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Very good article about Gainey

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Old
11-12-2009, 11:41 AM
  #26
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It's not far-fetched that someone might have made that off-hand comment.

It's still bad journalism to 1- imply that this one incident clearly demonstrates total incompetence from Montreal's scouting department and 2- to relate a secondhand story with no information as to where it comes from, no information as to who it involves, no verification (and indeed, no way to verify it), no details, nothing.

I particularly insist on the second point. That is reporting by hearsay. That is just plain bad journalism.
The comment was made near a Perron family member....seems to me that's where it comes from. I didn't think it needed more details.

As far as implying how bad the drafting is, well, let's say that Labbé has the HFitis. When our team plays great, it's "1993", when they're bad, it's Taylor Hall.....So in Labbé's case, since MaxPac and most of our youngsters have all the difficulties in the world, somewhere else, the other youngsters, in particularly that one (Perron) is doing fine after a terrible start. You might not like that kind of journalism and that's fine, still we can't define what journalism is based on what we like to hear.

I heard Jean-Charles Lajoie at L'Attaque à Cinq yesterday saying how Timmins did great NOT to pick Perron 'cause of his attitude and how it would have been a circus with him. While I don't agree, I can assure that while 99% of the posters would spit on Lajoie if they would see him, chances are they would have "suddenly" find him great for once.....Why? 'Cause the journalists are just as great as the opinion you have on the subject they're discussing. And the other example is Mathias Brunet. A guy that was adored on this board and then totally put with the "others" journalists after his Russian tape incident. While we could or couldn't agree that it wasn't his best day, people were not saying how he missed the boat on that one but saying how HE was just like the others......but then since then he suddenly is fine again 'cause of the time he is behind what Timmins does. I'd be surprise to know how they think of him now since Brunet wouldn't put Gainey on his top 10 of GM's, but more between 15 and 20. Does he suddenly suck again, or does he just happen to have a different opinion?

Going back to Labbé, if he would have had that info, what would you have preferred him to say? Nothing, name the family member, or get a quote from Timmins himself?

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11-12-2009, 11:42 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Here is another article from this morning,our good friend Rejean is back!!

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/opinions/c...nouvelles-.php
Let's not tell him what we already lost our 2nd round pick in 2010 for Lang....he'd come back with another article.....We have Pateryn now to "save" us from good old Tremblay.

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11-12-2009, 11:52 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Let's not tell him what we already lost our 2nd round pick in 2010 for Lang....he'd come back with another article.....We have Pateryn now to "save" us from good old Tremblay.
WS, kinda off topic but do you know if we still have our 7th rounder in 2010?

I know for sure we have:

1st
2nd
4th
5th

And I know we dealt our 7th as part of the Kemp trade, but it was conditional I believe.

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11-12-2009, 11:54 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
WS, kinda off topic but do you know if we still have our 7th rounder in 2010?

I know for sure we have:

1st
2nd
4th
5th

And I know we dealt our 7th as part of the Kemp trade, but it was conditional I believe.
Was absolutely conditional....but conditional to what? Probably from another contract which he didn't have so I will be expecting to have a 7th.

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11-12-2009, 11:54 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
WS, kinda off topic but do you know if we still have our 7th rounder in 2010?

I know for sure we have:

1st
2nd
4th
5th

And I know we dealt our 7th as part of the Kemp trade, but it was conditional I believe.
That's not many picks,if we are out of the playoffs at the deadline I hope we can add a couple of picks for some guys that won't be back

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11-12-2009, 11:57 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
That's not many picks,if we are out of the playoffs at the deadline I hope we can add a couple of picks for some guys that won't be back
Next 2 years at the draft is the only reason why I would be a Bruins fan.....I'll tell you, that will be incredible days for whoever loves the draft like I do.

Okay 'enuff loving....

As far as we are concerned, I just don't see it. Even picks, I don't see who would be providing interesting picks especially in the first 2 rounds.

