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Combined numbers of Brodeur's backups since 1994

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Old
11-08-2009, 06:45 PM
  #1
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Combined numbers of Brodeur's backups since 1994

For some reason I thought this would be interesting to figure out. Since 93-94 Brodeur's backups have combined for a save percentage of .908 and a GAA of 2.51. In the same time span Brodeur has amassed a save percentage of .914 and a GAA of 2.21.

Brodeur's backups totaled 13,888 minutes played since 93-94, a sample representative of about three and a half seasons worth of games, so there's a good deal of data to work with here.

I'm not sure how to interpret these stats. I think it's fair to say that a lot of Brodeur's success comes from the Devils system. Without a couple horrific years by Terreri the backup totals look even better.

Now this isn't an apples to apples comparison. What makes a goalie starter material is his ability to remain consistent over a long stretch of games, so backups playing 10 or so games a season aren't held to that standard and thus their stats might be inflated (although, conversely, you could argue that some goaltenders benefit from starting strings of games and perform poorly in intermittent backup roles). However, all you have to do is look to last season when Clemmensen and Weekes logged 3,151 minutes and had a combined GAA of 2.40 and a .917 save percentage (identical to the .917/2.42 mark Brodeur posted in 31 games). Clemmensen is currently languishing in Florida with a .838 save percentage and a 5.13GAA in four starts - it's fairly obvious he's a bad goalie. I think this is particularly damning evidence to the crowd who claim Brodeur makes the Devils rather than the other way around.

I expect to be flamed, but I would be interested in hearing arguments about why last season, as well as the relative closeness in the numbers of Brodeur's backups to himself, isn't evidence that the Devils can survive without Brodeur.

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11-08-2009, 06:50 PM
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We're the Devils. We will find a way to win no matter what.

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11-08-2009, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrison Ford View Post
We're the Devils. We will find a way to win no matter what.
I agree.

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11-08-2009, 06:57 PM
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I think the "core" of this team is the players it is because those said players actually give a **** about each other. A core of talent is fine and good but when there is character guys and hard workers in that group is when you really see if pay off. When a team not only plays to win but plays for each other the results are mostly good. I think the team has been like this for a long while through multiple "cores"

No matter who is in net the guys play for each other and I think it's been that way sense Lou took over. It won't ever change.

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11-08-2009, 07:08 PM
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If Clemmer carried us through the first round of the playoffs, I'd accept the idea that we can survive without Brodeur.

I know Marty couldn't get us past the first round either, but that was probably his best series since the Rags in 06. Of course, if you're one of the morons who gauged his overall performance on how he played in the third period of game seven, you probably feel differently. I believe if Clemmer or Weekes were playing, we would have been lucky to make it to game 5.

Last season's disappointing outcome proved one thing as far as I'm concerned. When Marty isn't worn out from carrying this team on his back all season, he can elevate his game in the playoffs. That's why it's important to make sure Danis starts at least 15 games this year. Hopefully more if Marty is Canada's #1 in the Olympics.

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11-08-2009, 07:12 PM
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Marty gives the Devils a chance to win every night he plays, not vice
versa. The man is never rattled easy, and when he takes a **** on the ice he often follows it up next game with a shutout.

He makes the Devils. I don't care what the numbers and stats say. No Marty, no 95, 00, or 03 cups.

I do appreciate the stat work though. It's just that I've been following hockey and have been a diehard since 1994, and I can't help but to feel this way. The guy made multiple ASG appearances, Vezinas, Olympic gold etc... We had one of the best D's in the league. Now, we
have almost no superstar Dmen and he still gives us a chance to win. That alone proves it to me, or else players like Mottau and Salvador would be raking in serious cash.

People think that Nieds, Stevens, Raffi and Dano made Marty look good. They made him look even better by leaving.

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11-08-2009, 07:24 PM
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You do have to factor in that when the back up plays it is usually against the islanders or toronto. Where as Brodeur is putting up similiar if not better numbers playing against the likes of Detroit, Philly, San Jose Anaheim and the Rags. Big difference between the two. If you reversed the roles our backups would be closer to a 3 gaa and brodeur a 1.

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11-08-2009, 07:25 PM
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What about wins/losses and strength of schedule for those games?

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11-08-2009, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borrachon View Post
What about wins/losses and strength of schedule for those games?
Strength of schedule is a definite factor but it's impossible to calculate accurately. I'll do win/loss later but I expect that to be in the same range as GAA/%.

