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It was difficult to see Janne go. He was one of my favorite Oilers who left it all on the ice and loved playing here. But ... Lowe made this deal to address a key need for size and some skill upfront. In the shortterm, Lowe sacrificed a solid, well rounded defenseman who could play the PP.

Torres imo was the cornerstone in this deal. He was a high-level prospect whose value was low at the time. Most organizations do not give up so quickly on someone of Torres' potential to crash, bang, and score. I'm not sure the Oil could have got him one year later. Add the elusive work-in-progress Isbister who could provide immediate return of size and potential, the Oil essentially doubled-down to minimize the risk and hope that at least one of the two would provide the physical play and size this team had been lacking.

One year later... Torres emerged into a scoring threat and heavy hitter faster than most projected. He is a special player. Conversely, Isbister continues to be plagued by injuries and inconsistent play. Issy teases us with flashes of great play but did not earn his healthy paycheque. Oiler management is now living with this rollercoaster ride much like Milbury and Islanders org. before them. Izzy is so close but so far from being the player many imagine.

Janne by all accounts has been inconsistent in his play on the island. We missed a power play quarterback for half a year. He certainly would have helped this team. However this trade was made for its longterm effect. Torres has solidified his place in the Oil's future while Isbister, the eternal tease, either gets one more year to prove his worth or becomes a trade asset to help in this team's development.

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Old
04-12-2004, 09:59 PM
  #10
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Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I like the deal, because Torres is younger and has just scored 20 goals in a season.

But here's the problem: the Oilers keep robbing Peter to pay Paul. Great organizations have someone to slip into the traded player's spot, they deal from strength. There wasn't an Oilers fan alive who didn't swallow hard when this trade came down, and in a way they still haven't replaced the guy. Its like the time they traded Sean Brown because it didn't look like anything was going to happen, and then dealt Poti late on trade deadline day leaving them short a backliner.

I know its growing pains, but Kevin Lowe needs to make this team BETTER by dealing from strength and addressing weakness.

Like 1st line center.

Brown was FINALLY rounding into form that year and this comes from a guy that used to tear him apart over on OF. I mean the guy used to take tonnes of bad penalties but in '02 he was putting it together, ie being very phyiscal and chipping the puck off the glass and out of trouble.

And then Lowe trades him for Tom Gilbert, I mean Bobby Allen, and we are left down the stretch having to play Boots in the top six.

You're right, Lowe never deals from a strenght to address a weakness. He dealt Janne at a time when the D wasn't really all that solid yet it appears to be at the same time this year because Bergy finally appears to be coming around. But we picked up yet another winger and no centre.

And Torres did score 20 goals this year but by the end of the season he wasn't only not scoring, he was no longer getting himself into position to score. When a hitter's in a slump, I don't mind as long as he's hitting the ball hard because you know he'll break out of it. When a scorer isn't scoring, I don't mind as long as he's getting his chances. From the lack of chances in his last 40 games, my jury is still out on just what kind of player Raffi can be.

Isbister is expensive and injury prone junk. And yes he did potential impede the development of younger and cheaper guys like Rita and Chimmer.

Only reason why this trade isn't pi$$poor is because Janne was starting to get expensive.

Of course this could change if Torres can score 20 a year but we'll have to see about that one

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04-12-2004, 10:23 PM
  #11
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Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I like the deal, because Torres is younger and has just scored 20 goals in a season.

But here's the problem: the Oilers keep robbing Peter to pay Paul. Great organizations have someone to slip into the traded player's spot, they deal from strength. There wasn't an Oilers fan alive who didn't swallow hard when this trade came down, and in a way they still haven't replaced the guy. Its like the time they traded Sean Brown because it didn't look like anything was going to happen, and then dealt Poti late on trade deadline day leaving them short a backliner.

I know its growing pains, but Kevin Lowe needs to make this team BETTER by dealing from strength and addressing weakness.

Like 1st line center.

Brown was FINALLY rounding into form that year and this comes from a guy that used to tear him apart over on OF. I mean the guy used to take tonnes of bad penalties but in '02 he was putting it together, ie being very phyiscal and chipping the puck off the glass and out of trouble.

And then Lowe trades him for Tom Gilbert, I mean Bobby Allen, and we are left down the stretch having to play Boots in the top six.

