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Edm/NYI revisited

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Old
04-13-2004, 02:42 PM
  #26
Mr Sakich
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janne is still one of my all-time favourite oilers but it was a great trade. No small market team can afford a guy with one very bad knee and a back problem that is getting worse. I have a lot of respect for Janne for playing through this terrible period.

A worse case scenario that was staring Lowe right in the face was Janne having knee surgery which would have caused him to miss the entire 2003-2004 season followed by arbitration. It was far too risky for Lowe not to trade janne and the return was pretty incredible given our 20/20 hindsight.

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Old
04-13-2004, 02:48 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outKast
Mark Bell would be a waaaaaaay waaaaaaaaay better option than Scatchard ever will be. We should trade for him. Big nasty skilled center. It's like Scatchard, Nedved put together to make Mark Bell.
As much as I'd love for Bellsey to become an Oiler (as I could get free tickets), the most likely Chicago centreman available in a trade is Tyler Arnason: 5'11" - 198lbs. He is still relatively young at 25 and had 55 pts in what was considered a bad year for him.

He has fallen out of favour with Sutter and while it's likely that one of them will be gone next year, it's not likely to be Sutter.

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Old
04-13-2004, 05:25 PM
  #28
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Until someone can quantify

what Allen has done to improve both kids off the ice, your opinion is nothing more than speculation.

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Old
04-13-2004, 05:38 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
what Allen has done to improve both kids off the ice, your opinion is nothing more than speculation.
I dunno, we can hypothesize can't we? Allen was the veteran captain of the RR this year and to all reports has played well in leading the team to the playoffs in their very first year of existence. Being one of the veteran blueliners on the team, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that Allen would be somewhat of a rolemodel playing with Woywitka and Lynch on the same team.

While I did like Sean Brown and liked the fact that he was willing to fight for the team, after several years of development, Brown was finally turning the corner to becoming a solid 5/6/7 defender. Not even a top 4 (IMO).

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Old
04-13-2004, 05:56 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
Until someone can quantify what Allen has done to improve both kids off the ice, your opinion is nothing more than speculation.
Influence a veteran has on young kids can't be quantified......

Do you actually think there is some number that you can place on that????

It is clear from Guy's interviews of the young guys in Toronto, that guys like Allen and Thompson have been integral in their development.

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Old
04-13-2004, 06:03 PM
  #31
Darth Milbury
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BTW, the story in the NY papers was that the Oilers were asking for Scatch and Isbister, and the Isles countered by offering Torres and Isbister. There was never any chance that the Oil would get Scatch AND Torres. And, in fact, Torres was not the man the Oil really wanted (despite some of their public statements to the contrary). Scatch was the sticking point, and the Isles were unwilling to part with him.

That said, Torres had 20 goals and 35 points as a 22-YO. How many 22-YO's in the league put up those kind of numbers last year? I really would not be shocked to see him flirt with much better numbers than that after he develops. Add that in with his buzzsaw style of play, and you've got yourself a pretty vaulable commodity.

From an Islander fan's perspective - I didn't like the deal last year and I like it even less now.

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Old
04-13-2004, 06:12 PM
  #32
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My problem...

...with the Brown trade was simply this:

1. It didn't need to be done, and
2. It depleted our ability to make trades

Given Brown's salary the trade didn't need to be done either from a cost viewpoint. Also, given Allen's inability to crack even our depleted NHL line-up there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't have been available for a 7th round pick or so.

Given the choice between Brown and a late, late draft pick it is a no-brainer - take Brown every time.

In terms of our ability to make trades the simple fact was that WITH Brown we ALWAYS had an extra chip to throw in to make a deal work - teams are always looking for young, cheap & physical d-men. Since Edmonton was also his first home the case could be made that he would flourish elsewhere. With Brown traded our stock of d-men available for trade was used up and every trade after that one would henceforth target players we actually needed (Niinimaa being the notable one).

In other words - imo at the time - Lowe made a trade he never had to make and to add insult to injury made a trade that was/could have been very bad for the team.

