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Rangers among the five deepest FO's in the NHL

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Old
11-15-2009, 02:57 PM
  #26
morffin
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
But in doing so you were ignoring his larger point - one he made across several posts, including the one I quoted - which is that we haven't drafted a star-caliber forward. The excuse that one can only get stud forwards in the top 3 is merely that: an excuse. Such players are all over the league, and as I noted, a number have been available to the Rangers who, as you point out, haven't had a #1 overall.

Again, crediting what Sather has done right is appropriate. Ignoring where he comes up average or worse is merely taking the opposite POV of those who scream that he caused this team's destruction.
Read the original post .... the Rangers had a joke of a scouting system until a couple of years ago .. perhaps the worst in prof. sports. We are just starting to see the results of the revamped scouting system Sather and Gordi C have put in place...Renney as well.

Let's see what these last few drafts will produce until we close the book on Sather... I like what I am seeing these last few drafts. AA and Grachev look like winners to me. With more coming.

Im not giving Sather a pass for his first 6-7 years here..I was the head conductor on the Fire Sather bandwagon those years ... but he has set up the org. for long term success with the work he has done since the lockout.

The salary cap is the best thing that has ever happened to this franchise. I has forced them to focus on scouting and player development... for the first time in my life.....and with the Rangers financial resources ... resources that were pissed away on washed up aging stars... the Rangers scouting and player dev. will make them a force for years.

It took Sather 7 years to get his act together but it seems like he has .. so people can keep hating him and focus on his many mistakes ... or focus on what is happening now with this org... a great scouting team... great player dev... solid farm and one of the youngest teams in the NHL..

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11-15-2009, 03:07 PM
  #27
Carl Hagelins Flow
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Look at it this way... we don't ****ing tank our seasons for draft picks like some other organizations do (cough Pitt cough) and because of that, we end up finishing outside of the playoffs but close enough that our draft picks aren't great for the first round.

Sure, if we had multiple blown #1 overall picks then you can say where is our Tavares, Ovechkin, Crosby but that's apples and oranges when we haven't gotten those #1 picks.

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Originally Posted by morffin View Post

The salary cap is the best thing that has ever happened to this franchise. I has forced them to focus on scouting and player development... for the first time in my life.....and with the Rangers financial resources ... resources that were pissed away on washed up aging stars... the Rangers scouting and player dev. will make them a force for years.
You make a good point here. Instead of throwing our massive bucket of $$ at washed-up vets, we just use our financial advantage to get the best minds working for us. Never really thought about it that way but it must be a huge desire to work in NY if you're a smart guy because you can make some huge salaries in this organization

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11-15-2009, 06:28 PM
  #28
morffin
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Originally Posted by BleedsBlueforNYR View Post
Look at it this way... we don't ****ing tank our seasons for draft picks like some other organizations do (cough Pitt cough) and because of that, we end up finishing outside of the playoffs but close enough that our draft picks aren't great for the first round.

Sure, if we had multiple blown #1 overall picks then you can say where is our Tavares, Ovechkin, Crosby but that's apples and oranges when we haven't gotten those #1 picks.



You make a good point here. Instead of throwing our massive bucket of $$ at washed-up vets, we just use our financial advantage to get the best minds working for us. Never really thought about it that way but it must be a huge desire to work in NY if you're a smart guy because you can make some huge salaries in this organization
yep ... and that has really just begun a couple of years ago.

Scary how good this org can be if it gets it's act together... 2nd most valuable franchise in the lg...put those resources in the right place and we are set for long term glory.

Glad so many people here get my point.

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11-15-2009, 09:31 PM
  #29
dedalus
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Originally Posted by morffin View Post
Read the original post .... the Rangers had a joke of a scouting system until a couple of years ago
That's the same joke of a scouting system that drafted the club's only superstar of the past decade, yes? I think we all hope that Sather's current collection of scouts can come up with a Henrik Lundqvist-caliber player at forward, but it's not happened yet.

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Originally Posted by morffin View Post
We are just starting to see the results of the revamped scouting system Sather and Gordi C have put in place...Renney as well.
Oh I agree. But your statement here begs the question: if we're only just starting to see this stuff, why are you already crediting the staff for setting up the organization for the next decade? I think the latter statement depends entirely on the quality of a group of players who've yet to show they can even play in the NHL much less be impact forwards. Let's face it, the current Ranger collection of forwards only looks good because it's been heavily augmented by outsiders, and only two players since the 2004 draft are current NHLers.