You're right, Lowe never deals from a strenght to address a weakness. He dealt Janne at a time when the D wasn't really all that solid yet it appears to be at the same time this year because Bergy finally appears to be coming around. But we picked up yet another winger and no centre.

And Torres did score 20 goals this year but by the end of the season he wasn't only not scoring, he was no longer getting himself into position to score. When a hitter's in a slump, I don't mind as long as he's hitting the ball hard because you know he'll break out of it. When a scorer isn't scoring, I don't mind as long as he's getting his chances. From the lack of chances in his last 40 games, my jury is still out on just what kind of player Raffi can be.

Isbister is expensive and injury prone junk. And yes he did potential impede the development of younger and cheaper guys like Rita and Chimmer.

Only reason why this trade isn't pi$$poor is because Janne was starting to get expensive.

Of course this could change if Torres can score 20 a year but we'll have to see about that one

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04-12-2004, 10:38 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral
I just don't understand this fascination with Scatchard.. he's a very good checking line centerman who had one great year goalscoring wise. Where would he fit in our lineup with Stoll and Reasoner already here? I think the winner of this trade will get cleared up a lot next year based on how Izzy plays..
Scatch is a big, nasty 3rd line center who can play very limited 2nd line minutes if needed in a pinch. He can also put up a few points. The Oilers are basically a bunch of cream-puffs down the middle and Scatch would change that by giving us a big aggressive presence at center. We need that just about as much as scoring at that position.

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04-12-2004, 10:40 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
Brown was FINALLY rounding into form that year and this comes from a guy that used to tear him apart over on OF. I mean the guy used to take tonnes of bad penalties but in '02 he was putting it together, ie being very phyiscal and chipping the puck off the glass and out of trouble.

And then Lowe trades him for Tom Gilbert, I mean Bobby Allen, and we are left down the stretch having to play Boots in the top six.
Brown was - and always will be - waiver wire junk. What's the facination with this guy?

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04-12-2004, 11:08 PM
  #14
Cerebral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
Scatch is a big, nasty 3rd line center who can play very limited 2nd line minutes if needed in a pinch. He can also put up a few points. The Oilers are basically a bunch of cream-puffs down the middle and Scatch would change that by giving us a big aggressive presence at center. We need that just about as much as scoring at that position.
I agree and I am a fan of Scatchard.. however, I think that both Stoll and Reasoner can do an ample job on the third line. There would not likely be any place in this organization for Stoll if we were to acquire Scatchard. Stoll isn't big and he's not nasty but he does get the job done..

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04-12-2004, 11:15 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral
I agree and I am a fan of Scatchard.. however, I think that both Stoll and Reasoner can do an ample job on the third line. There would not likely be any place in this organization for Stoll if we were to acquire Scatchard. Stoll isn't big and he's not nasty but he does get the job done..
Mark Bell would be a waaaaaaay waaaaaaaaay better option than Scatchard ever will be. We should trade for him. Big nasty skilled center. It's like Scatchard, Nedved put together to make Mark Bell.

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04-12-2004, 11:49 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outKast
Mark Bell would be a waaaaaaay waaaaaaaaay better option than Scatchard ever will be. We should trade for him. Big nasty skilled center. It's like Scatchard, Nedved put together to make Mark Bell.
As long as he's not attacking linesman blindly he's ok in my books.

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04-12-2004, 11:59 PM
  #17
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Except Bell isn't as tough as Scatchard or skilled as Nedved. And yes, I've seen lots of Bell cause I watch Hawks games because I have alot of family that lives in (and actually isn't to far away from my home) Mannville and because Ruutu is a personal fav.

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04-13-2004, 12:09 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
Brown was FINALLY rounding into form that year and this comes from a guy that used to tear him apart over on OF. I mean the guy used to take tonnes of bad penalties but in '02 he was putting it together, ie being very phyiscal and chipping the puck off the glass and out of trouble.

And then Lowe trades him for Tom Gilbert, I mean Bobby Allen, and we are left down the stretch having to play Boots in the top six.

You're right, Lowe never deals from a strenght to address a weakness. He dealt Janne at a time when the D wasn't really all that solid yet it appears to be at the same time this year because Bergy finally appears to be coming around. But we picked up yet another winger and no centre.

