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Bluelines: Pondering the future of Holik and Messier (MERGED)

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Old
04-14-2004, 12:08 PM
  #26
Barnaby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddheyman
Amazingly Holik is exercising his right to free speech and as such is perfectly allowed to do so ... if the coach or GM don't like what he says they can fine him, sit him down or talk to him ... thats what they should be doing as his BOSS. But since we have no accountability in this organization that will never happen ...

BTW... whether Holik played well this year or not should affect whether he has the right to say it .. but yes, I am sick of hearing him talk as well.
Noone is saying that Holik should be arrested, I'm just of the belief that individual players shouldn't publicly call out the coach, and criticize his teammates.

Imagine if Sheffield started crtiticizing Torre or Steinbrenner. What if he called our Jeter or A-Rod? Maybe noone on the Rangers has that star power, but the effect is similiar.

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04-14-2004, 01:07 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by True Blue
What has he done? Granted, sometimes he was as apathetic as anyone else, but for the most part, Holik played hard. He posted his 3rd highest goals and points in his career. He wound up w/ 25 goals & 56 points. When we signed him, we said that if he gets around 60 points, everyone would be happy.
Also it should be noted that Holik was at his absolute best when used to shut down the other teams top player. The problem was that he was used in that role only a handfull of times. As Melrose said, just because you pay a guy like Forsberg, does not suddenly make him Forsberg. Jackass acquired Holik becuase he was the best, biggest, nasties shut down center in the game. And then he proceeded to try to change his game and make him into something that he is not. Playing Jagr w/ him was utterly moronic.
Holik was horribly misused. And we ALL, including Jackass, knew that Holik has a mouth on him. For the most part, Holik only said the truth and if that caused attention to be brought upon Sather's utter ineptitude, so much the better.

How much have the Devils missed Holik since he is with the Rangers ? You are right in stating that the Rangers are using him incorrectly on the 1st line. IMO he is not a team player and even though it is not his fault , he is overrated and overpaid. He is a product of a very successful 'system' that simply replaced him with someone else that achevied the same results as he did(Madden).

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04-14-2004, 01:43 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewfoot
How much have the Devils missed Holik since he is with the Rangers ? You are right in stating that the Rangers are using him incorrectly on the 1st line. IMO he is not a team player and even though it is not his fault , he is overrated and overpaid. He is a product of a very successful 'system' that simply replaced him with someone else that achevied the same results as he did(Madden).
How much do the Devils miss him? Judging that they get absolutely crushed in size whenever they cannot get the matchup that they want, I would say A LOT. They currently have no answer whatsoever for Prims when Hitch gets the last match up. Their lack of size may not have shown that much in the regular season, but IMO, it is certainly showing now.
How is he not a team player? Becuase he shoots his mouth off and calls it like it is? Is he overpaid? Absolutely. Is he overrated? I don't see how. Almost all of us agree that he is not a top line player. So is he overrated as a top line center? Yes. But if used properly as a 3rd line shutdown center, I don't see how you can say that. Yashin faints at his mere mention and Sundin is nowwhere to be seen when Holik is used against him. Joe Thorton made not a peep when Holik was used against him.
To call him simply a product of the NJ system, would to injustice to the type of player he is. IF you want to see the real HOlik, then use him as he was always intended to be used.

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04-14-2004, 02:04 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
How much do the Devils miss him? Judging that they get absolutely crushed in size whenever they cannot get the matchup that they want, I would say A LOT. They currently have no answer whatsoever for Prims when Hitch gets the last match up. Their lack of size may not have shown that much in the regular season, but IMO, it is certainly showing now.
How is he not a team player? Becuase he shoots his mouth off and calls it like it is? Is he overpaid? Absolutely. Is he overrated? I don't see how. Almost all of us agree that he is not a top line player. So is he overrated as a top line center? Yes. But if used properly as a 3rd line shutdown center, I don't see how you can say that. Yashin faints at his mere mention and Sundin is nowwhere to be seen when Holik is used against him. Joe Thorton made not a peep when Holik was used against him.
To call him simply a product of the NJ system, would to injustice to the type of player he is. IF you want to see the real HOlik, then use him as he was always intended to be used.
Maybe I am missing something , didn't the Devils win the cup last year without Holik ? As far as being a team player , he is 6-4 235 pounds and doesn't stand up for his teammates. He starts a lot of altercations and never stands up to face the challenge. His so called 'honest' remarks to the media do nothing to help the team. All they do is distance him from his teammates and make Larry Brooks smile. How hard is it to shutdown Yashin anyway ?

