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All-Time Draft #12 Line-up Assassination Thread

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Old
11-11-2009, 10:33 PM
  #51
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
his extremely long stick, which was apparently a big part of his game.
His stick was legal in his own era.

Also, he certainly isn't the only one who used a stick that would now be considered illegal. How much would it effect Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, and Andy Bathgate if we took away their banana hook blades? How much does it effect Phil Esposito if we take away his snow shovel blade?

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11-11-2009, 11:12 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He accomplished what he accomplished despite this disability. His accomplishments are what make him arguably a top-100 player. Maybe he'd be top-40 if he had more fingers!
this is ATD, where players have to decide things on the ice, not top 100 debate, where things are decided by stats and reports, etc.

it does not make johnson less great that he would not be able to play at a high level today.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He could pass, shoot, and stickhandle well enough to win 8 consecutive 1st all -star selections, and he was considered the best stick-checker of his era. There's no reason to believe he wouldn't do the same in the ATD.
there is a very strong and obvious reason to believe he would not do the same.

passing, shooting, stickhandling and stick-checking were at much lower levels than they are today.

if having only 5 fingers is not a big problem, then why do players miss playoff games when they have broken fingers?

why are players so much less effective when they have wrist injuries?

Quote:
Furthermore, if he played today, he would have prosthetic fingers, which would actually make him even more effective than he was when he played.
adding prosthetic fingers still makes him much less dextrous than players with 2 hands.


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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
His stick was legal in his own era.

Also, he certainly isn't the only one who used a stick that would now be considered illegal. How much would it effect Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, and Andy Bathgate if we took away their banana hook blades? How much does it effect Phil Esposito if we take away his snow shovel blade?
it does not matter that it was legal. it is not legal in ATD. some things were legal that are not now.

hull, mikita and bathgate were all superstar players before they used curved sticks. other players also used them, so hull, mikita and bathgate did not have an advantage.

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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Again, clearly this guy was very good, and the fingers weren't hindering, or he could overcome it so that he could be good in those areas; if he overcome his lack of fingers to be a constant FAST defencemen, he can overcome it to raise his game up a bit.
i assume FAST is 1st all star.

we do not know how much of a problem it was for johnson to have only 1 functioning hand.
maybe that is why he needed a stick that would now be illegal.
(and which would also be a problem.)

Quote:
Things get translated into the ATD, no? If a guy was a great offensive player in his time, he is a (depending on how great) a great offensive player here. If the guy is the best defensive defencemen of his time, he'll be one of the best defensive defencemen here. If a guy was not hindered at all by his lack of fingers in his time, his lack of fingers will, at best, hinder him a very small amount.
almost all players would adapt to different eras, but things cannot always be translated, and i do not see why they should.


johnson's stick cannot be translated. it would be illegal.

i don't think worters' play translates well to the modern game. what would prevent players from shooting high?


i don't think gretzky's goalscoring would translate as well to an era of butterfly goalies with larger equipment. i think he would still score a very high number of goals, but would probably not dominate as much as he did.
his playmaking would be just as good, though, and he would still be probably the best offensive player.


imagine a hypothetical dominant goalie from around the turn of the century who was short and had had some severe leg injuries and was therefore not able to fully bend his knees or fully spread his legs.
when goalies were not allowed to drop to the ice, he would be OK, but today, he would not be nearly as effective. he would not be able to cover the net.
that he would not be able to adapt to the modern game does not mean he was not great in his time. but it does mean he would not be as good in ATD.


it makes no sense to pretend that having only 5 fingers is not a severe disadvantage.
how could such a player possibly have good puck skills?



we do not draft sets of stats and accomplishments, we draft players.


Last edited by nik jr: 11-11-2009 at 11:22 PM.
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Old
11-11-2009, 11:15 PM
  #53
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11-11-2009, 11:16 PM
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But to a degree, we are drafting accomplishments. that's why these guys are all-time greats - what they accomplished. Their attributes are just the reasons they achieved these things, or, didn't achieve more.