And Torres did score 20 goals this year but by the end of the season he wasn't only not scoring, he was no longer getting himself into position to score. When a hitter's in a slump, I don't mind as long as he's hitting the ball hard because you know he'll break out of it. When a scorer isn't scoring, I don't mind as long as he's getting his chances. From the lack of chances in his last 40 games, my jury is still out on just what kind of player Raffi can be.

Isbister is expensive and injury prone junk. And yes he did potential impede the development of younger and cheaper guys like Rita and Chimmer.

Only reason why this trade isn't pi$$poor is because Janne was starting to get expensive.

Of course this could change if Torres can score 20 a year but we'll have to see about that one
Matts, you make some excellent points but we obviously disagree. Points we agree on - this team should not have traded Brown for a middling prospect. I didn't like the Brown trade then and still don't. Brownie wasn't the second coming of Bobby Orr but offered decent NHL depth and toughness.

We depart on our opinions of Lowe. Imo he has made many deals based on moving out salary to get this team to 2004. He has been forthright in saying as such and along the way it has cost us some expensive players. Dealing from this intrisic position of weakness (I assume survival of the franchise qualifies), he has done quite well in the trade department despite this reality. Beyond initial optics, we have done okay imo with netting Brewer, Reasoner and gang, Dvorak, and I will also add Torres and Isbister. We've even seen Lowe beginning to work from a position of strength this year with the Nedved trade. The system is beginning to develop depth and assets which may one day allow us to be on the side receiving one player for two or three. And if sanity wins out, we might be close to having a more level financial playing field to compete with the big market clubs.

We appear to have differing opinions on Torres and his season. For me, I saw a a twenty-two year old kid breakout with a consistent physical, aggressive ornery game (rather unique for this team) and who contributed twenty goals. One of only three Oilers to reach 20 goals. I ask the question, 'where would this team have been without this consistent effort and goals'?

You were obviously more upset than I about Raffi's last 40 games. I was estatic to see a tough, physical presence from someone other than Ethan Moreau and Jason Smith. Twenty goals on top of this sandpaper game is golden! However you may be right to be skeptical about Torres' future, after all, you knew Salo would tank this season. But to achieve this at 22 years old, I'm going to remain abit more optimistic we're seeing the emergence of a very good player.

Finally, I agree with your opinions on Isbister. He certainly did not earn his paycheque this year but at the time of the trade Izzy was much coveted for his elusive potential. Worth the gamble imo when added to Torres. Janne had 28 eight points this year on the Island. At his age and salary do you think that is enough?

Lowe has been quoted as saying 'expect the unexpected.' Right from his debut as GM at the 2000 NHL draft, Lowe has been unafraid to take risks on unproven (but generally well regarded) prospects. It is a matter of one's perspective whether Lowe is succeeding or failing.

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04-13-2004, 12:14 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outKast
Mark Bell would be a waaaaaaay waaaaaaaaay better option than Scatchard ever will be. We should trade for him. Big nasty skilled center. It's like Scatchard, Nedved put together to make Mark Bell.
I'm a big fan of Bell.. while I don't think he's as good as some posters on this board believe, he is still a very big and talented centerman. I actually made a few proposals during the Comrie saga trying to nab him and one of Chicago's prospect d-men for Lil Mikey. I just don't see Chicago trading him now though, especially not after his breakout season. He's one of those players that almost every team in the NHL could use and I see the Hawks holding on to him for a long time..

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04-13-2004, 12:54 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
You were obviously more upset than I about Raffi's last 40 games. I was estatic to see a tough, physical presence from someone other than Ethan Moreau and Jason Smith. Twenty goals on top of this sandpaper game is golden!
You're right. Even though Torres didn't score much during the later half of the season, he did bring out some of his crash and bang style of play. You could see that Torres knew that his lack of scoring would bring down the team so he makes up for it by hitting everything that moves. You don't see that in too many youngsters. Normally, when a rookie is in a slump, you see him try too hard to make something happen, and that results in mistakes...but as for Torres, he goes and helps the team out in some other way.

