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All-Time Draft #12, Part VI

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Old
11-14-2009, 01:15 AM
  #176
overpass
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Good Oatman bio.

Question: We've seen the Toronto Star give two players who previously we had little go by outside of stats (Skinner, Oatman) a good glimpse in how they played. Do those old newspapers give anything on how Harris played?
Here's something for you on Harris, from the final Stanley Cup match in 1916. Apparently Harris was a fast skater, not sure if you knew that already.

Toronto Star, March 31, 1916

"The steadiness of the Canadien defence and lack of concentrative power in the Portland attack decided the game, when it comes down to the final analysis. The speed was there, so far as Portlandís attack was concerned, but it was never properly applied. Neither Oatman, with his brilliant stickhandling, nor Harris with his tremendous dash, nor Tobin with his splendid puck-carrying skill, could penetrate the Corbeau-McNamara, or Prodgers-Corbeau outside guard, as the case happened to be."

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11-14-2009, 01:21 AM
  #177
Leaf Lander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Leaf Lander...

ATD13 in January has all the time in the world to involve 1000 picks and, most importantly, it could be specified in the rules before the draft starts.

ATD12 is a 30-round draft that WILL be entirely done, playoffs and all, BEFORE the Christmas season. We should get a FULL month off between the ATD12 final and the start of ATD13.
were doing it in january not april?

and when you guys say you leave no stoen uncovered

do you share your info

I see so many references to newspapers like the tor star and the ny times I wasn't aware there was a collected group getting together to get all the player info possible.


As a fellow GM I would had like to been in on this.

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11-14-2009, 01:21 AM
  #178
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Here's something for you on Harris, from the final Stanley Cup match in 1916. Apparently Harris was a fast skater, not sure if you knew that already.

Toronto Star, March 31, 1916

"The steadiness of the Canadien defence and lack of concentrative power in the Portland attack decided the game, when it comes down to the final analysis. The speed was there, so far as Portlandís attack was concerned, but it was never properly applied. Neither Oatman, with his brilliant stickhandling, nor Harris with his tremendous dash, nor Tobin with his splendid puck-carrying skill, could penetrate the Corbeau-McNamara, or Prodgers-Corbeau outside guard, as the case happened to be."
Harris' bio in The Trail says he was a good skater and stickhandler. Of course, the more instances one finds of such things, the more "real" it becomes, so to speak.

I still think that old newspapers are truly the largest untapped resource for info on all these guys, and anything we find should be valued highly.

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11-14-2009, 01:23 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
were doing it in january not april?

and when you guys say you leave no stoen uncovered

do you share your info

I see so many references to newspapers like the tor star and the ny times I wasn't aware there was a collected group getting together to get all the player info possible.


As a fellow GM I would had like to been in on this.
There's no "official" collaboration going on. But most of us who select players in the MLD and AAA, do put together very detailed bios on the players. That info remains on hfboards for future generations to see. Certainly, nothing is being "hidden" from you. We are here to share our knowledge, not hoard it.

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11-14-2009, 01:26 AM
  #180
Leaf Lander
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about hiller like i said b4 but you ignored me he was listed as the top 73rd ranger by the TOP 100 Ranger Greats book and the 91st greatest ranger by pnep He is a bench warmer depth player with great speed. He has been said to have been the fastest ny ranger ever.His career ended because of a vision problem not because of anything else.

As far as McCool I have never seen a backup goalie who has won a cup ever loose a series for any gm and I won't see it occur this yr either. I think Johnny Bower will go all the way in this one for my team

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11-14-2009, 01:28 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
There's no "official" collaboration going on. But most of us who select players in the MLD and AAA, do put together very detailed bios on the players. That info remains on hfboards for future generations to see. Certainly, nothing is being "hidden" from you. We are here to share our knowledge, not hoard it.
since we are a group we really should consider this

and u can start by photo copying me a version of your 3 vol book
The Trail Of the Stanley Cup

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11-14-2009, 01:48 AM
  #182
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Thanks for the Harris quote.

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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
about hiller like i said b4 but you ignored me he was listed as the top 73rd ranger by the TOP 100 Ranger Greats book and the 91st greatest ranger by pnep He is a bench warmer depth player with great speed. He has been said to have been the fastest ny ranger ever.His career ended because of a vision problem not because of anything else.

As far as McCool I have never seen a backup goalie who has won a cup ever loose a series for any gm and I won't see it occur this yr either. I think Johnny Bower will go all the way in this one for my team
Didn't he bring up a couple top 100 Leafs that one wouldn't draft? Bring placed on a top 100 list for a franchise, especially a list that seems to be quite questionable (at least the list in that Ranger great book) does not automatically make you ATD worthy.

Of course a backup won't lose a series for a GM; but the point is, McCool is competing for worst one in the draft, and doesn't really belong here. A cup and one good playoff doesn't make one back-up worthy (I'll compare McCool to another guy one wouldn't likely think belongs here when the last picks are made if you like). And over the season, it could cost you a couple of games. And if Bower were to get injured, you'd be sunk. Hypotheticals of course that won't cost you too much, but still.