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11-11-2009, 11:21 PM
  #55
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But to a degree, we are drafting accomplishments. that's why these guys are all-time greats - what they accomplished. Their attributes are just the reasons they achieved these things, or, didn't achieve more.
but accomplishments cannot take the ice. a man with only 5 fingers does.

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11-11-2009, 11:26 PM
  #56
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MEDICINE HAT TIGERS
1987 and 1988 Memorial Cup Champions
Co-GMs: raleh and God Bless Canada
Head coach: Clarence "Hap" Day
Captain: Denis Potvin
Alternate captain: Rick Middleton
Alternate captain: Gary Roberts
Alternate captain: Elmer Lach

FORWARDS
Gary Roberts-Max Bentley-Rick Middleton
Brian Sutter-Elmer Lach-Martin St. Louis
Gilles Tremblay-Metro Prystai-Rene Robert
Steve Payne-Mike Richards-Allan "Scotty" Davidson
Brad Richards

DEFENCEMEN
Denis Potvin-Alexander Ragulin
Eric DesJardins-Randy Carlyle
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Oldrich Machac

GOALTENDERS
Billy Smith
Hugh Lehman


Power Play Units
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We will also employ Tremblay and Sutter in penalty killing roles.

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11-11-2009, 11:27 PM
  #57
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Medicine Hat Tigers self-assessment/pre-emptive strike

