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Old
11-11-2009, 08:03 PM
  #1
Lahey
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Toronto-Chicago

This was proposed in a different thread, but I added to it, also in the other thread talks became more about the kessel trade.. How good kaberle or cambell are.. Please none of that here... Just strictly about this proposal.

To Tor:
Campbell
Beach
1st round pick 2010
AHL'er with 3rd line potential

To Chi:
Kaberle
Wallin (or another shutdown guy)

Can Leaf's and Hawk's fans agree on this?

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11-11-2009, 08:05 PM
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Toronto takes this, me thinks.

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11-11-2009, 08:08 PM
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GordieHoweHatTrick
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I can't agree with this.

Slave, when you say "Toronto takes this, me thinks," do you mean in reality or that you would personally take this. I thought you were one of biggest advocates to keeping Kaberle for the term of his current contract and beyond...

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11-11-2009, 08:11 PM
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If everyone agrees will all the Chicago-Toronto proposals magically disappear?

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11-11-2009, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
I can't agree with this.

Slave, when you say "Toronto takes this, me thinks," do you mean in reality or that you would personally take this. I thought you were one of biggest advocates to keeping Kaberle for the term of his current contract and beyond...
I love Kaberle. Dont get me wrong and I still remain a strong advocate of keeping him, but do you see what we're receiving here ?

Brian Campbell (An overpaid player with similar skillset)
1st rounder '10
Kyle Beach (A future top 6 forward with size and toughness)

The potential is TOO much here !!

I've always been a big Beach fan. He has 15 goals in 16 games playing for Spokane.

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11-11-2009, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slave View Post
I love Kaberle. Dont get me wrong and I still remain a strong advocate of keeping him, but do you see what we're receiving here ?

Brian Campbell (An overpaid player with similar skillset)
1st rounder '10
Kyle Beach (A future top 6 forward with size and toughness)

The potential is TOO much here !!

I've always been a big Beach fan. He has 15 goals in 16 games playing for Spokane.
I was the original OP a few days ago, and it was rhetorical to the Hot Stove discussion. I wouldn't do it though, but I saw it as close to equal value. The 1 big problem I have with it is Beachs attitude and concussion issues. He may have fantastic potential, but concussion issues scare me about anyone.

But don't be surprised to see Kabs make similar money in 2 years. Especially if he leaves T-O.

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11-11-2009, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slave View Post
I love Kaberle. Dont get me wrong and I still remain a strong advocate of keeping him, but do you see what we're receiving here ?

Brian Campbell (An overpaid player with similar skillset)
1st rounder '10
Kyle Beach (A future top 6 forward with size and toughness)

The potential is TOO much here !!

I've always been a big Beach fan. He has 15 goals in 16 games playing for Spokane.
and with Campbell's contract we wont' be able to sign Beach so you'll lose him anyway. No interest in Campbell regardless of what comes with him

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11-11-2009, 08:31 PM
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and with Campbell's contract we wont' be able to sign Beach so you'll lose him anyway. No interest in Campbell regardless of what comes with him
That might just be a little too premature to say at the moment.

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11-11-2009, 08:51 PM
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I would think they would want Versteeg over Beach.
But personally i think Brouwer is a Burke type of player, and that he would want him included somehow. I like Brouwer alot myself, hes gotten better every year and can play in all zones and situations, play the body and his offense is starting to come. His last game was his best thus far, with 1 goal and 2 assists. I think that he could potentially compliment Kessel very well down the road.

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11-11-2009, 09:48 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by TheChief View Post
I would think they would want Versteeg over Beach.
But personally i think Brouwer is a Burke type of player, and that he would want him included somehow. I like Brouwer alot myself, hes gotten better every year and can play in all zones and situations, play the body and his offense is starting to come. His last game was his best thus far, with 1 goal and 2 assists. I think that he could potentially compliment Kessel very well down the road.
I'd rather go with Beach over Versteeg. The potential is just tooo much.

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11-11-2009, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TheChief View Post
I would think they would want Versteeg over Beach.
But personally i think Brouwer is a Burke type of player, and that he would want him included somehow. I like Brouwer alot myself, hes gotten better every year and can play in all zones and situations, play the body and his offense is starting to come. His last game was his best thus far, with 1 goal and 2 assists. I think that he could potentially compliment Kessel very well down the road.
Brouwer is probably a 3rd liner and we could get him without trading for Kaberle, Beach and a 1st on the other hand would require to trade Kaberle though.

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11-11-2009, 11:10 PM
  #12
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Would you expect this to be in season, or off season? It will be really hard to get Kaberle in season.