The fact that Allen has turned out to be a decent AHL on-ice leader and that Brown is now toiling with New Jersey and never became a poor-man's Scott Steven's is beside the point. Lowe traded a guy who could play and who could fight for one that was far, far down the depth chart of another team - bad trade then and bad trade now.


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Old
04-13-2004, 06:42 PM
  #33
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I remember the day they dealt Brown, MacT said something like Brown wanted to move up in terms of the depth chart and the organization didn't think he could do it.

And that's fine, except that just before the deadline they dealt Poti and left themselves short. Great day because they got York, but imo the GM shortened the deck for the coach.

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Old
04-13-2004, 06:45 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I remember the day they dealt Brown, MacT said something like Brown wanted to move up in terms of the depth chart and the organization didn't think he could do it.

And that's fine, except that just before the deadline they dealt Poti and left themselves short. Great day because they got York, but imo the GM shortened the deck for the coach.
I agree that the deals left us short-handed, but at the time of the Brown deal, KLo must not have known that he could get York for Poti.

And York, IMO, has been more than worth being short on the blueline for a couple months.

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Old
04-13-2004, 06:47 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I remember the day they dealt Brown, MacT said something like Brown wanted to move up in terms of the depth chart and the organization didn't think he could do it.

And that's fine, except that just before the deadline they dealt Poti and left themselves short. Great day because they got York, but imo the GM shortened the deck for the coach.

They were short and I still think they tried like heck to make another deal but couldn't get it done. I think they moved Brown but thought they had the hole filled but... oops. Just my gut at the time, no inside info there.

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Old
04-13-2004, 07:52 PM
  #36
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Brown has been on waivers twice since we traded him and has also been a UFA. If the Oilers had any interest in him (or if he had any talent) we've had ample opportunities to re-claim him. Where's the beef boys? - Brown is AHL-level talent and always has been.

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Old
04-13-2004, 08:42 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
Brown has been on waivers twice since we traded him and has also been a UFA. If the Oilers had any interest in him (or if he had any talent) we've had ample opportunities to re-claim him. Where's the beef boys? - Brown is AHL-level talent and always has been.

Yup.

Lowe can't get a break! He traded away a fringe asset for a decent prospect (at the time, Allen was considered to be one of the better young players in the Boston system).

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Old
04-13-2004, 09:14 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Yup.

Lowe can't get a break! He traded away a fringe asset for a decent prospect (at the time, Allen was considered to be one of the better young players in the Boston system).
The proof is in the pudding. Sean Brown has played in 389 regular NHL games and several playoff games. Bobby Allen is at 1.

This is one of Lowe's few gambles on youth and prospects which has not paid off. Bobby Allen was a mid-grade prospect when acquired. Allen may be a solid leader in Toronto but will never match Sean Brown's NHL numbers.

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Old
04-13-2004, 09:36 PM
  #39
Lowetide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Yup.

Lowe can't get a break! He traded away a fringe asset for a decent prospect (at the time, Allen was considered to be one of the better young players in the Boston system).
Again, its not the trade, its the timing. A reasonable person could argue that Lowe decided nothing was going to happen, so he had the depth to trade Sean Brown.

But he did it early on trade deadline day, and then a beauty deal was offered to him.

A more experienced GM might have made the Brown deal a little later, and I think that's a fair argument. As for Lowe not getting a break, well I think we Oiler fans are pretty damn patient to be honest with you.

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Old
04-13-2004, 11:12 PM
  #40
Asiaoil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
The proof is in the pudding. Sean Brown has played in 389 regular NHL games and several playoff games. Bobby Allen is at 1.

This is one of Lowe's few gambles on youth and prospects which has not paid off. Bobby Allen was a mid-grade prospect when acquired. Allen may be a solid leader in Toronto but will never match Sean Brown's NHL numbers.
Scott Ferguson has played 288 regular season games and 8 playoff games - so friggin what - he's as useless as Brown was in slightly different way.

Dumping Brown involved no risk what so ever because he has no talent. It completely baffles me that people even think about a trade like this. What's next - a debate on the implications of the big Butenschon deal

Must be a slow day in e-town.

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Old
04-13-2004, 11:29 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
Scott Ferguson has played 288 regular season games and 8 playoff games - so friggin what - he's as useless as Brown was in slightly different way.

