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Give Brule more minutes? Lines when we're healthy?

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Old
11-14-2009, 09:30 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
Like Rep states, Brules' stats history in isolation are enough to brand him another "potential" bust. Thats what we traded for when we let a player go who had a track record as a proven, tough, decent scorer who also showed he could turn a PO series around with both a hit (Micihalek-sp?) and that fabulous goal to tie game 3 up. What Brule has done to date is nothing.

People are getting excited with Brule beacause he has had a decent start and yet like, Penner, assume he has turned the corner in his career after not even 20 games into the season. Again, like Penner, lets wait till the end of the season or even half before we consider Brule has become a player.


You know what you are getting with Tico and that is a very good hockey player, streakiness and all, compared to a player who has accomplished nothing in his 2 plus yrs in the league. With damning stats like that, who cares what Replacements motives are. Rep has already stated his mancrush on Torres is irrelevant to Brule's career path. Brule has earned the right for a longer look this season but I have yet to be convinced he has made it.
Thanks.

If anything we know that Raffi is an NHL player and specifically what his attributes as an NHL player are.

I think he's a good supporting cast player that is able to elevate his play at key moments and in the playoffs.

The thing is, and as simply put as possible, we don't know Brule is even an NHL player.

The jury is still out on that no matter how quickly people want to count chickens.

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11-14-2009, 09:37 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
Wow, that was an extremely fair comment about a kid who was brought into the NHL too soon. I don't recall Torres doing sweet **** all as a rookie, or before he came to the Oilers for that matter.

Again, your bias is really clouding your judgement.
Wasn't Torres MIA with the Islanders before he was traded to the Oilers.

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11-14-2009, 09:38 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
Wow, that was an extremely fair comment about a kid who was brought into the NHL too soon. I don't recall Torres doing sweet **** all as a rookie, or before he came to the Oilers for that matter.

Again, your bias is really clouding your judgement.
Torres had 31 NHL games played before he came here.

Brule had around 150.

Brule did sweet tweet with 150 games. By the time Raffi had 150 games he was well on his way to scoring 27 goals after 20 the year before.

Lets not assume Brule will.

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11-14-2009, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
Like Rep states, Brules' stats history in isolation are enough to brand him another "potential" bust. Thats what we traded for when we let a player go who had a track record as a proven, tough, decent scorer who also showed he could turn a PO series around with both a hit (Micihalek-sp?) and that fabulous goal to tie game 3 up. What Brule has done to date is nothing.

People are getting excited with Brule beacause he has had a decent start and yet like, Penner, assume he has turned the corner in his career after not even 20 games into the season. Again, like Penner, lets wait till the end of the season or even half before we consider Brule has become a player.


You know what you are getting with Tico and that is a very good hockey player, streakiness and all, compared to a player who has accomplished nothing in his 2 plus yrs in the league. With damning stats like that, who cares what Replacements motives are. Rep has already stated his mancrush on Torres is irrelevant to Brule's career path. Brule has earned the right for a longer look this season but I have yet to be convinced he has made it.
I think you're missing the point as well, with these supposed "damming stats". It never was truly a point of Torres vs Brule.

You've failed to comment on a couple points being addressed, such as how it's fair to compare the career of a 30 year old with a 22 year old based on ppg. Of course a player who's been in their prime will have attained better points per game. Look at players around the league. Their early years are much lower than their later years.

Like the Goals per game comparison used by Replacement, it's a completely biased unfair way to look at these two players.

Torres was only brought into the conversation to illustrate a point to the Torres fans out there who brand Brule's shortcomings based on what he hasn't done. I pointed out that before Torres came to the Oilers he had the exact same stat line. Next to zilch. It was through opportunity that Torres got his first 20 goal season (those became rare though).

Brule has played well enough this year (based on him being 2nd on the team in even strength points) to get more ice time.

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11-14-2009, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Torres had 31 NHL games played before he came here.

Brule had around 150.

Brule did sweet tweet with 150 games. By the time Raffi had 150 games he was well on his way to scoring 27 goals after 20 the year before.

