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All-Time Draft #12 Line-up Assassination Thread

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Old
11-22-2009, 03:59 AM
  #601
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Took me a while to get to it, but this is the last one, boys...

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Thanks for the review GBC, it is much appreciated!

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11-22-2009, 04:23 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The numbers you quoted at the bottom looked pretty reasonable to me. But, as someone who has done a ton of research on pre-NHA hockey, I would like to disagree with you highly on this point. The CAHL and ECAHA were the best leagues. The next-best leagues, the FAHL and then the OPHL, were not really close. They were about like the WHA compared to the 1970s NHL. Then there were Tommy Phillipses and Harry Smiths playing in random leagues here and there. But the majority were still in the CAHL and ECAHA. These leagues were still just the same leagues that turned into the NHA after a restructure.
I figured about half the top players in the world were in Ontario. Do you think that assumption is unfair?

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11-22-2009, 04:38 AM
  #603
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good work GBC!!

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11-22-2009, 02:32 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I figured about half the top players in the world were in Ontario. Do you think that assumption is unfair?
Yes. Ontario was well ahead of the other areas of Canada, as the Montreal/Toronto/Ottawa area was where hockey really started to gain a foothold. When the PCHA was started, they didn't just use all those great players that were already in the west, they had to steal the players from the East, because that's where they all were.

Try this: Take a look at how many players were drafted among these 960 picks, that were playing hockey in 1904. Of those, what percentage were playing in the CAHL?

Do the same thing for the 1902 CAHL, and the 1906 ECAHA to get a good sampling of seasons. Assuming that the players we, as a group, selected represent the very best at that time (and I believe that we got pretty damn close) then that is your answer right there for what percentage of the best players were in the CAHL/ECAHA in that pre-NHA decade.

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11-22-2009, 05:29 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yes. Ontario was well ahead of the other areas of Canada, as the Montreal/Toronto/Ottawa area was where hockey really started to gain a foothold. When the PCHA was started, they didn't just use all those great players that were already in the west, they had to steal the players from the East, because that's where they all were.

Try this: Take a look at how many players were drafted among these 960 picks, that were playing hockey in 1904. Of those, what percentage were playing in the CAHL?

Do the same thing for the 1902 CAHL, and the 1906 ECAHA to get a good sampling of seasons. Assuming that the players we, as a group, selected represent the very best at that time (and I believe that we got pretty damn close) then that is your answer right there for what percentage of the best players were in the CAHL/ECAHA in that pre-NHA decade.
Just because we didn't draft them doesn't mean they weren't good. It just means we don't know about them yet. Was Mickey MacKay drafted in ATD 1?

Of the top 100 players in the world, how many were the CAHL and ECAHA?

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11-22-2009, 05:46 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Just because we didn't draft them doesn't mean they weren't good. It just means we don't know about them yet. Was Mickey MacKay drafted in ATD 1?

Of the top 100 players in the world, how many were the CAHL and ECAHA?
I wouldn't use 100 as a benchmark. I'd use the size of the CAHL/ECAHA. Otherwise, no kidding, not all of the 100 best players can be in a league that doesn't even have 100 players.

I'd use something closer to 40. And I'd say of the 40 best players in the world, roughly 70% of them (28) were in the ECAHA/CAHL and about 12 more would have been scattered elsewhere.

I'm pretty confident in my ability as a researcher. I'm even more confident in the abilities of myself, VI, Hedberg, and CR who have gone 1300 picks deep looking for the next-best players. It is possible that there is someone we've missed, but not probable. I know what leagues were the "next-best", that were likely to have the better non-ECAHA players, and I have access to the stats of those leagues. Any player who didn't absolutely blow those other leagues away (like Harry Smith), or get into the cup games and dominate (like Phillips or Whitcroft) or at least play a couple seasons in a top league to show they could (like Phillips or Whitcroft or Smith) or get into the HHOF by virtue of their skills in lesser, perhaps amateur leagues (like Ruttan, Maxwell, Baker, or Rankin) is at a severe disadvantage in terms of being able to sell them. In the ATD, as good as you can prove them to be = as good as they are. I don't see a single player who I could prove to be significantly better than the guys that are already taken from this time.