Dumping Brown involved no risk what so ever because he has no talent. It completely baffles me that people even think about a trade like this. What's next - a debate on the implications of the big Butenschon deal

Must be a slow day in e-town.
I liked Sven




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Old
04-14-2004, 12:11 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YKOil
...
Given Brown's salary the trade didn't need to be done either from a cost viewpoint.
...
I don't know about that. And I'm just going by my faulty memory ... but I think that Brown was on the books for quite a bit of coin. $1 M or so. With a year to go on his contract. Which is why the B's let him walk as a UFA rather than qualify him as a RFA.

He was drafted pretty early and therefore got on the NHL salary escalator half way up. So I remember it as a salary dump ... but I wouldn't swear on that. Does anyone know where you can find the salaries of guys from past years?

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Old
04-14-2004, 12:17 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
Scott Ferguson has played 288 regular season games and 8 playoff games - so friggin what - he's as useless as Brown was in slightly different way.

Dumping Brown involved no risk what so ever because he has no talent. It completely baffles me that people even think about a trade like this. What's next - a debate on the implications of the big Butenschon deal

Must be a slow day in e-town.
Boy, I am in real trouble here. I actually liked Ferguson's contribution as a depth role guy on this team. Clearly a guy who rose above his limited talent through heart and desire. Yeoman work in stretching out a six year career as a free-agent signing. His time has likely come and gone. But I've got no beef for someone who worked their butt off just to make the NHL.

As to Brown, he was once viewed with enough potential to be a first-round pick. Obviously Brown hasn't lived up to this status and he will never be mistaken for Bobby Orr but 400 games in the NHL is an okay legacy.

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Old
04-14-2004, 09:01 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
what Allen has done to improve both kids off the ice, your opinion is nothing more than speculation.
Gee, you think?

Everything that comes from fans is speculation.

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Old
04-14-2004, 11:27 AM
  #45
Matts
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Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Gee, you think?

Everything that comes from fans is speculation.
unless it's starts or anecdotal

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Old
04-14-2004, 02:39 PM
  #46
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If you read some of the interviews that Guy has done this season, you can see some quotes from players, coaches, and management that come across as VERY happy with Allen's contributions to the Roadrunners and the development of the other players. Not being privy to the inner workings of the club, that's good enough for me.

I actually regret that trade, though, for Brown, but I also believe that Brown forced Lowe's hand on that as well. Brown was having a career year (and I recall him being easily one of the top 2 defencemen for the Oilers for at least the first third of the season), and started to think he deserved more ice time, moving up the ladder to the 2nd pairing, etc. I think that's around the time his play started to slide a bit, he started taking some dumber penalties again, some dumber decisions on the ice. And I agree that Lowe probably had discounted the possibility of getting York by that time, but then couldn't refuse the chance when it came up even though he'd be a little short on the blue line.

I was a little surprised that Brown not only didn't improve somewhere else, but kind of worked himself off the Bruins (was even tried at forward for a while), so in hindsight it wasn't like we gave up someone who excelled somewhere else. Yet he was a very good fighter, to take on guys who wouldn't find Laraque, so in that way he's missed.

As for the Niinimaa deal, I keep forgetting about the draft pick we sent to the Islanders, but I have to say, all things considered (Janne's injury problems and contract) that the Oilers have won this trade so far, depending on how the Isles' draft pick turns out. In a purely hockey deal, I'd still give the edge to the Oilers with Torres' emergence this year being a big surprise. I don't think even Lowe & MacT thought he would pay off so quickly, and that Isbister would be the 'bridge' guy until Raffi took his spot. I guess that happened around...what, game 8?

But when you add in the contract status of Janne ($3M, soon-to-be UFA) and his back/knee problems...wow. Great deal for the Oilers. Raffi's going to be our property for many years to come. Izzy? Hard to say. I'd agree with some others that we could give him a good chunk of next season to stay healthy and see what he really has before giving up on him, but I wouldn't necessarily wait until the trade deadline if he's underperforming again. Too bad he had the injury problems this year or we might have a better idea of what kind of player he is by now.

Bart

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