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11-14-2009, 02:23 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
about hiller like i said b4 but you ignored me he was listed as the top 73rd ranger by the TOP 100 Ranger Greats book and the 91st greatest ranger by pnep He is a bench warmer depth player with great speed. He has been said to have been the fastest ny ranger ever.His career ended because of a vision problem not because of anything else.
I absolutely did not ignore that!

Like my coach, Anatoly Tarasov, I never sidestep an argument.

I showed you that being the 73rd-best Ranger ever was no special accomplishment and gave you many examples of Rangers in the top-40 in that book that were not yet drafted and many more who weren't drafted until the 500s.

You got a new book, started reading it, and said "hmm, great speed, good checker, and 73rd best ranger ever! Sounds like a good 4th-liner to me." but that's not research; to me, it looked like you just took the first guy you found.

[QUOTE]

Quote:
As far as McCool I have never seen a backup goalie who has won a cup ever loose a series for any gm and I won't see it occur this yr either. I think Johnny Bower will go all the way in this one for my team
Me neither. But McCool ain't going to win a regular season game in this league. He's a AAA goaltender. That's two levels down. What happens when an ECHL goalie comes straight up to the NHL? I'll show you:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...fukufyu01.html

That will put you a long way behind the 8-ball when it's time to seed for the playoffs. Bower is an awesome starter, but with no backup, you may not get the regular season ranking you want, and a tougher starting matchup than you may have deserved with a legit backup.

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Old
11-14-2009, 03:08 AM
  #184
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I figured it out! When Bob Murray was picked, I listed him, but also listed another recently retired Murray, for some reason. So all picks are accounted for and I am no longer losing my mind.

Oh, and you really should check out those Reg Fleming videos. I had seen them before; they're well worth watching.

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11-14-2009, 03:32 AM
  #185
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so what about pneps hhof monitor position at 91st amongst the top 100 rangers

Further proof!

McCool left the nhl over a contract dispute and because of smythes loyalty to his players so when broda returned from WWII McCool and his bad nerves left.He didn't leave because of lack of skill

He did win a cup! Thus i believe he can play a game in this atd league.

He beat rocket richard on his way to the cup for crying out loud then the powerful young red wings team to win a cup

he ranked 69th in pneps list of top 100 players for the leafs
He was ranked 106th all time by another source

Backups never play and it shouldn't effect my ranking unless one is really starting to be very picky for little reason other then trying to prove that he is right!


like i said win a cup = can win a game in this atd league


Last edited by Leaf Lander: 11-14-2009 at 03:41 AM.
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Old
11-14-2009, 03:47 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
Backups never play
backups always play, anywhere from about 10% to 40% of the games. even workhorses like Brodeur and Fuhr got injured at times, and most goalies take nights off, as 82 games is madness!

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11-14-2009, 03:47 AM
  #187
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so what about pneps hhof monitor position at 91st amongst the top 100 rangers
Is being the 91st best player on a team that spent most of its existence as a bottom feeder really something to be proud of (again, in an all-time best context, not a real life context)?

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11-14-2009, 03:50 AM
  #188
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Is being the 91st best player on a team that spent most of its existence as a bottom feeder really something to be proud of?
I just did a rough estimate and of the 90 Rangers listed above Hiller, about 15 were undrafted.

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11-14-2009, 04:23 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
so what about pneps hhof monitor position at 91st amongst the top 100 rangers

Further proof!
How is this impressive??


Quote:
McCool left the nhl over a contract dispute and because of smythes loyalty to his players so when broda returned from WWII McCool and his bad nerves left.He didn't leave because of lack of skill

He did win a cup! Thus i believe he can play a game in this atd league.

He beat rocket richard on his way to the cup for crying out loud then the powerful young red wings team to win a cup

he ranked 69th in pneps list of top 100 players for the leafs
He was ranked 106th all time by another source

Backups never play and it shouldn't effect my ranking unless one is really starting to be very picky for little reason other then trying to prove that he is right!


like i said win a cup = can win a game in this atd league
He only had a job in the NHL because Broda was gone. Then when Broda came back, he was out. Yes, he did the best with his opportunity. There was really no competition other than Richard's habs. Many excellent players were off at war.

69th among Leafs is a joke. He played two seasons. pnep's list doesn't purport to be a "top 100 players" list. It is just a "hhof monitor" points list that assigns points based on certain objective accomplishments, one of which is winning a cup. A cup in 1945 is not like a cup in 1955, or even a cup in 1935. It was a weak year and his points system admittedly does not account for that.