If you believe that we've missed a ton of greats from this time, who never played in top leagues, never played for the cup, and aren't recognized by the hall, then that is a non-starter as far as determining how many of the best players were in the top league, because we can't even agree on who the best players were. If you'd care to "humour" me and agree that, for the most part, the best early players are the ones that got taken in ATD12 (which, I should remind you, is the result of furious research in MLD8, AAA8, MLD9, MLD10, AAA10, AA10, MLD11, AAA11, and two "the leftovers" threads) then we have a starting point for discussion.

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11-22-2009, 09:20 PM
  #607
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Not that it will necessarily make any difference at this point, but any last minute view on whether I should dress Ozolinsh or Randall as my no.6?

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Old
11-23-2009, 02:27 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I wouldn't use 100 as a benchmark. I'd use the size of the CAHL/ECAHA. Otherwise, no kidding, not all of the 100 best players can be in a league that doesn't even have 100 players.

I'd use something closer to 40. And I'd say of the 40 best players in the world, roughly 70% of them (28) were in the ECAHA/CAHL and about 12 more would have been scattered elsewhere.

I'm pretty confident in my ability as a researcher. I'm even more confident in the abilities of myself, VI, Hedberg, and CR who have gone 1300 picks deep looking for the next-best players. It is possible that there is someone we've missed, but not probable. I know what leagues were the "next-best", that were likely to have the better non-ECAHA players, and I have access to the stats of those leagues. Any player who didn't absolutely blow those other leagues away (like Harry Smith), or get into the cup games and dominate (like Phillips or Whitcroft) or at least play a couple seasons in a top league to show they could (like Phillips or Whitcroft or Smith) or get into the HHOF by virtue of their skills in lesser, perhaps amateur leagues (like Ruttan, Maxwell, Baker, or Rankin) is at a severe disadvantage in terms of being able to sell them. In the ATD, as good as you can prove them to be = as good as they are. I don't see a single player who I could prove to be significantly better than the guys that are already taken from this time.

If you believe that we've missed a ton of greats from this time, who never played in top leagues, never played for the cup, and aren't recognized by the hall, then that is a non-starter as far as determining how many of the best players were in the top league, because we can't even agree on who the best players were. If you'd care to "humour" me and agree that, for the most part, the best early players are the ones that got taken in ATD12 (which, I should remind you, is the result of furious research in MLD8, AAA8, MLD9, MLD10, AAA10, AA10, MLD11, AAA11, and two "the leftovers" threads) then we have a starting point for discussion.
The reason I go with 100 is because there are about 10 different eras, and in a 960 player draft, then it's fair to look at 100 for each era.

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Old
11-23-2009, 10:36 AM
  #609
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VICTORIA COUGARS

Lindy Ruff
Victor Tikhonov

LW Charlie Simmer-C Peter Forsberg(A)-RW Maurice Richard(C)
LW Anatoli Firsov(A)-C Evgeni Malkin-RW Pavel Bure
LW Vsevolod Bobrov-C Vincent Lecavalier-RW Russell Bowie
LW Tomas Holmstrom-C Harry Smith-RW Yvgeni Babich

Brian Leetch(A)-Edward Ivanov
Nikolai Sologubov-Ivan Tregubov
Lennart Svedberg-Ian Turnbull

Tiny Thompson
Bouse Hutton

Power Play #1
LW Anatoli Firsov(A)-C Peter Forsberg(A)-RW Maurice Richard(C)
D Brian Leetch(A)-D Lennart Svedberg

Power Play #2
LW Tomas Holmstrom-C Vincent Lecavalier-RW Pavel Bure
D Evgeni Malkin-D Nikolai Sologubov