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11-12-2009, 11:59 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As far as we are concerned, I just don't see it. Even picks, I don't see who would be providing interesting picks especially in the first 2 rounds.
2010 seems pretty deep on top end talent though. Maybe not as deep as a whole compared to last year. But I think the first 2 rounds are going to pretty damn deep for talent. I just hope we keep our first 2 picks.

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11-12-2009, 12:00 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Next 2 years at the draft is the only reason why I would be a Bruins fan.....I'll tell you, that will be incredible days for whoever loves the draft like I do.

Okay 'enuff loving....

As far as we are concerned, I just don't see it. Even picks, I don't see who would be providing interesting picks especially in the first 2 rounds.
Yup Boston has lots of picks coming up,they were even able to get Tampa's 2nd.The next couple of years against the bruins will not be easy

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11-12-2009, 12:01 PM
  #34
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Montreal hockey journalism at its best.

I predict a "big/explosive controversial revelation" from the media during the Olympic Games break if the Habs still play for .500 (or worse).

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Old
11-12-2009, 12:03 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by dysonlu View Post
Montreal hockey journalism at its best.

I predict a "big/explosive controversial revelation" from the media during the Olympic Games break if the Habs still play for .500 (or worse).
To be very honest I like Gainey but if we ain't playing 500 at the Olympic break I just don't see how he will still be in charge.If we are going to miss the playoffs and the owners want someone knew taking care of the GM job he will want him in place at the deadline IMO

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Old
11-12-2009, 12:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So you might not choose to believe Labbé if you want and you might definately not choose to believe me either. But what I've told this board about the 2 stories as far as the 2 NHL prospects are concerned is true and coming directly from Timmins. Mind you we still doesn't know for sure how those 2 prospects will come but frankly, it surely does like those 2 guys will end up pretty good hockey players.

And then, if you don't believe me, Labbé or any other sources, well maybe you'd believe HF and that famous Timmins quote in 2007, saying how satisfied he was with the depth at center with.....



http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article..._draft_review/

So with quotes like that, with what he told me about the 2 NHL prospects, with the list we saw this year at the draft (thought way early too tell), and with the infamous and great "It's an unexact science", how is that too far fetched to think that he or somebody else would have made that kind of comment about Perron?
Whitesnake,....Sorry if I'm missing the boat on something (I'm a bit sleep deprived these days) but what is this story about "2 NHL prospects" that you've referred to a couple of times?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Let's not tell him what we already lost our 2nd round pick in 2010 for Lang....he'd come back with another article.....We have Pateryn now to "save" us from good old Tremblay.
Tremblay doesn't write many hockey articles these days where he doesn't make some sort of glaring error or misrepresents facts. I don't know if it's laziness or senility.


Last edited by Schooner Guy: 11-12-2009 at 12:55 PM.
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Old
11-12-2009, 12:10 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Here is another article from this morning,our good friend Rejean is back!!
Same old same old content, but I found it interesting he felt the need to divest himself from his usual condescending tone and insist that he really doesn't have any personal beef with Gainey and he's really pointing out the "disaster" for the benefit of the fans...

Methinks he doth protest too much, however.

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11-12-2009, 12:10 PM
  #38
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What pick did the Pens receive when you guys drafted the Finnish goalie with the final pick of the 2009 draft? Was it a 6th? So, potentially, the Pens own the Habs' 6th and 7th in 2010, though the 7th probably will be yours because the conditions were probably met already with regards to T.J. Kemp?

Also, thanks for the info on the Malone-Scuderi for Higgins-Rivet trade that never happened. That's interesting stuff.

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11-12-2009, 12:10 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
To be very honest I like Gainey but if we ain't playing 500 at the Olympic break I just don't see how he will still be in charge.If we are going to miss the playoffs and the owners want someone knew taking care of the GM job he will want him in place at the deadline IMO
I don't see Molson pulling the plug on him until after the season (if it happens). New coach, numerous new players, and no Markov....gotta give the science experiment until at least the end of the season. Gainey has been quite responsible with draft picks and prospects except last year when expectations were high due to the centennial celebrations. Also, the selection of available GM's is usually better in the offseason.

