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Dissapointed in Duchene?

View Poll Results: Are you happy with Matt Duchene's progress?
No, he's a bust 7 6.36%
Yes, he's progressing great 19 17.27%
Meh, let the kid learn at his own pace...it takes time 84 76.36%
Voters: 110. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-09-2009, 08:05 PM
  #26
Adama0905
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I don't really know what to do with the guy. While I think it's very premature to be saying that he is a bust, he's not doing as well as I would like. I see the skills, but so far there is no finish whatsoever.

The skills however make me believe that this will just take time. He'll be a ppg player the minute he figures out how to simplify his game.

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11-09-2009, 08:48 PM
  #27
NOTENOUGHBREWER
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I get what some guys are saying here. Duchene is doing ok for an 18 year old. He had some jump in his game the first 10 or so and was dangerous everytime he was on the ice. Now he's hitting the wall (like I said he would) and needs to work hard to continue through the grind of an 82 game schedule.

However if we're looking at Duchene as a second line centre and forgetting his age, he's been poor. How many teams in the league have a second line centre who is not outperforming Duchene? Probably few.

He's impressed for an 18 year old, disappointed for a second line centre.

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Old
11-09-2009, 08:54 PM
  #28
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Great two way player who'd probably have trouble learning how to score at an NHL level. That's what I remember reading about him prior to the draft.

The kid is young and will learn. A couple positives to think about:
- He isn't the star on the team and won't have the pressure of having the team on his shoulders (unlike Tavares)
- Colorado is not a pressure cooker, so I don't think the pressure of the media/market will be a negative (unlike say, Montreal/Toronto)
- Would've been nice to have him score a ton, but a bit of adversity isn't bad at an early age. Good for him, he made the team... now he's got a lot more work to do.
- A lot of first round Centers in previous years weren't consistent with scoring in their first year. Mike Richards, Steven Stamkos... just to name a few.

Overall, I'm not worried.

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Old
11-09-2009, 09:41 PM
  #29
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Am I disappointed? Of course I am. Like most of you I was hoping he would have a great start and be on pace for a 70 pt season. I was hoping for it but was I expecting it? No.

I am not surprised he is starting like Stamkos did last year. The only things I was expecting from Duchene this year were:

1. To have a sound 2-way game. His defensive game is pretty good considering he plays with Svatos. Yes he is -7 but I think this is a bit misleading. He has played better than that. I'm not worried.

2. Improve his offensive game as the season progresses. He is currently on pace for 32 pts. A little disappointing like I said before but if he improves as I expect him to, he should easily end up with 40-45 pts. Not bad for a first year. This year we were not supposed to do anything good so it is much better for him to go through this right now instead of next year when we expect to be better. So it is better for him and the Avs that he remains here vice the OHL.

I am also not surprised that O'Reilly is doing better that Matt. His game is completely different than Matt's. His game is much simpler. It is all about hard work and positioning. Matt's game is all about skills and speed. Much harder to transition with the big boys. He is trying to do too much. He had success in the first 10 games but now, they have seen him play and they know that he will try to stickhandle his way around players. So what do they do? They stand him up and they don't worry about the pass. They also very often box him between 2 players along the boards so he has no place to go and therefore loses the puck. When he gets stronger and learns to simplify his game and use his linemates better, he will become the player we all know he can become.

I am not worried. He will keep improving throughout the season and get better. Next year he will be the second line center that everybody hopes for and this will help Stastny as well.

I said before the draft that I would take Duchene before Tavares 10 times out of 10 and I would still do it. I have no doubt that he will be the better overall player in the future. Tavares might end up with more points but Duchene will be much more important to his team. Be patient.

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Old
11-09-2009, 10:02 PM
  #30
ABasin
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
Well at least you stuck to your guns, and didn't vote for any of the options. I'm just talking about the people who keep *****ing about Duchene being a bust. They seem to flip-flop when it comes time to vote on Duchene.
Well, there are fair-weather fans who flip-flop in every sport in every city. It's fairly common.

But, back to Duchene for a moment - I want to be clear that I think he has significant talent, and I believe fully that he's going to be a really good offensive player one day.

That said, the day isn't today. Anyone can talk about how he's on a pace for a 30 point season as an 18 year old, or that he's 50th in the NHL or whatever. Bottom line is that he's getting 2nd line minutes and scoring at a pace alongside 4th line players on his own team. That isn't good no matter how you slice it.