Penalty Killing #1
C Peter Forsberg(A)-W Yevgeni Babich
D Edward Ivanov-D Ivan Tregubov

Penalty Killing #2
C Vincent Lecavalier-W Anatoli Firsov(A)
D Brian Leetch(A)-D Nikolai Sologubov

Spares:
F Tumba Johansson
F Alexei Guryshev
D Ed Jovanovski
G Pelle Lindbergh
F Herb Jordan
F Lorne Campbell
D James Stewart
D Fred Higginbotham

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Old
11-23-2009, 11:20 AM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The reason I go with 100 is because there are about 10 different eras, and in a 960 player draft, then it's fair to look at 100 for each era.
If you've paid attention to me, and I'm sure you have, you'd know that I do my best to appreciate all eras equally. I like to say best then = best now, and even 10th best then = 10th best now. But 100? You really expect that we should ideally take 100 players from between 1900 and 1910 and 100 from 1980 to 1990 as equals?

The talent pool was much, much smaller. Think of the population of Canada, and the number of people playing hockey. There weren't even 100 players playing top-level hockey.

In 1906, for example, how would you begin to determine who the 100th-best player was? You've got 40 guys in the ECAHA, 40 more in the FAHL, so let's say 60 of those 80 qualify. Then you've got 10-15 IHL players, 5-10 amateurs, and 20 more players spread out in 3-4 other leagues such as the Maritime League, Alberta League, Manitoba Pro, Upper Ottawa Valley League, and so on. The 100th-best player would be the 30th-best in the ECAHA or FAHL, or 10th-15th in the IHL, or 5-6th in the MHL, AHL, UOVHL, etc. You would take a guy like that, over a guy who is the 3rd-4th-best player on his modern NHL team?

I really appreciate the attention you pay to the older eras, but expecting to find 100 players worthy of discussion from each period of time is really taking things too far.

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Old
11-23-2009, 12:40 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
If you've paid attention to me, and I'm sure you have, you'd know that I do my best to appreciate all eras equally. I like to say best then = best now, and even 10th best then = 10th best now. But 100? You really expect that we should ideally take 100 players from between 1900 and 1910 and 100 from 1980 to 1990 as equals?

The talent pool was much, much smaller. Think of the population of Canada, and the number of people playing hockey. There weren't even 100 players playing top-level hockey.

In 1906, for example, how would you begin to determine who the 100th-best player was? You've got 40 guys in the ECAHA, 40 more in the FAHL, so let's say 60 of those 80 qualify. Then you've got 10-15 IHL players, 5-10 amateurs, and 20 more players spread out in 3-4 other leagues such as the Maritime League, Alberta League, Manitoba Pro, Upper Ottawa Valley League, and so on. The 100th-best player would be the 30th-best in the ECAHA or FAHL, or 10th-15th in the IHL, or 5-6th in the MHL, AHL, UOVHL, etc. You would take a guy like that, over a guy who is the 3rd-4th-best player on his modern NHL team?

I really appreciate the attention you pay to the older eras, but expecting to find 100 players worthy of discussion from each period of time is really taking things too far.
For me, the "First Era" was from 1887 to 1910.

For me, guys like Herb Jordan, Joe Power, Art Hooper, Billy McGimsie, Art Farrell, Cam Davidson, Robert McDougall, Billy Barlow, Chauncey Kirby, Desse Brown, Routh Haviland, Herb Russell, Archie McNaughton, and Sam Lee are better offensive players as a lot of guys who were drafted.

I'm guilty of it too, but sometimes, we avoid taking older players because we don't want to have to defend new picks.

Look at what I've had to do with Moose Johnson... and he's a 10 x all-star....

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11-23-2009, 01:46 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
For me, the "First Era" was from 1887 to 1910.