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11-12-2009, 12:16 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
To be very honest I like Gainey but if we ain't playing 500 at the Olympic break I just don't see how he will still be in charge.If we are going to miss the playoffs and the owners want someone knew taking care of the GM job he will want him in place at the deadline IMO
I think most of us like Gainey as a person, and on paper he has some great qualities to be a GM in Montreal. But not questionning his record since 2003 would be a major case of denial. I agree that the owners would want someone new asap in order to take control of the trade deadline and the draft, and I wouldn't be against it.

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11-12-2009, 12:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Here is another article from this morning,our good friend Rejean is back!!

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/opinions/c...nouvelles-.php
His previous one was even better. He accused others of being hypocrites because they don't want NHL players to have priority over pregnant women and children for the H1N1 shots.

Réjean.... calling others hypocrites. I nearly had a mental breakdown from laughing too hard.

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11-12-2009, 12:20 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
The comment was made near a Perron family member....seems to me that's where it comes from. I didn't think it needed more details.
He said the story was told him by a "colleague". If that colleague himself got it from the Perron family, then it becomes thirdhand rather than secondhand -- the case becomes even worse.

This is not good journalism in the sense that it is factual, verified information. This is, to put it plainly, gossip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As far as implying how bad the drafting is, well, let's say that Labbé has the HFitis.
Labbe is a fine football analyst, with emphasis on the word, "football". His hockey opinions don't seem to be particularly sophisticated or well-informed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And the other example is Mathias Brunet. A guy that was adored on this board and then totally put with the "others" journalists after his Russian tape incident.
Brunet is a good analyst, but scoops aren't his forte (remember the Hossa glove, too?) He says enough good stuff that I like him, a lot, I consider him the best analyst in Montreal media in fact. That doesn't mean I'm obligated to agree with everything he says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Going back to Labbé, if he would have had that info, what would you have preferred him to say? Nothing, name the family member, or get a quote from Timmins himself?
Nothing would have been nice. If he got it from a fellow journalist, let them report after making the appropriate verifications. If this is thirdhand, this is even worse.

That quote is pure gossip. If he's running a gossip column, that's fine, but advertise it a such.

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Old
11-12-2009, 12:25 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
I don't see Molson pulling the plug on him until after the season (if it happens). New coach, numerous new players, and no Markov....gotta give the science experiment until at least the end of the season. Gainey has been quite responsible with draft picks and prospects except last year when expectations were high due to the centennial celebrations. Also, the selection of available GM's is usually better in the offseason.
I agree about waiting, but I don't agree about the science experiment needing some more time.

Gainey is responsible for more than contract signings, coaches and trades; he is fully responsible for pro and amateur scouting and player development. The habs have been know for years for having a below average pro-scouting team and now a lot of questions are raised about their amateur scouting. If we keep Gainey, he will have to look in his backyard and make changes, ideally in time for the draft and free agency. What about the Rangers, 9 new players and still some success? Oh right, they have Lunqvist. Oh wait, they drafted him. I don't like the Rangers but they were an easy example. We shouldn't deny our problems. And we should keep in mind that Gainey is responsible for all hockey operations.

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Old
11-12-2009, 12:51 PM
  #44
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Are you kidding? Scouts say that all the time about all kinds of players. I guess on average, they're right more often than wrong, because more players don't make it than make it, and there are some obvious visual cues that should let anybody make a better-than-50/50 guess on how they'll pan out. But still. Scouts ARE opinionated.

And David Perron in particular was a very hot-button prospect who rubbed a lot of scouts the wrong way. Part of the problem might have been that they saw him at the wrong time, while he was still finding his way. He's a player who took longer, and still carried some bad habits even when he was starting to come onto the scouting radar, and a disproportionate number of scouts hated him. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear any given scout dismissed him.