I'm hoping that he just needs more time, and that he figures it out at some point this season.

-AB

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11-09-2009, 10:08 PM
  #31
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Pretty much at the end of the day it comes down to this: yes, it's disappointing that our second line center only has seven points and is a minus seven.

But the fact is he's an eighteen year old, and we have no other choice. No one else can fill his spot without us throwing Duchene in to a spot he will be even worse at. And whoever keeps saying "just because I'm eighteen doesn't mean everyone is willing to let me slide in my job," shut up. Try being a professional hockey player for a day, and see what happens.

Duchene will get better, so for the time being, quit being little spoiled brats, realize that we have no choice but to keep him in the role that he is in right now, and play the waiting game. You won't have to do it for that long.

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Old
11-09-2009, 10:45 PM
  #32
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the only thing that disappoints me about duchene is that his chances aren't going in. he's averaging 2 shots a game and it seems like at least half of those shots are scoring chances. these chances are going to start going in, there's no doubt about it. the avs are gonna have one of the better 1-2 center duos in the league sooner rather than later.

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Old
11-09-2009, 11:03 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Well, there are fair-weather fans who flip-flop in every sport in every city. It's fairly common.

But, back to Duchene for a moment - I want to be clear that I think he has significant talent, and I believe fully that he's going to be a really good offensive player one day.

That said, the day isn't today. Anyone can talk about how he's on a pace for a 30 point season as an 18 year old, or that he's 50th in the NHL or whatever. Bottom line is that he's getting 2nd line minutes and scoring at a pace alongside 4th line players on his own team. That isn't good no matter how you slice it.

I'm hoping that he just needs more time, and that he figures it out at some point this season.

-AB
I agree full heartedly with you. If you play Duchene as a 2nd line center he needs to play like one. His scoring is not up to par with what a 2nd line center needs to bring for a team to be successful.

Duchene is highly talented but is still figuring **** out. I could see a large 2nd half of the season for Duchene much like Stamkos. I remember last year when people were all over Stamkos calling him a bust. And look at him now tearing it up as a 19 year old.

The fact is right now I think it would be beneficial for Duchene to drop to the 3rd line and move O'Reilly up to the 2nd line. O'Reilly has shown that he has figured it out faster than Duchene.

Maybe we need to take Duchene back a step, give him less responsibility. I think we might have rushed him in the sense, the Avs thought he'd come in and dominate. Maybe we need to put him in against 3rd pairing dmen like we did with O'Reilly.

I still fully believe that Duchene is the real deal, but its time to take it back a step, get him some confidence. Its hard to get that when you're constantly worrying about top dmen and unreliable linemates. Put him on the 3rd line with Jones and Stewart and let Duchene do his thing.

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Old
11-09-2009, 11:06 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
He's impressed for an 18 year old, disappointed for a second line centre.
He's not going to magically not be 18 just because he's a second line center. Those expecting him to produce like a second line center ideally should right off the bat have unreasonable expectations, bottom line. Yes he's got to grow into his role. Who here expected that not to be the case?

We should keep in mind the expectations and intentions of this team pre-season. The expectations may have been inflated by the great start but the intentions are still the same. The Avs are rebuilding with youth. Was there any time when growing pains for the team or the youngest players would not be part of that equation? The "Duchene is an offensive/2nd line center failure" crowd clearly have lost grasp on that.

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Old
11-09-2009, 11:44 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
I say put him at LW on Stastny's line for like a game, max 2 games, and let O'Reilly center the 2nd line. Stastny has the ability to get him going and out of his funk. I think once Duchene has one of those "big nights" where he gets 1 goal 2 assists, or 2 goals 1 assist, he'll be well on his way and have a new confidence about him.
O'Reilly's line has been doing well by itself, I wouldn't mess with the chemistry there just to test Duchene on the wing.

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Old
11-10-2009, 12:01 AM
  #36
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It's funny, cuz everyone was saying that the Avs would've fallen back to earth by now because we were icing two 18 year olds up the middle. We haven't fallen back to earth, but we're *****ing about one of our young centers? This is exactly what we expected, or should have expected: growing pains! We're a young team and we're not supposed to be where we are.

Sometimes I wonder if the Avs were 4th in the Division and 12th in the west like everyone expected if we'd be so upset with Duchene. Reality: he's performing as he was expected to on an overachieving team. But it looks like he's underachieving on a good team.