For me, guys like Herb Jordan, Joe Power, Art Hooper, Billy McGimsie, Art Farrell, Cam Davidson, Robert McDougall, Billy Barlow, Chauncey Kirby, Desse Brown, Routh Haviland, Herb Russell, Archie McNaughton, and Sam Lee are better offensive players as a lot of guys who were drafted.

I'm guilty of it too, but sometimes, we avoid taking older players because we don't want to have to defend new picks.

Look at what I've had to do with Moose Johnson... and he's a 10 x all-star....
- Herb Jordan, Bob McDougall, and Haviland Routh (not Routh Haviland) were all drafted.

- McGimsie and Farrell are HHOFers but really don't have an offensive resume to speak of; just the fact that they're in the hall which hints at some sort of greatness. I assume you mean Tom Hooper, not Art. He wasn't much offensively at all, but could be a glue guy.

- Agree on Billy Barlow. He was an offensive star for multiple championships.

- Yes, Power is very underrated. 1st, 4th, 4th in scoring in a top league. Certainly better than many guys who have been taken in many MLDs.

- Desse Brown appears to have had good longevity but only had two good offensive seasons. Russell is the same, without the longevity.

- I can't find Kirby, McNaughton, Davidson, and Lee without The Trail. Their names are all familiar from the stats in that book but I don't recall them as standing out as dominant. They are most likely scrubs. Even if they were top-5 in scoring 1-2 times, this would be in the 1887-1995 period, and we've already scoured the top-20% of this era (i.e. the guys Ultimate Hockey bothered to make bios about, and we all hope they got it right)

You'd still have a long way to go to get to 100 players, and you're already naming scrubs.

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11-23-2009, 02:01 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- Herb Jordan, Bob McDougall, and Haviland Routh (not Routh Haviland) were all drafted.

- McGimsie and Farrell are HHOFers but really don't have an offensive resume to speak of; just the fact that they're in the hall which hints at some sort of greatness. I assume you mean Tom Hooper, not Art. He wasn't much offensively at all, but could be a glue guy.

- Agree on Billy Barlow. He was an offensive star for multiple championships.

- Yes, Power is very underrated. 1st, 4th, 4th in scoring in a top league. Certainly better than many guys who have been taken in many MLDs.

- Desse Brown appears to have had good longevity but only had two good offensive seasons. Russell is the same, without the longevity.

- I can't find Kirby, McNaughton, Davidson, and Lee without The Trail. Their names are all familiar from the stats in that book but I don't recall them as standing out as dominant. They are most likely scrubs. Even if they were top-5 in scoring 1-2 times, this would be in the 1887-1995 period, and we've already scoured the top-20% of this era (i.e. the guys Ultimate Hockey bothered to make bios about, and we all hope they got it right)

You'd still have a long way to go to get to 100 players, and you're already naming scrubs.
Here's the scoring list that I have for the pre NHA leagues.... I deleted all the weak players. I bolded the players you couldn't find.