It's getting closer to what I would expect, but is $3 000 000 salary cap saving worth losing Beech and the 1st, along with Campbell for Chicago? Would there need to be one more player on each side to tilt the cap savings a buit heavier for Chicago, as in Sharp for a $1.5-3 million player, to at least give them $4-5 million in savings?

As a Leaf fan, I'm more for this as taking Beech, at an ELC balances out what Campbell is getting paid.

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11-11-2009, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
Would you expect this to be in season, or off season? It will be really hard to get Kaberle in season.

It's getting closer to what I would expect, but is $3 000 000 salary cap saving worth losing Beech and the 1st, along with Campbell for Chicago? Would there need to be one more player on each side to tilt the cap savings a buit heavier for Chicago, as in Sharp for a $1.5-3 million player, to at least give them $4-5 million in savings?

As a Leaf fan, I'm more for this as taking Beech, at an ELC balances out what Campbell is getting paid.
I could see chicago doing this because they get the cap relief and quite frankly an upgrade over Campbell. Campbell contract is just bad in terms of both cap hit (7.1 Million) and term (6 more year after this season). For me i don't want Campbell contract anywhere near Toronto who also have their share of bad contracts (finger and blake) which is combined 7.5 Million for 2 more years after this season. IF we can get rid of Finger and Blake then maybe but the chicago deal is very enticing never the less.

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11-11-2009, 11:42 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by leafsfan2 View Post
I could see chicago doing this because they get the cap relief and quite frankly an upgrade over Campbell. Campbell contract is just bad in terms of both cap hit (7.1 Million) and term (6 more year after this season). For me i don't want Campbell contract anywhere near Toronto who also have their share of bad contracts (finger and blake) which is combined 7.5 Million for 2 more years after this season. IF we can get rid of Finger and Blake then maybe but the chicago deal is very enticing never the less.
Good luck convincing others around here of that. Beach is going to be on an ELC for 3 years so the cap hits should even out. I don't want to trade Kaberle, but if Kaberle is to be traded, I don't hate this deal, I just think that is a big price to pay, being that Kaberle and Campbell are +/-= according to non-leaf fans. Add an 11th overall from 2 years ago and a 1st, and all you get is an exchange of players, and lose 2 good young assets, and $3 000 000 in cap space, where you need more than that. I'd have to think there are other ways for Chicago to get much more than $3 000 000.

Chicago fans, how much do you need to shed for next year? Is $3 000 000 enough? Are you willing to lose an ELC and a 1st round pick for $3 000 000 in cap space? Would it not make more sence to trade Sharp for a 2nd round pick and gain $4 000 000 rthan do this deal. Or trade the 1st round pick for 1 or 2 ELC guys, and keep the lower end of the team at the lower end of the salary structure?

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11-12-2009, 12:36 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
Good luck convincing others around here of that. Beach is going to be on an ELC for 3 years so the cap hits should even out. I don't want to trade Kaberle, but if Kaberle is to be traded, I don't hate this deal, I just think that is a big price to pay, being that Kaberle and Campbell are +/-= according to non-leaf fans. Add an 11th overall from 2 years ago and a 1st, and all you get is an exchange of players, and lose 2 good young assets, and $3 000 000 in cap space, where you need more than that. I'd have to think there are other ways for Chicago to get much more than $3 000 000.

Chicago fans, how much do you need to shed for next year? Is $3 000 000 enough? Are you willing to lose an ELC and a 1st round pick for $3 000 000 in cap space? Would it not make more sence to trade Sharp for a 2nd round pick and gain $4 000 000 rthan do this deal. Or trade the 1st round pick for 1 or 2 ELC guys, and keep the lower end of the team at the lower end of the salary structure?
Chicago is a team in a win-now mode. By trading Sharp, for example, for a 2nd rounder, they lose a huge commodity without acquiring one back. In short, the 2nd rounder won't help them win the cup this year. Sharp will definitely help.

The whole idea behind trading Campbell for Kaberle is because first of all they're getting a further upgrade in the position, and second of all they manage to save cap space without including any other impact roster player off their roster.

In the end, Chicago gets an upgrade at an important position, and saves 3 million in cap space. Toronto deals their best D, making very affordable salary, for a defenseman making almost twice as much. The result directly affects the cap situation. For compensation of that, they also receive a 1st rounder (likely to be a very late one) and Kyle Beach, their top prospect.

Quite honestly, I just don't see any other team in the league taking that horrid contract except the Leafs. Some might call Toronto crazy for doing so, but it is essentially buying a 1st and Kyle Beach for 3 million in cap space. It's a risk I'm willing to take.