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Old
11-10-2009, 12:28 AM
  #37
NOTENOUGHBREWER
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Originally Posted by AstralRonin View Post
He's not going to magically not be 18 just because he's a second line center. Those expecting him to produce like a second line center ideally should right off the bat have unreasonable expectations, bottom line. Yes he's got to grow into his role. Who here expected that not to be the case?

We should keep in mind the expectations and intentions of this team pre-season. The expectations may have been inflated by the great start but the intentions are still the same. The Avs are rebuilding with youth. Was there any time when growing pains for the team or the youngest players would not be part of that equation? The "Duchene is an offensive/2nd line center failure" crowd clearly have lost grasp on that.
I think it's fine to evaluate him on both grounds.

Has Matt Duchene been a good second line centre? No.
Has Matt Duchene been decent for an 18 year old? Yes.

I am one of those who would have preferred Duchene stay in junior unless he was clearly ready to contribute in a top 6 role and play tonnes of minutes behind Stastny. Right now it doesnt look like he can but that doesnt mean it was a mistake to keep him on the big club. He's getting chances, he's been getting big minutes (until recently) and he'll slowly learn to adapt to the NHL game. The team is winning right now which must be great for his confidence. Hopefully he'll figure it out before the season is done.

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11-10-2009, 01:18 AM
  #38
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The options suck. Way to make a non-bias poll.

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11-10-2009, 01:30 AM
  #39
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This is ridiculous. Oh no, the 18 year old isn't lighting it up every night!!!

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11-10-2009, 02:42 AM
  #40
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Expecting him to be a good second line center is waaaaay too much.

He'll get more comfortable as the season goes along though.

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11-10-2009, 04:35 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
That said, the day isn't today. Anyone can talk about how he's on a pace for a 30 point season as an 18 year old, or that he's 50th in the NHL or whatever. Bottom line is that he's getting 2nd line minutes and scoring at a pace alongside 4th line players on his own team. That isn't good no matter how you slice it.

I'm hoping that he just needs more time, and that he figures it out at some point this season.

-AB
Second-line, third-line, what's the difference? 30 or 40 seconds of ice time per game? It's not like the Avs have any bona fide Top 6 wingers besides Wolski and Hejduk, and Stastny gets those two.

Go ahead and call O'Reilly the second-line center and Duchene the third-line center, if it will help you evaluate their performance more objectively and stave off any lingering disappointment people may have with Duchene due to point production expectations.

Stats help here--shifts per game: Duchene 23.5, O'Reilly 23.4. So, really, what's the difference besides their special teams roles?

And, last time I checked Duchene had a few more points than either Hendricks or Koci, so to say he's scoring at a fourth-line pace is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

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11-10-2009, 07:21 AM
  #42
ABasin
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Originally Posted by hockeyguy2007 View Post
Second-line, third-line, what's the difference? 30 or 40 seconds of ice time per game? It's not like the Avs have any bona fide Top 6 wingers besides Wolski and Hejduk, and Stastny gets those two.

Go ahead and call O'Reilly the second-line center and Duchene the third-line center, if it will help you evaluate their performance more objectively
But O'Reilly isn't the 2nd line center. Duchene is, and he gets way more power play time and at ES - 3 1/2 minutes per game more than O'Reilly. 2nd line center is a scoring position, and that guy gets more chances to score than the 3rd line center, ergo more minutes at ES and on the PP. Which Duchene clearly has.

Look at the stats of the Chicago Blackhawks. Madden and Toews have about the same overall IT per game, both playing center. You're telling me that there is no 1st/2nd/3rd line distinction between the two?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyguy2007 View Post
Stats help here--shifts per game: Duchene 23.5, O'Reilly 23.4. So, really, what's the difference besides their special teams roles?
These special teams roles have a very distinct affect on one's scoring potential. I pointed this out above. Hell, Duchene is given more PP time than Wolski, and only a few seconds less per game than Stastny.

He's the 2nd line center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyguy2007 View Post
And, last time I checked Duchene had a few more points than either Hendricks or Koci, so to say he's scoring at a fourth-line pace is a bit of an exaggeration, no?
Not at all. 10 forwards on the Avs are scoring at or above Duchene's pace. Since only 12 forwards can play in a game, at least one or two of those have to be 4th liners, no?