But based on those two and some good work by others in the AHL, you're prepared to say Sather's recent staff has set us up for the next decade?

Put differently, you say in one post, "Let's see what these last few drafts will produce," but you say in the next "we are set for long term glory."

Well which is it? If we're still in a "let's see" mode, it seems to me nothing more than wishful thinking to say we're also set for "longterm glory." How can we be set for longterm glory if we're still waiting to see what we have?

For myself, I'll wait to see what the drafts actually turn into before I credit the drafting, not least because I've been down this road before. It wasn't so long ago that Dawes, Immonen, Korpikoski, Prucha, and Baranka were going to be the centerpieces of our team for the next decade.


Last edited by dedalus: 11-15-2009 at 09:38 PM.
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Old
11-15-2009, 10:20 PM
  #30
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The scouting system i am talking about has only been in place 2 or 3 years and the results are already showing...MDZ = exh A

Im crediting Sather and staff for the change in attitude and culture at MSG ... for the first time in my life this org has a good scouting system and seems determined to build though the draft.

No one ever said Korpi and the rest would be stars .. we were one of the lowest rated minor lg programs in the lg for decades... the Rangers org. was the laughing stock of the NHL.
We are ranked 3rd now by Hockey Futures. How do you think that drastic improvement was made? THIRD!..I've been a Ranger fan for over 40 years and I cant think of a time when this team wasnt in the bottom half as far as prospects were concerned.

We are set for the next decade .. the money pumped into scouting and player dev. is a first for this org... and it will set them up for long term success. I just hope they stick with it.

You can keep focusing on the past and continue to expect the worst...but i really think we are on the cusp of the Golden Age of Rangers hockey... just give it 2 or 3 years....wait till the money and resources put into scouting and player dev. kicks in...and Im not some pie in the sky freak..I went to my first game at MSG in 1969 ... seen a lot of awful hockey in that building...seen a lot of bad draft picks and seen a lot of rare finds in the draft get traded.. but what I see now is an org that has the financial clout to build a powerhouse scouting and player dev. team and for the first time in my life the desire to do so.

Im also proud of the pride Sather and the rest have shown in the Blue sweater and the City ... no tanking... no Pitt/Caps and Islander bullsh!t of throwing away seasons for a quick fix .. these guys are doing it the right way.


Last edited by morffin: 11-15-2009 at 10:49 PM.
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Old
11-16-2009, 12:25 AM
  #31
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The cap keeps them from spendiing the money on players so they ought to spend it in every other way to improve the team.

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11-16-2009, 03:12 AM
  #32
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Teams like Detroit, NJ have had their homegrown core for years. They've had a nice passage of generations - from Stevie Y/Brett Hull to Datsyuk/Zetterberg; from Scott Stevens/Nieds to Elias/Parise... We, on the other hand, have begun to get our core so very recently. It's sad. And we are still led by hired guns, such as Gaborik, Prospal, Drury...

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11-16-2009, 12:42 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by morffin View Post
The scouting system i am talking about has only been in place 2 or 3 years and the results are already showing...MDZ = exh A
Right. That’s what I said. You are declaring a Golden Age based on two players – although I see I was being generous. You’re actually declaring a Golden Age based on one.

For myself, I’ll wait to see what the developmental program develops before I call it a success. That said, I understand that others don’t wish to wait for the actual results of that program. They’d rather declare a Golden Age based on AHLers and junior hockey prospects. That’s fine for others; I just think it’s silly to offer such statements based on a data set of one player.

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Originally Posted by morffin View Post
Im crediting Sather and staff for the change in attitude and culture at MSG
Meh. I’d be more inclined to agree with the post wherein you were grateful for the new CBA and the cap. I wish I could credit Sather further for this change in attitude, but he had no choice in the matter. The CBA dictated his change in attitude, which is what you yourself said earlier.

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Originally Posted by morffin View Post
No one ever said Korpi and the rest would be stars
Clearly you don’t recall when Immonen and Korpikoski were going to be our second line for the next decade; nor do you recall when Prucha was going to be our perennial 30-35 goal scorer; nor do you recall when Dawes was going to be a PLAYAAAA! (If you can still find it, go look at the Anaheim game thread from just last year. Note what was said of Dawes when he undressed Pronger on one play.)