Arthur Swift 1st(1887), 5th(1889), 2nd(1893), 1st(1894), 3rd(1895), 2nd(1896), 6th(1897)
Jack Campbell 4th(1887), 1st(1888)
Jack Findlay 5th(1887), 3rd(1889), 3rd(1890)
Archie McNaughton 3rd(1888), 1st(1889), 1st(1890)
Sam Lee 6th(1888), 3rd(1889), 4th(1890), 6th(1892)
Archie Hodgson 6th(1888), 2nd(1889), 8th(1893), 7th(1895)
Desse Brown 5th(1889), 4th(1890), 4th(1893), 4th(1898)
Robert Bradley 1st(1892), 2nd(1893)
Chauncey Kirby 4th(1892), 4th(1893), 5th(1894), 9th(1895)
Herbert Russell 4th(1892), 1st(1894), 3rd(1895)
Haviland Routh 1st(1893), 3rd(1894), 1st(1895)
Shirley Davidson 6th(1893), 5th(1894), 2nd(1896)
Billy Barlow 7th(1893), 3rd(1894), 3rd(1897)
Robert McDougall 3rd(1895), 1st(1896), 3rd(1898)
Graham Drinkwater 6th(1895), 6th(1896), 5th(1898)
Alf Smith 9th(1895), 6th(1896), 1st(1897), 8th(1904), 4th(1905), 9th(1906), 7th(1907), 9th(1908),
Clare McKerrow 2nd(1896), 1st(1897), 2nd(1898), 2nd(1899)
Harry Westwick 2nd(1896), 6th(1897), 8th(1901), 3rd(1902), 3rd(1905)
Cam Davidson 8th(1897), 1st(1898), 4th(1899)
Harry Trihey 1st(1899), 1st(1900), 6th(1901)
Russell Bowie 3rd(1899), 2nd(1900), 1st(1901), 2nd(1902), 1st(1903), 1st(1904), 1st(1905), 2nd(1906), 2nd(1907), 1st(1908)
Arthur Farrell 5th(1899), 6th(1900), 2nd(1901)
Bruce Stuart 4th(1900), 5th(1902), 3rd(1909)
Blair Russell 6th(1900), 4th(1901), 5th(1902), 7th(1903), 3rd(1904), 2nd(1905), 3rd(1907)
Art Hooper 1st(1902), 5th(1903), 4th(1906)
Jack Marshall 3rd(1902), 6th(1903), 1st(1904), 1st(1905), 8th(1907), 7th(1908)
Frank McGee 2nd(1903), 5th(1904), 1st(1905), 3rd(1906)
Herb Jordan 3rd(1903), 2nd(1904), 8th(1905), 8th(1906), 5th(1908), 2nd(1909)
Billy Gilmour 4th(1903), 9th(1909)
Joe Power 7th(1904), 3rd(1905), 4th(1906), 9th(1908)
Ernie Russell 5th(1905), 4th(1906), 1st(1907), 6th(1908)
Cecil Blanchford 5th(1905)
Frank Glass 6th(1905), 7th(1909)
Jack Marks 8th(1905)
Tommy Smith 1st(1906)
Harry Smith 1st(1906), 4th(1907)
Lester Patrick 6th(1906)
Ernie Johnson 10th(1906), 9th(1907)
Marty Walsh 1st(1908), 1st(1909)
Tommy Phillips 3rd(1908)
Charles Power 4th(1908), 3rd(1909)
Dubbie Kerr 5th(1909)
Harry Hyland 6th(1909)

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11-23-2009, 02:17 PM
  #614
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McNaughton looks good. If those are his only three seasons, I wouldn't take him. If he was a serviceable player for 3-4 more seasons he could be a decent pick.

Lee, Kirby, and Davidson have rather pedestrian finishes. Scrubs. The worthwhile players are already taken.

Something's way off with your Herb Jordan numbers. I got the info for this bio from SIHR data.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=171

Where did you get yours?

I also still don't know where this Art Hooper came from. I'm showing Russell Bowie was the top scorer in 1902. No Hooper shows up.

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11-23-2009, 02:48 PM
  #615
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I used a whole bunch of sources to make a list. I found the original list on Wikipedia, but figured that source may not be reliable, so I checked Legends of Hockey and Hockey-Reference. There were very few errors on the wikipedia page (I only have to make 2 or 3 adjustments). I'm sure there's a few mistakes that I couldn't correct.

Art Hooper played for Montreal AAA.

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12-09-2009, 04:00 AM
  #616
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Krutov can dig pucks out of the corner and play a tough game, but his relatively low amount of elite goal scoring finishes in the RSL, despite having Makarov on the other side tells me that he just wasn't all that skilled.
I just found this today, but I'll still respond.....

How many elite scoring seasons would be enough to make him a skilled player?

Krutov is a three time Soviet League goalscoring champion. That ties him with Makarov, Mikhailov, Petrov, Balderis, and Bobrov. Only Guryshev has more(5).

Here are his goalscoring finishes:
1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th

In international play, he has more elite finishes:
1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 7th

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