In any case, simply compare him to the 3rd line players then - players he's getting way more IT than, particularly with the man advantage. And he's not matching their offensive production. Not coming close, in some cases.

-AB


Last edited by ABasin: 11-10-2009 at 07:27 AM.
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Old
11-10-2009, 07:30 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
I think it's fine to evaluate him on both grounds.

Has Matt Duchene been a good second line centre? No.
Has Matt Duchene been decent for an 18 year old? Yes.

I am one of those who would have preferred Duchene stay in junior unless he was clearly ready to contribute in a top 6 role and play tonnes of minutes behind Stastny. Right now it doesnt look like he can but that doesnt mean it was a mistake to keep him on the big club.
Very good post. This is largely my position as well.

Yes, I'm saying that Duchene hasn't been a very good 2nd line center, but what choice do the Avs have at this point? Sure, they could bring a guy in from Sweden and watch him play for two weeks until he gets hurt again, but then what?

If this is simply a somewhat painful part of the rebuild, so be it.

-AB

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Old
11-10-2009, 08:41 AM
  #44
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The options suck. Way to make a non-bias poll.
Go ahead and make a new one. Sorry it's not up to your standards fine sir.

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11-10-2009, 08:44 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
I think it's fine to evaluate him on both grounds.

Has Matt Duchene been a good second line centre? No.
Has Matt Duchene been decent for an 18 year old? Yes.
The problem with evaluating him as a good second line center and separating that from the 18 year old rookie part is ultimately it amounts to comparisons to older veteran, seasoned players. You can't make a reasoned analysis without accounting for the fact that he's an 18 year old rookie. The bottom line is it's rare for a player to enter the big leagues that young and especially to be thrust into a key role like top 6 forward. To have a player that young who can come in and play the way you'd expect of a veteran player... you probably wouldn't need both hands to count all the examples.

O'Reilly may be one such example, and that should be celebrated as the exceptionally rare thing it is rather than using it to argue that Duchene is not meeting expectations.

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11-10-2009, 10:09 AM
  #46
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Again I've said before. I show up to a job that has certain demands for me, if I underperform for that job title I can't use the excuse "sorry I'm 18". What they'll do is they'll find easier work for me to do until I'm ready to meet that job requirement.

Am I dissapointed with his production as an 18 year old? No, I didn't expect too much from him. He's still a little too small.

Am I dissapointed with his production as a second line center? Definately.

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Old
11-10-2009, 10:16 AM
  #47
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Am I worried? No. Am I slightly dissapointed? A bit. Can he play better? Yes. The problem with Matt in the games I have seen is he misses the net a ton. This is something he will soon figure out. Hes got all the tools to be a superstar in this league its just a matter of fine tuning a few things. His passing doesnt look all that great for a "playmaker" but then again he was prolly still playing street hockey 7 months ago. Hes trying alot of that Peter Forsberg initiate contact and distribute the puck in one motion thing...its wearing him down. He needs to cut that ****.

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11-10-2009, 12:27 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by ice berg slim View Post
Am I worried? No. Am I slightly dissapointed? A bit. Can he play better? Yes. The problem with Matt in the games I have seen is he misses the net a ton. This is something he will soon figure out. Hes got all the tools to be a superstar in this league its just a matter of fine tuning a few things. His passing doesnt look all that great for a "playmaker" but then again he was prolly still playing street hockey 7 months ago. Hes trying alot of that Peter Forsberg initiate contact and distribute the puck in one motion thing...its wearing him down. He needs to cut that ****.
Exactly. Although I've heard he is more of a goal scorer than a playmaker, naturally.

The times that I do see him try to simplify his game, he does seem to miss the net a lot (on those shots from just outside the circle that got him his first goal). It's kinda sad. I still have faith he turns it around and makes everyone eat their words though.

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Old
11-10-2009, 12:31 PM
  #49
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By the way, off topic a bit here but does ANYONE miss the net more than Adam Foote? I realize his shot is bad to begin with, but man I haven't seen a point shot that inaccurate since Derek Morris.

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11-10-2009, 12:31 PM
  #50
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By the way, off topic a bit here but does ANYONE miss the net more than Adam Foote? I realize his shot is bad to begin with, but man I haven't seen a point shot that inaccurate since Derek Morris.
Haha yeah you're right.

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