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Old
04-14-2004, 02:53 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Slewfoot
How hard is it to shutdown Yashin anyway ?
How hard is it to shutdown Thorton or Sundin?

"As far as being a team player , he is 6-4 235 pounds and doesn't stand up for his teammates."

So fighting is the sole method to determine if a guy is a team player or not?

"He starts a lot of altercations and never stands up to face the challenge."

So too do quite a lot of other players. THere are those that fight and those that don't. Agitating and not fighting is an art practiced by lots of players.

"His so called 'honest' remarks to the media do nothing to help the team. All they do is distance him from his teammates"

What teamates are distanced from him? And his remarks do help the team when they call Sather's utter ineptitude into public light. Saying that the team is the worst fundementally the worst in the league is the truth.

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Old
04-14-2004, 02:57 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewfoot
Maybe I am missing something , didn't the Devils win the cup last year without Holik ? As far as being a team player , he is 6-4 235 pounds and doesn't stand up for his teammates. He starts a lot of altercations and never stands up to face the challenge. His so called 'honest' remarks to the media do nothing to help the team. All they do is distance him from his teammates and make Larry Brooks smile. How hard is it to shutdown Yashin anyway ?
Holik has definately played hard enough to warrant respect and admiration from us fans. Maybe not $45 million worth, but he has done everything that has been asked from him. He's chipped in his part offensively and if Sather and his coaches would utilize him properly he could have been even more usefull to this club. Yes, he has trailed off in later part of seasons but seriously, who the hell wouldn't when there is nothing left to play for?? The fact is that Bobby has been stating the same mantra that many of us here have been saying for years. Why is in not acceptable for him to state the same critisisms of this team that we, the fans, have been stating also? He is the only one with enough balls to publicly say what the rest of us are really thinking. I see nothing wrong with this, and personally if I were Dolan or Glen and my $45 million man was demanding changes than I would listen up. The one area that I can fault Holik for is that he never stood up for himself or his teammates by dropping the gloves, like during that fatefull Philly game. But to be honest, he had the same way when he was a Devil so I cant really expect him to just change his game in that degree. IMO that is the reason we need a heavyweight like Grenier but that is another debate in itself.

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Old
04-14-2004, 03:48 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
How hard is it to shutdown Thorton or Sundin?

"As far as being a team player , he is 6-4 235 pounds and doesn't stand up for his teammates."

So fighting is the sole method to determine if a guy is a team player or not?

"He starts a lot of altercations and never stands up to face the challenge."

So too do quite a lot of other players. THere are those that fight and those that don't. Agitating and not fighting is an art practiced by lots of players.

"His so called 'honest' remarks to the media do nothing to help the team. All they do is distance him from his teammates"

What teamates are distanced from him? And his remarks do help the team when they call Sather's utter ineptitude into public light. Saying that the team is the worst fundementally the worst in the league is the truth.

There is no sense in continuing this debate. You obviously think highly of Holik , and I obviously do not. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

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Old
04-14-2004, 03:51 PM
  #33
Barnaby
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Holik is what he is.

A very good 3rd line center.

Unfortunately for him greater money brings greater expectations. That whole coaching thing doesn't help either :/

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Old
04-14-2004, 09:14 PM
  #34
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Agree, disagree, agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnaby
Holik is what he is.

A very good 3rd line center.

Unfortunately for him greater money brings greater expectations. That whole coaching thing doesn't help either :/

He's a very very good 3rd line center than can step up to the 2nd line occassionally and competently.

I didn't expect him to be anymore than what he was while in NJ and for those that expected somethign else, don't blame Holik that you didn't get what you expected. Holik was, who Holik is. Those that had set standards for a 31 year old player higher than what he's established already is a little off in their thinking.

And yes, the coaching was atrocious all year long.

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