While strength of schedule and consistency provide arguments against the backup stats I think the Clemmensen/Weekes performance last year provides very solid support it.

I am not claiming that Brodeur isn't better than his backups - he obviously is. Just that he's not completely integral to the Devils success and that they can survive after he leaves.

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11-08-2009, 07:38 PM
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Quality of opponent.

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11-08-2009, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowbell232 View Post
Quality of opponent.
Does that explain the success of Clemmensen and Weekes last season?

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11-08-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borrachon View Post
What about wins/losses and strength of schedule for those games?
What do you mean, dude? Are you saying that Richard Shulmistra's 1.94 GAA and .993 S% in 97-98 is irrelevant? Nonsense!

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11-08-2009, 07:51 PM
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Don't care about the stats, Brodeur carried the team to the playoffs each year after Stevens retired. The team stepped it up last year with the offense and I think Clemmenson stepped it up because he wanted a goal tending job and a contract. As soon as he got that he's pretty much sunk.Also we can't really compare if the stats are close to Marty's because playing a lot less games is a lot easier and we can't take last year's stats because Marty came off a huge injury.

There's really a ton of variables, and I think that these stats should be compared to other backup goalies who see their #1 starter play 70+ games per year. We can't look at a guy like Roy because he's never even played 65 games in a year either. So IMO it's too hard to make decisions that way.

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11-08-2009, 08:11 PM
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I think it works both ways. The Devils' defensive system makes Brodeur better, and Brodeur is the reason why the Devils first implemented the system they play.

I as well think we are not screwed after Brodeur leaves, because the system will continue to work.

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11-08-2009, 08:36 PM
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This got me thinking, so I went and did some number crunching of my own. I decided to use the Flyers because, like the Devils, they've been competitive for the last decade or so. Everyone knows that since Hextall left, the Flyers have had a revolving door of goalies. That's been their biggest weaknes....right?

Well, since 97-98, their starting goalies have had a 2.38 GAA and .911 S%. Brodeur has had a 2.20 GAA and a .913 S% in the same span. So what do these numbers mean?! Yep, you guessed it...jack ****ing ****. Obviously, the statistics show that Philly and NJ have been pretty much even in the goaltending department in recent years, but I think we can all agree that is not true at all.

As far as backups go, just remember this. Lemaire didn't play Danis for the first 10 games even though we had a back-to-back. Why did he do this?

http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/f...for_danis_yet/

Quote:
Devils coach Jacques Lemaire said that the timing is not right to give backup goaltender Yann Danis his first start of the season yet because the team has not been playing well.

“It wouldn’t be fair for him if our game is not really good,” Lemaire said. “When our game will be good, then he’ll come in and get some help.”
Coaches pick and choose when they want to play their backup. The starter gets thrown out there no matter what.

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11-08-2009, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
Does that explain the success of Clemmensen and Weekes last season?
No. It explains why the general pool of backups has such good numbers.

More over, did Clemmensen or Weekes "steal" many games for us the way Marty does? Those 1-goal games we've been so good at winning? No, we scored like crazy for Clemmensen last year.

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11-08-2009, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
Does that explain the success of Clemmensen and Weekes last season?
Weekes sucked last year and Clemmensen was an an extended hot streak. Crappy goalies go on extended hot streaks - look at how well Ty Conklin played for the Penguins when MA Fleury went down a few years ago. Never did anything noteworthy before or afterwards.

What makes Brodeur great is that you can count on him to play at that level all the time. He isn't hot and cold like normal goalies.

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11-08-2009, 09:04 PM
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Its the argument that just never gets old, does it?

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Old
11-08-2009, 09:33 PM
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Also in the past 10 years the leader in Save % only won the Vezina twice. The best goalie in the league is always viewed in different types of statistics as in GP, Wins, etc. These things you can't really compare to backup goalies.

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11-08-2009, 10:18 PM
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Wait, am I on the main board? lol

Goalies come and goalies go. Marty has been a constant in this league for a long, long time. He has given our team a chance to win every single game he starts since he burst into the league. His consistency is UNMATCHED. I save the pissing and moaning about save% GAA etc for the clowns on the main board who's only goal in life is to attempt to put down our living legend in net. At the end of the day, the guy wins, and he does so at a high rate. It's actually downright scary to think of how many shots his sick rebound control has prevented over the years. Let's say instead of kicking all those rebounds out to his defensemen/into the corners where his guy can get to it first he instead has very little control and often times spits them out right into the slot so the opposing team can generate more scoring chances...Hundreds and hundreds of shots. I don't think I'm being unrealistic here. He's also one of the best in history at bouncing back after a stinker. Guy has a very short memory.

