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#20 | New York Islanders vs. Florida Panthers | Nov 14 | 7:00p

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Old
11-15-2009, 12:14 PM
  #176
blitzkriegs
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Originally Posted by PatientlyWaiting View Post
The word terrible is not adequate enough for Gervais. There has to be an alternative solution. Get Mcdonald up here, I thought he brought a much needed physical game while logging average minutes.

Anything is better than this retread. Jesus Christ, Gervais has had his chance. We got rid of the first stooge, now get rid of the second. Send him to Ottawa, that way we can rest assured they'll never win anything with these morons on the backend.

Gervais SUCKS.
Part of a rebuild is finding out who should stick around and who should not. These players are ALLOWED to struggle to get better, worse, or plateau.

I laugh when I see these statements. It is 20 games into the season. The player is probably a 6/7, maybe a 5, yet some people think he needs to get tossed off the roster.

Look around, there are NO answers from within the organization. Some of you think BST is this gold mine of stud d prospects that should be in the NHL right now. Please...

The problem is NYI did not invest in their defense in the offseason. Now, as usual, it shows when Radek IR is, well, on the IR, Meyer is in the lineup full time, Gervais is playing more than he should, etc...

Taking out Gervais or someone else is not going to make the difference. Last year Gervais showed promise, but Sutton was horrid. This year, it is the opposite. So be it.

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11-15-2009, 12:53 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by IslesFanatic View Post
Those of you who want to dump Thompson, why? He is good at his role, which is 4th line center and Pker. He and Park were on the ice in OT. I think it was Trottier who brought it up saying that Gordon trusts them 4 on 4. Thompson is not here to score. I think he fulfills his role very well.
That fourth line has been doing a good job. The problem with them is they are a garunteed no goal on the offensive side. It is nice that they wear down the other team and work hard, but you know they can't score, so they don't pose as an immediate threat. When they are out there 4 on 4 in OT, I trust them not to give up a goal, but we all know they aren't going to score. So in OT they are kind of a waste of a line because you can't play the "not to lose" game in OT.

As for being a good PKer, the Isles are 20th in the league, not very good. I am unimpressed with Thompson on the PK because he doesn't have any talent. Without a doubt he works hard, but he can't make those special plays that Peca/Blake or Bates used to make on the PK and I don't think he ever will.

I appreciate the hard work the fourth line does every shift, it tires down the other team and gives our team a rest while not having to worry about giving up a goal, but they really are nothing special. It should not be hard to find 4th line upgrades for everyone on that line including Park. I love Park to death, but there are plenty of other Park like players in the league. They are a dime a dozen.

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11-15-2009, 01:41 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Hunter07 View Post
That fourth line has been doing a good job. The problem with them is they are a garunteed no goal on the offensive side. It is nice that they wear down the other team and work hard, but you know they can't score, so they don't pose as an immediate threat. When they are out there 4 on 4 in OT, I trust them not to give up a goal, but we all know they aren't going to score. So in OT they are kind of a waste of a line because you can't play the "not to lose" game in OT.

As for being a good PKer, the Isles are 20th in the league, not very good. I am unimpressed with Thompson on the PK because he doesn't have any talent. Without a doubt he works hard, but he can't make those special plays that Peca/Blake or Bates used to make on the PK and I don't think he ever will.

I appreciate the hard work the fourth line does every shift, it tires down the other team and gives our team a rest while not having to worry about giving up a goal, but they really are nothing special. It should not be hard to find 4th line upgrades for everyone on that line including Park. I love Park to death, but there are plenty of other Park like players in the league. They are a dime a dozen.
you saw the first goal of the game last night, correct? I don't know what you want out of a 4th line, but they're doing an above average job as a unit. Reliable defensively, on the draw, and pop in a goal every now and then. They have a role and they do it well.

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11-15-2009, 02:09 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Hunter07 View Post

As for being a good PKer, the Isles are 20th in the league, not very good. I am unimpressed with Thompson on the PK because he doesn't have any talent. Without a doubt he works hard, but he can't make those special plays that Peca/Blake or Bates used to make on the PK and I don't think he ever will.
To be fair, how many players in the league make Peca plays? He was, IMO, the best defensive forward in the league, and eaily among the elite all time. Nobody played the high point like he did, just downright dominant in his defensive reads, as dominant defensively as a Lemeiux was offensively.