*In terms of team speed, team offence and team defence, we believe we match up well with any team in the draft. Most of our forwards are excellent skaters with high-end speed. Bentley, Lach, St. Louis, Prystai and Robert are very fast. Middleton's a very shifty skater with a lot of speeds. He can slow the pace of a game down, or he can speed it up.
*We built our forward lines from the centre out. The pivot was the first player picked for each line. Some of that was a little flukey, but we also wanted to be strong down the middle. Bentley and Lach give us one of the best 1-2 punches down the middle in the draft. Bentley's an electrifying offensive talent who does it all in the offensive zone. Fast, a great playmaker and shooter, and aggressive. We believe that Bentley and Middleton will be one of the best give-and-go tandems around. Middleton's a sniper, but he's also a tremendous skater and stick-handler. When hockey people talk about the best forwards not in the HHOF, Middleton's name is one of the first brought up. Gary Roberts brings everything we want in a complimentary player for this line: size, strength, toughness, character, play along the boards, great hands in tight, goal-scoring ability and a drive to the front of the net. In the years before his neck injury, he was unstoppable.
*Our second line is our first two-way line. Lach was a fabulous two-way player who brought more grit than you might expect for a Lady Byng winner. St. Louis has firmly established himself as a strong second-line winger in an ATD context. He's probably one of the fastest players in the draft. His puck skills, his playmaking abilities are outstanding, but he can also be a very effective finisher. He's also solid defensively and a threat to score short-handed. Brian Sutter is the complimentary forward on this line: a gritty goal-scorer who drives to the front of the net. He brings a lot of the same things that Roberts brings, although for a second line. Also very good defensively.
*Our third line is also a two-way line. Metro Prystai brings tremendous speed and a fine two-way game to this line. And he won a couple of Cups with Detroit. Robert brings everything to this line. Fine defensive player. Tough, physical, aggressive player. Great speed and skill. He's the kind of player we want in a third liner. Tremblay's solid. Excellent defensive player. And a very talented goal scorer with a top-10 in goals and a couple other close calls. The type of line that can take a regular shift, and finish with a good plus-minus by the end of the season.
*Fourth line might not have a ton of experience, but they showed enough in their respective careers. Mike Richards is one of the best all-round players in the world today. He's been such for more than two years. He makes plays, causes headaches for the opposition and throws big hits. Scotty Davidson was one of the best in the world before he was killed in battle. Purported to have speed, a heavy shot, great offensive skill and a wonderful two-way game. Stats aren't everything, but his 69 and 64 PIM totals indicate some form of aggressive game. Steve Payne brings a big-body presence, powerful skating, goal-scoring ability and big-game mentality to this line.
*If there's one weakness up front, it's size. Our biggest centre is Richards at 5'11”. Our biggest RW is Middleton, who's also 5'11”. We have a lot of guys, who, by an ATD standard are average size. I haven't tabulated the average size in the draft, but I'm guessing it's around 5'10.” We aren't undersized, but we're average-sized. We have a lot of guys who played bigger than their size, which is good. Better to have small guys who play big than big guys who play small. And they're small, fast players.
*Our defence has a nice blend of skill, toughness, two-way presence and size. If size is a problem up front, it isn't on the back end. Our shortest defenceman is the stocky Randy Carlyle. It's not the most mobile defence in the draft, but they aren't going to get beat, they have excellent hockey sense and they move the puck very well.
*Potvin's the anchor. The beauty of a guy like Denis is he dominates every aspect of the game. There's nothing he can't do. He can, at once, be an elite offensive and defensive defenceman. He's tough. He's physical. He's a great leader. He can carry a team on his back.
*Ragulin gets the lucky job of working with Denis. Rags makes a decent first pass and he's a smart, steady, physical-but-clean compliment. Denis doesn't need a defensive conscience, but Rags is a good fit.
*If Rags wasn't going to play with Denis, then Eric DesJardins would have. A lot of similarities between DesJardins and Rags – smart, steady, heads-up defencemen with good size. Eric's a better offensive defenceman; Rags is better in his own zone. We feel more comfortable with Rags than DesJardins on the top pairing. Carlyle's a solid, all-round defenceman for the No. 4 spot. He doesn't have a weakness in his game. High-end offensive ability, too, and very tough to play against. I actually had Carlyle rated higher than DesJardins, but thought that DesJardins was a better fit for what I wanted in a No. 3. When Carlyle slipped to the 10th round, we knew we had to snap him up, even though it was much sooner than we wanted.
*Huddy and Maxwell is a solid No. 3. They give us one thing I want in a No. 3 pairing: an ability to play against an opponent's top line. Yes, Potvin's tandem and DesJardins tandem can play against a top line, but if we get into a match-up situation, we like this tandem. Huddy's the steadying presence, Maxwell's the muscle, but both make a good first pass, and Maxwell's very good offensively.
*One player I want to comment on is McSorley. We like our team toughness. Roberts, Sutter and Maxwell are very good fighters. They're not elite fighters. Marty is. That was one need we felt we needed to address, and we thought we could address. Marty's a good enough hockey player that he can step in and play a No. 6 defenceman or a No. 4 winger role if we need it. And he was always well-liked by his teammates, so we're confident he'll slide into a spare part role.
*Billy Smith is our guy in goal. He'll get 50-55 starts. Lehman will start the rest. Billy is a fantastic big-game goalie. You can start with the 88-36 record in the playoffs, the 19 straight series wins, the Conn Smythe Trophy or the role on four straight Cup champs. Billy was all about winning. He makes the saves when they matter the most. He gets “it.” Lehman, we believe, is the best back-up in the draft. Better than one or two No. 1's, but best-served as a No. 2. He'll give us 30 games of great play.
*I believe that Hap Day is in that five-to-seven class for all-time coaches. You have Bowman, Blake, Arbour and Ivan in the top four. Then you have Day, Irvin and Patrick in the five-to-seven group. But there isn't a legit drop from Bowman to Day, or Patrick, or anyone in that top seven. We played a hunch when we picked Day that we wouldn't get another shot at a coach of his calibre, and we were right. As a player, he was known for his gregarious demeanour, his leadership, his hockey sense and his aggressiveness. The leadership, hockey sense and aggressiveness translated well to coaching. But he was no-nonsense as a coach. Tough but fair. And he knows our star forward (Max Bentley) very well.

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Old
11-11-2009, 11:30 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
But to a degree, we are drafting accomplishments. that's why these guys are all-time greats - what they accomplished. Their attributes are just the reasons they achieved these things, or, didn't achieve more.
It's because of how a played played the game that he accomplished what he did. I always talk about whether a player's game will translate well from the NHL/NHA/WHA/Western League/European League, to an ATD. Accomplishments don't parlay to an ATD level. The player's game does.