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04-13-2004, 01:00 AM
  #21
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This trade literally was the hardest on myself, ever. It was worse than the Comrie fiasco(I'm a Duck fan too). Niinimaa was by far my favorite player on the Oilers roster. I heard that Carter got traded, and I thought it was too bad, but once I heard Niinimaa was traded, I literally was in shock for like a 1/2 hour. Even with Torres' great season, I still hate this trade. One player I trade back to the Oil in a nanosecond would be Janne. I hope that one day, he goes back to Edmonton, or maybe as a close second goes to Anaheim

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04-13-2004, 01:14 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
This trade literally was the hardest on myself, ever. It was worse than the Comrie fiasco(I'm a Duck fan too). Niinimaa was by far my favorite player on the Oilers roster. I heard that Carter got traded, and I thought it was too bad, but once I heard Niinimaa was traded, I literally was in shock for like a 1/2 hour. Even with Torres' great season, I still hate this trade. One player I trade back to the Oil in a nanosecond would be Janne. I hope that one day, he goes back to Edmonton, or maybe as a close second goes to Anaheim
Hey ducks, appreciate your post and thoughts and I agree with your sentiments. Janne for me was a true Oiler - selfless, great strength of character and desire to win. I was really, really sad to see him go ... especially seeing his reaction to the trade. This guy loved playing in Edmonton and loved his teammates ... (not in the biblical sense).

However, beyond the emotion, I did feel it was a good move. The Oilers simply had to get bigger and stronger upfront. The playoff series against Dallas proved this fact to me. And Torres' potential was long coveted by Lowe and co.

But if there is ever one Oiler who I would like to see come back ... Janne would be at the top of this list.

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04-13-2004, 01:23 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
This trade literally was the hardest on myself, ever. It was worse than the Comrie fiasco(I'm a Duck fan too). Niinimaa was by far my favorite player on the Oilers roster. I heard that Carter got traded, and I thought it was too bad, but once I heard Niinimaa was traded, I literally was in shock for like a 1/2 hour. Even with Torres' great season, I still hate this trade. One player I trade back to the Oil in a nanosecond would be Janne. I hope that one day, he goes back to Edmonton, or maybe as a close second goes to Anaheim
I too loved Janne.. while I didn't shed any tears when Carter was dealt, it was a pretty sad day to see Spaz shipped out of town. However, I still feel it was a great move by Lowe. Niinimaa has not been able to play up to the level of play that we saw a few years back and I'm fairly certain his injuries are holding his level of play back quite a few notches. He wasn't the same player when he was dealt and would not have been able to log the 30ish minutes we were used to dragging out of him. I would love to see Niinimaa back one day but he was just too pricey and banged up for us to justify keeping him. I'll always remember his interview with Sportsnet after hearing of the trade news though.. he was a true Oiler!

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04-13-2004, 02:47 AM
  #24
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its all about perception... do we look at what we gained, or what we lost. I personally like the trade, but cant help but raise a few questions.

Sure we gained to quality players out of the deal, however, by aquiring 2 left wingers, it basically spelled the end of the line for Jani Rita (whether KLO will admit it or not), it also regressed the process of Jason Chimera, who IMO, is NHL quality. Are Torres and Isbister an upgrade from Chimera and Rita, probably, but I wouldnt put an excalmation point on that, simply because rough-n-rugged left wingers was not a need we needed to address.

In the process however, we gained a injury proned Isbister and a over-achieving Torres, and lost an injury proned 3 million dollar offensive defenseman who logs lots of minutes and can be heavily relied upon when looking for a PP goal. I look back at this year, and I think Id rather have #44 on the PP, then Raffi Torres or Brad Isbister, simply because we've already got ample size and grit on the left side (Moreau, Smyth, Chimera), while an offensive D-man was nowhere in sight (until MAB turned it up late in the season).

In conclusion, I did like the trade, and I still do, but one must wonder where we'd be without Torres and Isbister, or where we wouldnt be without #44.

-Moe Mouallem, Channel 6 News.

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04-13-2004, 09:30 AM
  #25
dawgbone
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Brown for Allen is my top pick for under-rated move made by Kevin Lowe.

Sure, Brown was starting to actually be a defenseman, but that was in 13 minutes per game in a very limited role, sheltered from players who had the slightest bit of skill. That is pretty much all he can do at the NHL level, and despite those strides he made 2 years ago, he hasn't done anything more to improve on that since then.

I'd like Guy to interview either Lynch or Wyowitka at the end of the season and do a word association and him mention the name Bobby Allen. He has been incredible this season, not just his play, but his leadership and presence around guys like Lynch and Wyowtika. I don't think either guy would have made the strides both on and off the ice that these 2 guys did without Allen.

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