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Old
11-12-2009, 12:54 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by The Slave View Post
Chicago is a team in a win-now mode. By trading Sharp, for example, for a 2nd rounder, they lose a huge commodity without acquiring one back. In short, the 2nd rounder won't help them win the cup this year. Sharp will definitely help.

The whole idea behind trading Campbell for Kaberle is because first of all they're getting a further upgrade in the position, and second of all they manage to save cap space without including any other impact roster player off their roster.

In the end, Chicago gets an upgrade at an important position, and saves 3 million in cap space. Toronto deals their best D, making very affordable salary, for a defenseman making almost twice as much. The result directly affects the cap situation. For compensation of that, they also receive a 1st rounder (likely to be a very late one) and Kyle Beach, their top prospect.

Quite honestly, I just don't see any other team in the league taking that horrid contract except the Leafs. Some might call Toronto crazy for doing so, but it is essentially buying a 1st and Kyle Beach for 3 million in cap space. It's a risk I'm willing to take.
The Sharp deal I've suggested would be next summer. I'm guessing with the LTIR guys in Chicago, they have no cap problems this year.Any Kaberle deal will probably also be in the summer.

The challenge for your arguement is, many Hawks fans, and non-Leafs fans will challenge whether or not Kaberle is an upgrade on Campbell. And also, I wonder, is $3 000 000 reduction in cap space enough for Chicago, or would they need one more move?

To Hawks fans, is Beach and a 1st worth $3 000 000 in cap space.

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Old
11-12-2009, 01:00 AM
  #17
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The Sharp deal I've suggested would be next summer. I'm guessing with the LTIR guys in Chicago, they have no cap problems this year.Any Kaberle deal will probably also be in the summer.

The challenge for your arguement is, many Hawks fans, and non-Leafs fans will challenge whether or not Kaberle is an upgrade on Campbell. And also, I wonder, is $3 000 000 reduction in cap space enough for Chicago, or would they need one more move?

To Hawks fans, is Beach and a 1st worth $3 000 000 in cap space.
The only positive for Chicago would be that they'd be at least getting a similar defenseman for 3 million less, which means a lot.

The 1st and Beach, while I agree, seem to be overpayment, but anything less wont really be enough for the Leafs to pull the trigger.

Cap space is one of the most important assets in today's NHL. You make one mistake and it stays with you till the contract expires, unless by some sheer miracle you can pull a Sather-Gainey like situation.

Just from my knowledge, only 2 players who make over the 7 million mark have been successfully traded. Brad Richards and Scott Gomez. I chose not to include Danny Heatley because he asked to be traded, and he's one of the best players in the game. Brian Campbell ... I don't know if Bowman would ever be able to move him.

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11-12-2009, 01:15 AM
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There's just to many other ways to lose $3 000 000 in cap space without losing a valuable prospect, and a 1st round draft pick. Waive Sopel, trade Sharp for a draft pick, swap Huet and a 1st for a cheaper goalie, trade Kane.

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11-12-2009, 01:15 AM
  #19
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This was proposed in a different thread, but I added to it, also in the other thread talks became more about the kessel trade.. How good kaberle or cambell are.. Please none of that here... Just strictly about this proposal.

To Tor:
Campbell
Beach
1st round pick 2010
AHL'er with 3rd line potential

To Chi:
Kaberle
Wallin (or another shutdown guy)

Can Leaf's and Hawk's fans agree on this?
I'm not clear what/who you mean by AHL'er with 3rd line potential. So let's throw that out for now. You propose Wallin (or another shutdown guy). I'm not clear if you mean "or another shutdown forward" or if a shutdown dman can be substituted.

I'll make a couple assumtions and break this down and make a counter proposal.

Campbell and Beach would in effect be traded for Kaberle to make it palatable for Toronto to take on Campbell's contract. For the sake of not derailing this proposed trade, let's state that Campbell and Kaberle have comparable on ice value. Beach would give Toronto an asset that compensates for the additional Salary cap hit from Campbell.

The second part of the trade would have Toronto receive the Hawks 1st round draft pick in 2010 which further sweetens the deal for Toronto by giving Burke a first rounder in the next draft, although the pick will most likely be in the lower third in the first round. Rather than Wallin, Chicago would get White to help offset losing Beach and a 1st rounder.

So the counter proposal is:

To Toronto - Campbell ($7.1), Beach (elc) and 1st in 2010
To Chicago - Kaberle ($4.25) and White ($0.85)

It's a little late to be asking this - but can Toronto handle the extra $2.0M in cap this season?

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11-12-2009, 01:24 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
I'm not clear what/who you mean by AHL'er with 3rd line potential. So let's throw that out for now. You propose Wallin (or another shutdown guy). I'm not clear if you mean "or another shutdown forward" or if a shutdown dman can be substituted.