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Originally Posted by morffin View Post
I've been a Ranger fan for over 40 years and I cant think of a time when this team wasnt in the bottom half as far as prospects were concerned.
Your memory is short. The first two years after we drafted Brendl and Lundmark we were considered among the best. There are other periods. I’ll pull up my back issues of THN when I get home if you’d like.

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We are set for the next decade
I thought we were “waiting to see.” That’s what you wrote before.


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Originally Posted by morffin View Post
what I see now is an org that has the financial clout to build a powerhouse scouting and player dev. team and for the first time in my life the desire to do so.
1. They’ve always had that financial clout. That’s nothing to do with “now.”

2. You think this is the first time in your life the Ranger organization has had the desire to build a good scouting staff and player development program? Really? So, Smith, Patrick … those guys didn’t WANT good scouting staffs or player development programs. Is that honestly your claim here?

If it is, I’d like some evidence, please. Such a statement runs SO far against common sense and the norms of business and sports that I think it needs support … and a lot of it.

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Originally Posted by morffin View Post
You can keep focusing on the past
You misunderstand. I’m focusing on what IS not what WAS. And you’re focusing on what you hope will be. In neither of our cases is this about the past. My focus is on the present; yours is on what you believe to be the future.

As I said above, I understand where your head’s at. I simply disagree with the philosophy.

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11-16-2009, 02:08 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
That is one of the most incorrect and borderline idiotic assessments of what happened to our organization I have ever read. When Sather took over we had missed the playoffs 3 years and had a team with no quality young players and no quality prospects. For 7 drafts before he was canned, including 4 top 10 picks, we got one impact player, Marc Savard. Maybe Kim Johnsson.

Sather might have been sitting on his thumb for a few years, but we were already at rock bottom. To think that we were anything short of a league-wide joke when Sather got here is ludicrous.
You are now saying that if someone inherits a bad team and does nothing about it for many years he is blameless. Wrong. Dead wrong. Couldn't be more wrong. It shows an utter cluelessness of what Sather is and is not responsible for.

The man in charge has been the joke. The previous regime won a Cup. They ended up paying for it but you can't take that away. Sometimes I think that people forget what the job of a GM is. It's to win the Cup. That's it. Nothing else.

Now I'm supposed to fawn over a decade of incompetency because they MIGHT get better someday in the future. How low can you set the bar for a person's job performance?

This team, even with Gaborik performing at peak form, is ordinary, at best. If Gaborik goes down, with that contract, something far from out of the question, the organization will be hamstrung for another 5 years. It won't matter, though, because there will always be simpletons around telling us what a great job the head idiot has done because he isn't as horribly incompetent as he used to be.

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Old
11-16-2009, 02:44 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You are now saying that if someone inherits a bad team and does nothing about it for many years he is blameless. Wrong. Dead wrong. Couldn't be more wrong. It shows an utter cluelessness of what Sather is and is not responsible for.

The man in charge has been the joke. The previous regime won a Cup. They ended up paying for it but you can't take that away. Sometimes I think that people forget what the job of a GM is. It's to win the Cup. That's it. Nothing else.

Now I'm supposed to fawn over a decade of incompetency because they MIGHT get better someday in the future. How low can you set the bar for a person's job performance?

This team, even with Gaborik performing at peak form, is ordinary, at best. If Gaborik goes down, with that contract, something far from out of the question, the organization will be hamstrung for another 5 years. It won't matter, though, because there will always be simpletons around telling us what a great job the head idiot has done because he isn't as horribly incompetent as he used to be.
At no point did I say he is blameless. The laundry list of idiotic moves Sather has made is long and has been mentioned on these boards ad nauseum. You will be hard pressed to find someone that followed the team the first few years of his tenure that did not think he should be fired.

But that was not really my point. My point was that he was handed a team that was already "destroyed". It was already "pulverized". We were out of the playoffs three years. There were no good young players. There were no good prospects. The team was headed nowhere and had zero future in sight. Sather did not inherit a team with a young Brian Leetch and Mike Richter. No Amonte in the system. Hell I doubt we even had anyone that was as young and good as Patrick or Turcotte.

It was Smiths POST cup moves that sunk this team. Who had a decent career NHL from the mid-to-late 90's drafts? Johnsson? Savard? Malhotra maybe? In a half dozen drafts thats who is left, the best of them traded away. That was why he was fired, that was why the team was a joke when Sather took over.