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Old
11-15-2009, 02:11 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by StuDog View Post
you saw the first goal of the game last night, correct? I don't know what you want out of a 4th line, but they're doing an above average job as a unit. Reliable defensively, on the draw, and pop in a goal every now and then. They have a role and they do it well.
In my defense, I did not see last nights first goal haha, is that why there is a sudden hoorah for the 4th line?

Don't get me wrong I am happy with the job they have done so far, I don't think I said anything unreasonable. They have been real sound defensively and they work hard. My point is, there are a lot of players that can do the same thing. They are easy to find and don't cost a lot of money. I am unimpressed with the penalty kill, which is part due to lack of talent of the pkers, but also due to the poor defense we have.

For years the Isles have had a good fourth line that us here on HF have given credit to. They have done a sound job over the years, but I think that is more due to the ease of the position rather than us having outstanding players there. Just my opinion, which is probably not popular here at all.

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11-15-2009, 02:21 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Hunter07 View Post
When [the fourth line] are out there 4 on 4 in OT, I trust them not to give up a goal, but we all know they aren't going to score. So in OT they are kind of a waste of a line because you can't play the "not to lose" game in OT.
And, no doubt, the coach does not trust some of his kiddies and other vets "not to lose" the game in OT, based on making the wrong decision, poor positioning, etc., in open ice.

Thompson/Park had a superb chance in OT last night, with the former holding the puck for a prolonged time behind the Panther net.

Hockey games are typically not won, they are lost (on mistakes). That's how the coach is thinking, which (no disrespect) is a little different than the typical fan's mentality (score! score ! score!).

Believe me, having a "great" fourth line wins you nothing in this league. However, the fact that Thompson/Park see ice in Ot is indicative in great part of the coach's current lack of confidence of some of his top nine players in that situation, as much as a ringing endorsement of Thompson/Park. It's along the same lines as those who espouse playing Schremp on the powerplay....becuae he is has offensive skills. Noooooo! In the NHL, you earn icetime by proving yourself in even strength situations FIRST. Park/Thompson have. Clearly others, particularly kiddies, haven't yet.

The "little things" to look for in this team's development, along the lines of the ability to close out games: When their "top players" are trustworthy to garner the most icetime in OT. It will come, in time.


Last edited by Trottier: 11-15-2009 at 02:28 PM.
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11-15-2009, 02:23 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipster Doofus View Post
To be fair, how many players in the league make Peca plays? He was, IMO, the best defensive forward in the league, and eaily among the elite all time. Nobody played the high point like he did, just downright dominant in his defensive reads, as dominant defensively as a Lemeiux was offensively.
Hipster, you bring up a fair point. You may be overstating Peca's defensive ability a bit (I can think of a handful of players who were equal or better than Peca defensively, but only one who was as good as Mario offensively), but the point is yes Peca was in the upper echelon of defensive forwards. Plus Blake, Peca, & Bates were not 4th liners, so they should have more skill than our fourth line.

Which may bring up the fair point, why is the fourth line killing penalties? Thompson and Jackman have the work ethic, but don't have the speed or talent for the PK at the NHL level. Park is a decent PKer, but the other two IMO are not. They don't possess the talent to do the job that needs to be done, especially considering how bad our D is.

So I guess my problem with the fourth line lies more within the fact that they shouldn't be killing penalties and I would like my fourth liners to be good PKers.

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11-15-2009, 02:48 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
And, no doubt, the coach does not trust some of his kiddies and other vets "not to lose" the game in OT, based on making the wrong decision, poor positioning, etc., in open ice.

Thompson/Park had a superb chance in OT last night, with the former holding the puck for a prolonged time behind the Panther net.

Hockey games are typically not won, they are lost (on mistakes). That's how the coach is thinking, which (no disrespect) is a little different than the typical fan's mentality (score! score ! score!).

Believe me, having a "great" fourth line wins you nothing in this league. However, the fact that Thompson/Park see ice in Ot is indicative in great part of the coach's current lack of confidence of some of his top nine players in that situation, as much as a ringing endorsement of Thompson/Park. It's along the same lines as those who espouse playing Schremp on the powerplay....becuae he is has offensive skills. Noooooo! In the NHL, you earn icetime by proving yourself in even strength situations FIRST. Park/Thompson have. Clearly others, particularly kiddies, haven't yet.