A lot of players have accomplished a lot, but I have doubts as to whether they have the speed, hockey sense, or the willingness to do what it takes to succeed at another level up. And that's what this is. It's like a season of a best-on-best, or a season of all-star games. And just like international best-on-bests for nearly 40 years, there are players who did great things in the NHL who struggled in the best-on-best because they didn't have a game suited for them.

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11-11-2009, 11:35 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
adding prosthetic fingers still makes him much less dextrous than players with 2 hands.
But he'd be even better than he was. Maybe a 10 x all star?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
it does not matter that it was legal. it is not legal in ATD. some things were legal that are not now.
Do you have the ATD rulebook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
hull, mikita and bathgate were all superstar players before they used curved sticks. other players also used them, so hull, mikita and bathgate did not have an advantage.
Just like Johnson, their hooks were legal then, but would be illegal now.


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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
johnson's stick cannot be translated. it would be illegal.
It wasn't illegal when he played.

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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
it makes no sense to pretend that having only 5 fingers is not a severe disadvantage.
how could such a player possibly have good puck skills?
It is a disadvantage, just like it was when he actually played. Even with the disadvantage, he was selected to 8 consecutive first all-star teams. Why is having no fingers more a disadvantage now than it was back then?

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11-11-2009, 11:44 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
But to a degree, we are drafting accomplishments. that's why these guys are all-time greats - what they accomplished. Their attributes are just the reasons they achieved these things, or, didn't achieve more.
I would say the accomplishment come into play mainly for guys we know little to nothing about otherwise. We then use their accomplishments and their context to depict, to the best of our abilities, how good they are. That's a big reason I'm not a huge fan of using accomplishments for modern players. For example, I don't care if he did win a Vezina, there's no way you're convincing me Kiprusoff is a better goalie than Luongo in an ATD context.

As for Moose Johnson, while his stick was legal back then, it won't be now. For the guys with the wicked curves, we know they were good without them, so they're fine. Conversely, we don't fault the players of old for using straight sticks and heavy skates and whatnot. Otherwise, if we did, the best teams would be all-modern(that is to say, if we didn't totally adjust for era). However, we don't know if Moose can be effective without an illegal stick. IMO it is definitely a major concern.

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11-11-2009, 11:44 PM
  #61
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Bowman was never a big fan of line-matching. He liked to roll all four, and have his top line out there against the opponent's best. So I'm not surprised that you would go with the same philosophy.

I don't fault the Howe and Boucher selections. Both may have been the BPA when you selected them. There were still good No. 1's out there when you picked Tretiak - Pronger, Leetch and Lapointe among them. Howe and Pronger on the same team would have been terrifying.

By the end of his career, or even in a couple years, we may be talking about Chara as a No. 1. I don't know if he's fast enough for that role, but you can't deny the dominance. He's probably a future HHOFer right now.

You're right when you say that every teams going to be missing parts. The thing is, minute-munching ace defenceman is the one you can't go without. Chara-Ching will be an imposing pairing to play against, but neither is the ace No. 1 that is needed.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
Thanks GBC for the nice evaluation ... to answer some of your questions.

The third line is in fact a scoring line. My team is going to match up with my opponents line for line. With a two-way centre like Boucher as my top centre, in addition to Howe, I think I can afford that luxury. Of course, with Bowman as my coach, the greatest bench coach ever, I'm not too worried about getting the matchup I want.

You also point out the lack of a true number one defenseman in my squad. I think that Chara with his size and his reach presents a multitude for problems for the opposition, but that argument is for another day.

However, I think in a 32 team ATD you're going to see some team's that may be missing some parts.

I picked at #3 and took Gordie Howe, a pick I think most here would have made. I then didn't pick again until pick #62 when I took Frank Boucher. In between those picks there were 21 defensemen taken in the draft. I would argue that in that group one would find the true #1 defensemen. The simple truth of the matter is that I could have drafted a number one defenseman with the third overall pick. By picking Howe, I gave up the chance to have an elite number one d-man on my team.