What McCool did was worth something. What it was worth, is a AAA-level career, if that. Not an ATD backup. You can keep telling yourself he is good enough if you like, but all you have to do is start comparing him to all the backups (and minor league callups) and you will not find many whose careers McCool's even approaches. I think 96 goalies were taken; I would rank him 96th.

backups do play and if someone holds McCool against you, it's not because they're picky, it's because they understand the importance of the position. Furthermore, we tried to warn you and advised you to take another goalie. You didn't listen.

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11-14-2009, 07:29 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
backups always play, anywhere from about 10% to 40% of the games. even workhorses like Brodeur and Fuhr got injured at times, and most goalies take nights off, as 82 games is madness!
baloney

I rate teams based on per player basis and I don't get held up on lil minor details like backups. If the whole team is strong and a section is weaker then I their overall team score will be lowered

Backups play about 15% of their games and when your back ups are both stanley cup winners your pretty assured of at least winning half of the time.

you guys are all style and no substance!

You guys are saying that stanely cup winning goalies cannot win a game in the main league and I disagree

Your wrong!

You cannot show me info that shows he was a bad goalie.

The reports I read were that he stole a series vs a les candiens lead by rocket richard and then went on to beat a young future power house red wings squad


Last edited by Leaf Lander: 11-14-2009 at 07:35 PM.
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11-14-2009, 07:34 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
baloney

I rate teams based on per player basis and I dont get held up on lil minor details like backups.

Backups play about 15% of their games and when your back ups are both stanley cup winners your pretty assured of at least winning half of the time.

you guys are all style and no substance!
So any goalie who wins a cup automatically wins half his games? Problem with that is, virtually every goalie you face has won at least one cup.

Is a backup goalie that important? No. Is it meaningless? No. Is McCool going to win half his games? Rather unlikely, likely quite a bit less than that, if any at all. McCool has no good regular-season resume to play with; how much is a good playoff run going to help him in the regular season? Ward has similar troubles, but he at least has one good regular season under his belt.

McCool never did much in the regular season. He was ok in his one full season, but wasn't good enough to make an all star team. The only thing of note he did was in that playoff run, and he wasn't even considered to be the best player in the run by the HHOF. How is one decent regular-season and one good playoff run the resume of an ATD back up? How is it the resume of a top-64 goalie all time?

Question: Do you think McCool is not the worst goalie in this? Do you think McCool is not one of the worst goalies in this? If you don't think he's the worst, what goalie(s) is/are McCool better than?


Last edited by Leafs Forever: 11-14-2009 at 08:05 PM.
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11-14-2009, 08:14 PM
  #192
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Hey guys I'd like to drop someone and pick up someone else if possible? Can I do this?

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11-14-2009, 08:24 PM
  #193
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My job is to defend my goalie and other goailes do not come into question i can point to alot of golaies who have never won a cup while McCool has won a cup

IMO if you have won a cup you are backup worthy!

btw most leafs championship teams were not always stellar in the regular seasons

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11-14-2009, 08:33 PM
  #194
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My job is to defend my goalie and other goailes do not come into question i can point to alot of golaies who have never won a cup while McCool has won a cup

IMO if you have won a cup you are backup worthy!

btw most leafs championship teams were not always stellar in the regular seasons
Of course other goalies that come into question. If there are 64 goalies better than McCool, he isn't a backup. If there are 96 better than McCool, he doesn't belong in the draft at all.

Is the great Andy Aitkenhead worthy of a backup role? How about Martin Gerber?

So what? Fact is, McCool's regular season resume is likely one of the, if not the, worst amongst goalies in this draft and worse than a number of undrafteds.

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11-14-2009, 08:34 PM
  #195
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Hey guys I'd like to drop someone and pick up someone else if possible? Can I do this?
Don't know how the others feel, but I'm fine with this. I'm assuming it'll be for your callup squad, and seeing as there is no draft after this, I see absolutely no problem.

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11-14-2009, 08:44 PM
  #196
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ill drop McCool for kelly hrudey who will be my backup

I had to do this because my team was going to get side swiped because of a backup goalie.

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11-14-2009, 09:25 PM
  #197
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Don't know how the others feel, but I'm fine with this. I'm assuming it'll be for your callup squad, and seeing as there is no draft after this, I see absolutely no problem.
Actually I wanted to drop my assistant coach Bob Hartley and get someone to possible replace him. Let me know what you guys think.

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11-14-2009, 09:28 PM
  #198
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Actually I wanted to drop my assistant coach Bob Hartley and get someone to possible replace him. Let me know what you guys think.
Again, yeah that's fine with me.

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11-14-2009, 10:37 PM
  #199
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Again, yeah that's fine with me.
It's fine by mek, as there will be no MLD this time around.

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11-15-2009, 12:01 AM
  #200
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Before we start dropping guys, can we get some confirmation from the commish that it's ok? I don't know if it's "assumed" to be allowed or not.

FWIW, Kelly Hrudey is a much better choice than Frank McCool. At least you can count on him. He had a long career, went to the finals (and was excellent that year), had a pretty good sv% most years, and was 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th in Vezina voting.

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