I'll make a couple assumtions and break this down and make a counter proposal.

Campbell and Beach would in effect be traded for Kaberle to make it palatable for Toronto to take on Campbell's contract. For the sake of not derailing this proposed trade, let's state that Campbell and Kaberle have comparable on ice value. Beach would give Toronto an asset that compensates for the additional Salary cap hit from Campbell.

The second part of the trade would have Toronto receive the Hawks 1st round draft pick in 2010 which further sweetens the deal for Toronto by giving Burke a first rounder in the next draft, although the pick will most likely be in the lower third in the first round. Rather than Wallin, Chicago would get White to help offset losing Beach and a 1st rounder.

So the counter proposal is:

To Toronto - Campbell ($7.1), Beach (elc) and 1st in 2010
To Chicago - Kaberle ($4.25) and White ($0.85)

It's a little late to be asking this - but can Toronto handle the extra $2.0M in cap this season?
Toronto has the resources to create cap space when ever they want. There is no cap issues in Toronto. I see the proposal as more interesting to the Hawks, but Leaf fans will **** losing Kaberle, easily their best player so far, and White who is arguably their 2nd best defender.

I guess it's important to know if this is intended for the deadline or sooner, or in the offseason. If it's in-season, White and his contract work, but he too is RFA and looking for a raise, so the savings may be minimal. Maybe swap the 1st for Sharp, and add Poni top make up for Sharp. It makes sure the Hawks aren't hurt too badly this year, while saving an additional 4 million (he's probably the guy to go anyway in the offseason?) I know, it's getting really big, which doesn't much happen anymore, but, again, I'm not too sure how much the Hawks need to shed this year, or next.

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11-12-2009, 01:27 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
I'm not clear what/who you mean by AHL'er with 3rd line potential. So let's throw that out for now. You propose Wallin (or another shutdown guy). I'm not clear if you mean "or another shutdown forward" or if a shutdown dman can be substituted.

I'll make a couple assumtions and break this down and make a counter proposal.

Campbell and Beach would in effect be traded for Kaberle to make it palatable for Toronto to take on Campbell's contract. For the sake of not derailing this proposed trade, let's state that Campbell and Kaberle have comparable on ice value. Beach would give Toronto an asset that compensates for the additional Salary cap hit from Campbell.

The second part of the trade would have Toronto receive the Hawks 1st round draft pick in 2010 which further sweetens the deal for Toronto by giving Burke a first rounder in the next draft, although the pick will most likely be in the lower third in the first round. Rather than Wallin, Chicago would get White to help offset losing Beach and a 1st rounder.

So the counter proposal is:

To Toronto - Campbell ($7.1), Beach (elc) and 1st in 2010
To Chicago - Kaberle ($4.25) and White ($0.85)

It's a little late to be asking this - but can Toronto handle the extra $2.0M in cap this season?
no deal... value isn't far off, but losing Kaberle for Campbell is IMO, a downgrade in terms of skill level, losing both of our puck moving d-men for 1 back will really hurt the team.

Anyone other than White you'd be interested in?

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11-12-2009, 01:27 AM
  #22
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Instead of an AHL player, Chicago should offer a 2011 3rd round draft pick (a pick we currently don't have). So...

To Chicago: Tomas Kaberle.
To Toronto: Brian Campbell, Kyle Beach, a 2010 1st round draft pick, and a 2011 3rd round draft pick.

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11-12-2009, 01:29 AM
  #23
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This will get ugly, again, just as the other two Hawks-Leafs threads did in the past 2 days.

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11-12-2009, 01:43 AM
  #24
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This will get ugly, again, just as the other two Hawks-Leafs threads did in the past 2 days.
So far the trouble makers haven't shown up. Maybe if we can consumate this deal quickly, they won't have the time to jump in and derail the whole thing.

Let's do this:

To Toronto: Campbell, Beach, 1st (2010) & 3rd (2011)
To Chicago: Kaberle, Exelbe

You call Burke, I'll get Bowman on the phone. I figure we have less than 10 minutes before the unwashed hoard shows up and then the battle will be engaged.

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11-12-2009, 01:44 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
So far the trouble makers haven't shown up. Maybe if we can consumate this deal quickly, they won't have the time to jump in and derail the whole thing.

Let's do this:

To Toronto: Campbell, Beach, 1st (2010) & 3rd (2011)
To Chicago: Kaberle, Exelbe

You call Burke, I'll get Bowman on the phone. I figure we have less than 10 minutes before the unwashed hoard shows up and then the battle will be engaged.
I am Burke, I'm thinking!
I'm not a huge fan of picks, what forward do we need to add to get Sharp, or Skille?


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