Obviously, because of my draft position I was unable to maybe get one of those coveted number ones, so instead I went with Boucher and Tretiak each of whom I feel are elite at their position. Picking Boucher meant passing on Serge Savard and Rod Langway, and picking Tretiak meant passing on Vasiliev. Since you have already said a few posts back that you didn't feel that Langway or Vasiliev were true #1 defensemen, I feel quite comfortable in getting Chara and Johnson later, both of whom I rank as comparable with Langway and Vasiliev, and who I feel make one of the most physically imposing pairings in the ATD.

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11-11-2009, 11:57 PM
  #62
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As for Moose Johnson, while his stick was legal back then, it won't be now.
Why is it illegal now?

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11-12-2009, 12:01 AM
  #63
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I don't know what's more impressive: that Johnson did what he did without the fingers (he has the Staubby look from "The Ringer" going for him) or that he did it with an eight-foot stick. I was always told to use the stick that's ideal for my height, and not just the biggest stick out there. We'll see how it works for him in this format.

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11-12-2009, 12:04 AM
  #64
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If this is about how well a player will translate literally from his era to a modern era, I quit this thing right here and now. This Moose Johnson argument is about as ridiculous as the Phil Esposito is not good at even strength lunacy that occurred at the Leafschat boards.

I always thought the ATD was about relativity. If a guy got a lot of PIMs in his era, he'll get a lot of PIMs here. If he was fast in his era, he'll be fast here. Etc etc. Not, he only had 1 hand, so he'll be useless in the ATD, even though he transcended that disability to be one of the best defensemen of his time. So how about Eddie Shore? Whacking guys over the head gets you banned from the NHL, are we going to call him the worst defenseman ever because he can't control his temper? A lot of the pre-merger players were this violent, are they all useless because of that? Are all the pre-forward passing players useless because they will not be able to keep up with the faster pace that forward passing allows?

One standard or another. If we're allowing Eddie Shore to not be banned from the game 5 minutes after he steps on the ice, then so help me God that Moose Johnson will still be just as good as he was in his day, one hand or not. All this talk about a guy's abilities translating to the ATD or not is just silly if you ask me. I always thought this was about what a guy accomplished despite any deficiencies he had. Like Bill Cowley and Nels Stewart. Both slow and bad defensively, yet they accomplished so much despite that. I can think of many other examples.

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11-12-2009, 12:48 AM
  #65
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Line 1: Brendan Shanahan - Bryan Trottier (C) - Sergei Makarov
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11-12-2009, 12:49 AM
  #66
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The ATD does represent a step up in competition. Every team is loaded. They're all-star teams. They're the calibre of strong teams in best-on-bests. We're not just picking the best of what's available to us, we're picking the best of the best that's ever been out there.

There is an element of how a guy's game will parlay from one level to another. It's not as big of a jump as say, going directly from junior to the NHL. And you're right - the guy who's fast in the NHL will be fast in the ATD. Nobody's questioning how fast Howie Morenz will be, or how well Al MacInnis will shoot the puck, or how well Wayne Gretzky will think the game, or how good Dave Keon will be defensively. But in the case of someone who has a legit hole in their game, particularly skating, hockey sense, work ethic or consistency, then yeah, I have concerns on how well their game is going to parlay into an all-time situation.

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11-12-2009, 12:58 AM
  #67
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The ATD does represent a step up in competition. Every team is loaded. They're all-star teams. They're the calibre of strong teams in best-on-bests. We're not just picking the best of what's available to us, we're picking the best of the best that's ever been out there.

There is an element of how a guy's game will parlay from one level to another. It's not as big of a jump as say, going directly from junior to the NHL. And you're right - the guy who's fast in the NHL will be fast in the ATD. Nobody's questioning how fast Howie Morenz will be, or how well Al MacInnis will shoot the puck, or how well Wayne Gretzky will think the game, or how good Dave Keon will be defensively. But in the case of someone who has a legit hole in their game, particularly skating, hockey sense, work ethic or consistency, then yeah, I have concerns on how well their game is going to parlay into an all-time situation.
What's the hole in Johnson's game?