How many goalies have 7-40 win seasons?
How many have 12 straight 30 win seasons?
How many have 11 straight 35 win seasons?

Besides Brodeur, the answer rhymes with "hero."

Garbage often times get hot and puts up sick numbers throughout a stretch of months and even a whole season. But, it slowly fades off back into mediocrity with time and, when the dust settles (and the fools swinging from that 'tenders sack look foolish) there's one thing left standing. It's Martin Brodeur. The model of consistency between the pipes.


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Old
11-08-2009, 10:30 PM
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but Brodeur is not the only goalie to start his career with 4 straight 30 win seasons

how can we ever say the guy is good?

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11-08-2009, 10:37 PM
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I think that the number one reason for those stats would be, as most others have pointed out, what teams and circumstances the backups play against. As for last season's anomaly, I would point to the fact that our whole team top to bottom played lights out in Marty's absence, making it very easy for the guy in the pipes behind them. I would also like to point out game 5 in the playoffs. Marty flat out won that game for us. I don't wish to make an argument about the overall quality of Marty's playoff performance, but game 5 was one of the best goaltending battles I recall, and Marty won it. Regardless of what your system is, regardless of your stats and the stats of other goalies, only special goalies win games like that.

I do however agree that this team can be successful without Marty, and I think last season proved that this roster can be successful without relying on an HoF material goalie.

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Old
11-08-2009, 10:37 PM
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I already did a huge statistical analysis of this in one of the 03904464 "Brodeur sucks" threads on the main boards, and concluded that, excluding last year, Brodeur's backups have been significantly worse. Last year's stats screw everything up because, quite simply, Brodeur hasn't missed too many games over his career, so the half season or whatever it was that he missed last year allowed for a large input of backup stats to be from that team, which was unusually hot. The stats make much more sense of a long period of time as opposed to simply one stretch which coincidentally was one of the best in the team's history.

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11-08-2009, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggy Spandex View Post
People think that Nieds, Stevens, Raffi and Dano made Marty look good. They made him look even better by leaving.
I love this quote.

I think the original poster put his finger on it when he said that this "isn't an apples to apples comparison." Looking at last season as a sample, it may be tempting to say that on the surface Brodeur statistically = Clemmensen + Weekes. But there are quite frankly so many underlying variables (quantitative and qualitative) which factor in, not the least of which is the on-ice change of attitude by teammates and opponents alike when they know that they are dealing with Brodeur in net.

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11-09-2009, 12:14 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
For some reason I thought this would be interesting to figure out. Since 93-94 Brodeur's backups have combined for a save percentage of .908 and a GAA of 2.51. In the same time span Brodeur has amassed a save percentage of .914 and a GAA of 2.21.

Brodeur's backups totaled 13,888 minutes played since 93-94, a sample representative of about three and a half seasons worth of games, so there's a good deal of data to work with here.

I'm not sure how to interpret these stats. I think it's fair to say that a lot of Brodeur's success comes from the Devils system. Without a couple horrific years by Terreri the backup totals look even better.

Now this isn't an apples to apples comparison. What makes a goalie starter material is his ability to remain consistent over a long stretch of games, so backups playing 10 or so games a season aren't held to that standard and thus their stats might be inflated (although, conversely, you could argue that some goaltenders benefit from starting strings of games and perform poorly in intermittent backup roles). However, all you have to do is look to last season when Clemmensen and Weekes logged 3,151 minutes and had a combined GAA of 2.40 and a .917 save percentage (identical to the .917/2.42 mark Brodeur posted in 31 games). Clemmensen is currently languishing in Florida with a .838 save percentage and a 5.13GAA in four starts - it's fairly obvious he's a bad goalie. I think this is particularly damning evidence to the crowd who claim Brodeur makes the Devils rather than the other way around.

I expect to be flamed, but I would be interested in hearing arguments about why last season, as well as the relative closeness in the numbers of Brodeur's backups to himself, isn't evidence that the Devils can survive without Brodeur.
you might find this website interesting:
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/

go back to his entries from last year when clemmer took over

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