It then becomes the job of the scouting director to weigh the voices of everybody who fed input on the player, try to filter out the outliers, and then see where the player sits overall. I imagine we had more than one scout with an opinion about Perron. I'm sure he wasn't completely dismissed in the overall analysis as a result.
Oh trust me, I'm absolutely certain many scouts speak like that. All I'm saying is that I think it's the wrong attitude to have towards prospects.

To me, a scout should focus on a prospect's strengths and weaknesses and whether or not those weaknesses are things he can improve on or not. Every single prospect has flaws, it's how they improve on those flaws that seperate them from the rest of their draft class and ultimately dictate what kind of an NHL career they will have.

Everyone can improve. Completely writing off a prospect is just stupid to me.

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11-12-2009, 01:57 PM
  #45
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Oh trust me, I'm absolutely certain many scouts speak like that. All I'm saying is that I think it's the wrong attitude to have towards prospects.

To me, a scout should focus on a prospect's strengths and weaknesses and whether or not those weaknesses are things he can improve on or not. Every single prospect has flaws, it's how they improve on those flaws that seperate them from the rest of their draft class and ultimately dictate what kind of an NHL career they will have.

Everyone can improve. Completely writing off a prospect is just stupid to me.
The way I see it, the scout on the prowl doesn't really get to write off a prospect anyway. He can think he'll never make it, and write the player up that way. But the guy on top (or some committee of guys on top) figure out his spot on the list (or finalize his exclusion from it).

Perron is a cool case though of a player who really seemed to put a lot of stuff together in a relatively short time, considering. Benoit Pouliot was way up on our list apparently in 2005, and he sure hasn't been able to pull off the same thing. Thing is, there are so many prospects out there, though, you have to find ways to narrow it down sometimes, and I don't mind writing off some guys. Imperfect filters. Anyway, if you rank Perron #58 on your list because you worry about some of his traits, you might just as well be writing him off, because you're not going to get him with the #58 pick.

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11-12-2009, 02:05 PM
  #46
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lol... the part about Perron is completely retarded. We're not doing well because our scout can't see Perron's talent? For one, it's a single scout and secondly there's probably a bunch of other scouts who thought the same. Scouts will have very different opinions on the same player. I guess all the other teams suck too cuz they missed out on Zetterberg, Markov, etc..
HOFer Luc Robitaille

Every scout in the league but one sucked on that one... repeatedly

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11-12-2009, 03:20 PM
  #47
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HOFer Luc Robitaille

Every scout in the league but one sucked on that one... repeatedly
Pat Burns was Luc's coach in his drafting year. He told on CKAC how he was contacted by one of the Hab's scouts on the potential values of his team and how he tried to sell him Robitaille....The scout smirked and told him "with his speed this guy will never play in the NHL".(Pat refused to name the Habs scout btw - he did name however the Kings' scout that actually believed him and came to watch a few games before drafting Robitaille).

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11-12-2009, 03:26 PM
  #48
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Pat Burns was Luc's coach in his drafting year. He told on CKAC how he was contacted by one of the Hab's scouts on the potential values of his team and how he tried to sell him Robitaille....The scout smirked and told him "with his speed this guy will never play in the NHL".(Pat refused to name the Habs scout btw - he did name however the Kings' scout that actually believed him and came to watch a few games before drafting Robitaille).
Robitaille is a beautiful story. But he was also a 9th round pick and all other teams missed him. If the Kings had been so high on him, why not pick him earlier??? Because they wasn't very high on him too...

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11-12-2009, 03:31 PM
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Robitaille is a beautiful story. But he was also a 9th round pick and all other teams missed him. If the Kings had been so high on him, why not pick him earlier??? Because they wasn't very high on him too...
Kings selected Tom Glavine(the pitcher) in the 4th round 69th overall that year

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11-12-2009, 03:37 PM
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Kings selected Tom Glavine(the pitcher) in the 4th round 69th overall that year
For a good reason, because he was a heck of player...
http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1984/84069.html

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