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11-12-2009, 01:01 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
If this is about how well a player will translate literally from his era to a modern era, I quit this thing right here and now. This Moose Johnson argument is about as ridiculous as the Phil Esposito is not good at even strength lunacy that occurred at the Leafschat boards.

I always thought the ATD was about relativity. If a guy got a lot of PIMs in his era, he'll get a lot of PIMs here. If he was fast in his era, he'll be fast here. Etc etc. Not, he only had 1 hand, so he'll be useless in the ATD, even though he transcended that disability to be one of the best defensemen of his time. So how about Eddie Shore? Whacking guys over the head gets you banned from the NHL, are we going to call him the worst defenseman ever because he can't control his temper? A lot of the pre-merger players were this violent, are they all useless because of that? Are all the pre-forward passing players useless because they will not be able to keep up with the faster pace that forward passing allows?

One standard or another. If we're allowing Eddie Shore to not be banned from the game 5 minutes after he steps on the ice, then so help me God that Moose Johnson will still be just as good as he was in his day, one hand or not. All this talk about a guy's abilities translating to the ATD or not is just silly if you ask me. I always thought this was about what a guy accomplished despite any deficiencies he had. Like Bill Cowley and Nels Stewart. Both slow and bad defensively, yet they accomplished so much despite that. I can think of many other examples.
no one is talking about transporting players exactly as they were into today. that should be obvious based only on which players were picked in the 1st round.


i assume that players from earlier eras can adapt to newer eras, b/c they are fundamentally the same as modern players.


but i think there are cases where a player would not be able to adapt as well as most players to modern hockey.

i already mentioned some of them.

i am saying that johnson had a physical limitation that did not prevent him from becoming great in his time, when the skill level was much lower, but would prevent him from becoming great today, b/c lacking 5 fingers would impede him from having the precision and puck skills that are fundamental in the modern game.

johnson may have great hockey sense or speed or positioning or tenacity or whatever in comparison to any number of modern players, but having only 5 fingers is an entirely different matter, b/c, imo, it limits the player's skills and finesse, which are very important in modern hockey, and even more so in ATD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
But he'd be even better than he was. Maybe a 10 x all star?
i suppose he would be have better with a prosthetic hand.

but in modern times, when play is at a much higher level, i cannot see how only 5 fingers would not be a major limiting factor on his skills.

Quote:
Do you have the ATD rulebook?
i assume players use standard equipment.

Quote:
Just like Johnson, their hooks were legal then, but would be illegal now.
yes

but those players proved they were great with standard equipment.

i believe johnson said something like "i always had my stick with me. they buried it with me."

Quote:
It wasn't illegal when he played.
i don't understand the relevance.

he won't be using it in ATD.

Quote:
It is a disadvantage, just like it was when he actually played. Even with the disadvantage, he was selected to 8 consecutive first all-star teams. Why is having no fingers more a disadvantage now than it was back then?
b/c the skill level is much higher. high level in 1912 is not the same as high level today.

passing is much better. shooting is much better. puck control is much better. game is faster, so players have less time to make decisions. defenses are better, so passes must be more accurate. coaches and specialists study the mechanics of skating and shooting and passing and hitting, and each part of goaltending.


hands are some of the most complicated and delicate tools on earth. only thing i can think of that is even comparable is the elephant's trunk.


does lacking a functional right hand not limit his puck skills?

can a man with only 5 fingers control the end of the stick well enough to perform basic skills at a high level?

how many many times do you adjust your hands when you are playing hockey? how would johnson do that?



we have all heard players described as having "great hands". some players have much better hands than others, and some are referred to as stone hands.

but imagine 1 hand.



how did johnson even hold his stick? was it bound to his right hand with cord? this is not relevant to ATD, but how did he keep it in place?



............


i think we should have this debate in a new thread, rather than this one. this is lineup assassination.