The "little things" to look for in this team's development, along the lines of the ability to close out games: When their "top players" are trustworthy to garner the most icetime in OT. It will come, in time.
First of all, I don't take the "score score score" line as offensive, I know exactly what you are trying to say.

The part I put in bold has a lot of the points I am trying to make. Don't get me wrong, I am real pleased with how the fourth line has played, but they are being relied upon way too much. As you said, it could be due to lack of confidence in other players (which I tend to think is the reason), but what ever the reason, they are relied upon way too often.

As you also said, the fourth line developed a quality chance in OT, but didn't finish. That is the fourth lines MO and that is why they are fourth line players. They all have glaring deficiencies in their respective game, but they do some things at a high level. In this case they skate hard, win draws, and go into the corners hard, which is extremely valuable. It tires down the other team, gives our team a break, and reduces the likeliness of a goal against. Which is why we have a good fourth line.

The problem here is the minutes and time of game when the fourth line is in. They have no business being in a 4 on 4 OT where you have nothing to lose. You can't play not to lose in over time, especially with our shootout record. Thompson & Jackman also have no business being on the PK due to their lack of speed and skill.

So I would like to refile my complaint with the coaching/GM department. When we have perimeter players like Tambellini and Schremp who add virtually nothing in multiple aspects of the game which in turn force the 4th line to receive more minutes in important situation then they are capable of handling.

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11-15-2009, 02:55 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Hunter07 View Post
First of all, I don't take the "score score score" line as offensive, I know exactly what you are trying to say.
You did read these words (boldfaced), no?:

"That's how the coach is thinking, which (no disrespect) is a little different than the typical fan's mentality (score! score ! score!)."

Translation, I was making a general comment about how many here on HF express little attention to anything other than offense. "No disrespect" = not directed at you.

Quote:
The problem here is the minutes and time of game when the fourth line is in. They have no business being in a 4 on 4 OT where you have nothing to lose. You can't play not to lose in over time, especially with our shootout record. Thompson & Jackman also have no business being on the PK due to their lack of speed and skill.
Given the alternatives, I respectfully disagree....because I disagree, partially, with your philosophy on OT. But that's cool.

Quote:
So I would like to refile my complaint with the coaching/GM department. When we have perimeter players like Tambellini and Schremp who add virtually nothing in multiple aspects of the game which in turn force the 4th line to receive more minutes in important situation then they are capable of handling.
Indeed. And when this team truly is competitive (as of now, I'm not sold), those roster spots will be ultimately occupied by quality. Inferior teams have inferior players. The challenge is to be patient, determine who you want to retain for the long-haul and upgrade accordingly. And develop your top talent into players in whom you have confidence putting out on the ice in every game situation.

I promise you that when that happens, we will not be discussing the OT icetime of NYI fourth-liners. Because they won't be getting icetime.


Last edited by Trottier: 11-15-2009 at 03:02 PM.
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11-15-2009, 03:06 PM
  #185
Hunter07
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
You did read these words (boldfaced), no?:

"That's how the coach is thinking, which (no disrespect) is a little different than the typical fan's mentality (score! score ! score!)."

Translation, I was making a general comment about how many here on HF express little attention to anything other than offense. "No disrespect" = not directed at you.
Sorry, I was trying to say that I know you mean no disrespect toward me and the comment wasn't directed towards me, so don't worry I understand.

Quote:
Given the alternatives, I respectfully disagree....because I disagree, partially, with your philosophy on OT. But that's cool.
I guess we do differ on our OT philosophies in the regular season. I am for going for the throat and bringing it for 5 minutes. If we were talking playoff OT, this would be a different discussion for me.

Quote:
Indeed. And when this team truly is competitive (as of now, I'm not sold), those roster spots will be ultimately occupied by quality. Inferior teams have inferior players. The challenge is to be patient, determine who you want to retain for the long-haul and upgrade accordingly. And develop your top talent into players in whom you have confidence putting out on the ice in every game situation.

I promise you that when that happens, we will not be discusisng the OT icetime of NYI fourth-liners. Because they won't be getting icetime.
I fully agree with what you said here and I look forward to the day that this happens. Patients is the key term and I am all for it. Sure it is frustrating at times, but the team has shown some good promise and finally some hope.

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Old
11-15-2009, 03:15 PM
  #186
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Patients is the key term and I am all for it. Sure it is frustrating at times, but the team has shown some good promise and finally some hope.
in medicine?

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