It seems people will bend in any direction to rewrite history so Sather was the one who made us a laughing stock. Sather has made his own messes, no need to wrongfully pin something else on him.

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Old
11-16-2009, 03:10 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 View Post
Teams like Detroit, NJ have had their homegrown core for years. They've had a nice passage of generations - from Stevie Y/Brett Hull to Datsyuk/Zetterberg; from Scott Stevens/Nieds to Elias/Parise... We, on the other hand, have begun to get our core so very recently. It's sad. And we are still led by hired guns, such as Gaborik, Prospal, Drury...
On the other hand, 4 of 6 defencemen and on the team and the starting goalie come from within the system. There are a lot more good defencemen in the system, too.

As far as the forwards are concerned, I expect the Rangers to be led by imports for a while to come. It looks like we are counting on Grachev, Stepan and Krieder as the only potential offensive leaders, and Stepan and Krieder are a long way off yet.

Right now, I'd say we look a lot more like Calgary than Detroit, but the Rangers' system is still a work in progress.

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11-16-2009, 05:48 PM
  #37
morffin
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Right. That’s what I said. You are declaring a Golden Age based on two players – although I see I was being generous. You’re actually declaring a Golden Age based on one.

For myself, I’ll wait to see what the developmental program develops before I call it a success. That said, I understand that others don’t wish to wait for the actual results of that program. They’d rather declare a Golden Age based on AHLers and junior hockey prospects. That’s fine for others; I just think it’s silly to offer such statements based on a data set of one player.


Meh. I’d be more inclined to agree with the post wherein you were grateful for the new CBA and the cap. I wish I could credit Sather further for this change in attitude, but he had no choice in the matter. The CBA dictated his change in attitude, which is what you yourself said earlier.


Clearly you don’t recall when Immonen and Korpikoski were going to be our second line for the next decade; nor do you recall when Prucha was going to be our perennial 30-35 goal scorer; nor do you recall when Dawes was going to be a PLAYAAAA! (If you can still find it, go look at the Anaheim game thread from just last year. Note what was said of Dawes when he undressed Pronger on one play.)


Your memory is short. The first two years after we drafted Brendl and Lundmark we were considered among the best. There are other periods. I’ll pull up my back issues of THN when I get home if you’d like.


I thought we were “waiting to see.” That’s what you wrote before.



1. They’ve always had that financial clout. That’s nothing to do with “now.”

2. You think this is the first time in your life the Ranger organization has had the desire to build a good scouting staff and player development program? Really? So, Smith, Patrick … those guys didn’t WANT good scouting staffs or player development programs. Is that honestly your claim here?

If it is, I’d like some evidence, please. Such a statement runs SO far against common sense and the norms of business and sports that I think it needs support … and a lot of it.


You misunderstand. I’m focusing on what IS not what WAS. And you’re focusing on what you hope will be. In neither of our cases is this about the past. My focus is on the present; yours is on what you believe to be the future.

As I said above, I understand where your head’s at. I simply disagree with the philosophy.

NO problem... I appreciate the civil debate were having... and really like your HAL photo.

1--- always had the financial clout..read the second half of that statement...first time they are using that clout to put together a great player dev. team.

2 --- Yes I really do ..look at all the traded picks and the total lack of regard for a scouting system and farm this org. has had for decades. The Rangers scouting team...what little of it there was ... was the joke of the lg if not the entire prof. sports world...Renney and Sather changed that. All the evidence you need is the joke our player dev. had been for decades..that doesnt happen w/o crappy scouting and a total disregard for building via the draft. It does go against common sports wisdom...that is one of the reasons this franchise sucked for decades. Always looking for the quick fix. This franchise scouted /drafted and developed and most importantly KEPT ...one Hall of Famer in 20+ years of drafting.... that doesnt happen w/o a complete disregard for player dev. by the entire org.

I am looking at the present as well ... decent and young NHL team ( when have we ever been able to say that as Rangers fans ) ... and a good farm system ...rated 3rd in the lg ..a first in my lifetime... and a solid front office...all these things are new to the Rangers.

I also think youre missing my key point here...it is the fundamental change in philosophy for the franchise the last few years..I know it's because of the cap .... but it is happening and I love it.

Thanks again for keeping it polite .. I know Sather is a hot button topic with Ranger fans.

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