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11-12-2009, 01:04 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
The ATD does represent a step up in competition. Every team is loaded. They're all-star teams. They're the calibre of strong teams in best-on-bests. We're not just picking the best of what's available to us, we're picking the best of the best that's ever been out there.

There is an element of how a guy's game will parlay from one level to another. It's not as big of a jump as say, going directly from junior to the NHL. And you're right - the guy who's fast in the NHL will be fast in the ATD. Nobody's questioning how fast Howie Morenz will be, or how well Al MacInnis will shoot the puck, or how well Wayne Gretzky will think the game, or how good Dave Keon will be defensively. But in the case of someone who has a legit hole in their game, particularly skating, hockey sense, work ethic or consistency, then yeah, I have concerns on how well their game is going to parlay into an all-time situation.
Here's my beef with this: if a guy's bad work ethic, or his bad skating truly affected his ability to play the game, it would have shown in his real life legacy. Bill Cowley for example was known to have skating issues, yet that didn't stop him from becoming one of the greatest playmakers of his day. Pavel Brendl, for example, had bundles of talent, but didn't care to put much work into the game. His stats certainly reflect that. To summarize my point:

If a guy's bad skating affected his game, his stats and overall game would suffer.

If he had bad work ethic, his stats and overall game would suffer.

If he had consistency issues, well, then he probably got 80 points instead of the 100 that could have been his if he was more consistent. The stats and overall game, again, reflect this.

See a trend here? If you look at what a guy accomplished and ensure that you account for who his teammates were at the time (the Rob Brown syndrome, again, the stats would reflect this, for example, how did this guy do when he stopped playing with player x?), you can get an accurate representation of what you could expect from him in an ATD, and you don't need to think about consistency issues and whatnot. A player makes his own legacy with the tools that are given to him and what he chooses to do with them. His legacy is a representation of everything he did with the tools he had at his disposal throughout his entire carerer. I'm still going to ensure I match guys properly to ensure line chemistry, but never would I think that, for example, Bill Cowley's game can't translate well to the ATD because he was slow. The only time it becomes a real problem is if you have a line that has absolutely no defensive conscience and isn't good enough offensively to offset that, or a line of 3 of the slowest players of their era, etc.

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11-12-2009, 01:06 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
If a guy's bad skating affected his game, his stats and overall game would suffer.

If he had bad work ethic, his stats and overall game would suffer.

If he had consistency issues, well, then he probably got 80 points instead of the 100 that could have been his if he was more consistent. The stats and overall game, again, reflect this.
I agree. Otherwise you're double counting negative attributes.

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11-12-2009, 01:10 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
I agree. Otherwise you're double counting negative attributes.
Exactly. It's why I only worry about line chemistry when it really is an issue. Sturminator pretty much got it dead-on: a puck winner, a playmaker and a goal scorer. Extra defensive presence is a bonus, and if you make sure that you have all that without your guys being too slow, you're well off in my books. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.

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11-12-2009, 01:23 AM
  #72
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
does lacking a functional right hand not limit his puck skills?
Only as much as it limited him when he played....

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11-12-2009, 01:29 AM
  #73
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At first, I was very accepting of the fact that I had weak 2nd line wingers.... but then I took a look though all the other rosters. Both Tommy Smith and Billy Boucher are among the top half of second line wingers.

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11-12-2009, 03:20 AM
  #74
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11-12-2009, 05:39 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
I agree. Otherwise you're double counting negative attributes.
It depends. In the particular case of prewar players of limited speed, one wonders, due to the speed of the game, how much the negative attribute was actually "counted" during their careers...hence my enduring dislike of Buck Boucher and Cy Denneny (to name the most prominent players who fall into this category) relative to most other GMs. This gets more extreme the further back we go until we get to very slow hockey in which the "starters" played virtually the entire game.

There is also the question of "bad team" players who didn't respond well to pressure, tight checking or not being the star. You can't really get away with that in the ATD. But these are the exceptions to the rule, and in general, I agree. Double jeopardy is a dangerous precendent.

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