Lets not assume Brule will.
This has been addressed. They had the same PPG at the same age.

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11-14-2009, 09:41 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
Wasn't Torres MIA with the Islanders before he was traded to the Oilers.
In re-reading my post I noticed it might have been confusing.

What I meant to say is Replacement is slagging Brule and calling him a bust and because of his first couple of years in the league, whereas his boy Torres had a very similar start to his career.

The difference between the two is a MASSIVE amount of pressure and expectation was put on Brule's shoulders as a CHILD in the NHL and that was never the case with Torres.

I liked Torres, there are many memories of the good things he did here. But he was far from perfect. He liked to party and sometimes forgot what made him an NHL'er. At least with Brule he is focussed on becoming a great hockey player and I believe he will turn it around. He has all the tools.

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11-14-2009, 09:41 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit View Post
I like how your first line is "let's imagine for a minute that all of our forwards are healthy" and then go on to exclude Pisani because he's injured.

Also, as much as Moreau has been bad, he's still been better than Jacques.
Yeah... I just don't believe in Pisani's ability to stay healthy. I've been a broken record on this matter since he came back with colitis.... so I just took him out of the line-up. It came down to him and Stortini.

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11-14-2009, 09:43 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Torres: .41 PPG
Brule: .26 PPG

Don't like one you should hate the other.
Nah. They're totally different players. Torres shoots from everywhere like O'Sullivan, takes stupid penalties from time to time, gets paid too much and gets injured too often.

I'm like Brule. I hate Torres and was overjoyed to see him go.

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11-14-2009, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
In re-reading my post I noticed it might have been confusing.

What I meant to say is Replacement is slagging Brule and calling him a bust and because of his first couple of years in the league, whereas his boy Torres had a very similar start to his career.

The difference between the two is a MASSIVE amount of pressure and expectation was put on Brule's shoulders as a CHILD in the NHL and that was never the case with Torres.

I liked Torres, there are many memories of the good things he did here. But he was far from perfect. He liked to party and sometimes forgot what made him an NHL'er. At least with Brule he is focussed on becoming a great hockey player and I believe he will turn it around. He has all the tools.

Thanks.

If anything we know that Brule was rushed into the league, but some people want to attribute that to the player and not the organization.

I think he's a good supporting cast player that seems to compete at a good level but needs to keep it going after being sick with the flu.

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11-14-2009, 09:44 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazed and Confused View Post
Rather then dwelling on what we had, think about what combos we could make now (when healthy)

Personal, I'd like to see

Stone-Brule-Reddox

I'm not a big Reddox fan (though he's played well this year), but that line could create hell for other teams with their forechecking.
Yeah that's a hard working checking line, but there'd be very little scoring on that line.

I can't knock Reddox for his work ethic, but I don't like him. He's too damn small and you can't convince me that he'd be able to play 60+ games a season over 5 years if he kept his pace up.

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11-14-2009, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
It's too bad we couldn't have dealt Nilsson for Brule.

Torres Brule Stone

Or some variation thereof could've been a lot of fun to watch.
The sad fact is that Columbus likely would've jumped at that deal...

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11-14-2009, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
The sad fact is that Columbus likely would've jumped at that deal...
Possible. Nilsson had a respectable year and had some value. How things change.

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11-14-2009, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
Nah. They're totally different players. Torres shoots from everywhere like O'Sullivan, takes stupid penalties from time to time, gets paid too much and gets injured too often.

I'm like Brule. I hate Torres and was overjoyed to see him go.
Wasn't Torres at one time always healthy. He had the ironman streak while with the Oilers. Then he was HS and then got injured with a torn ACL. Since he injured his knee (torn ACL), Torres has been unable to stay healthy.

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11-14-2009, 09:50 PM
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The bottom line here is, given the "extenuating circumstances", this was a trade that was good for both teams and both players.

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11-14-2009, 09:50 PM
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsun View Post
I think you're missing the point as well, with these supposed "damming stats". It never was truly a point of Torres vs Brule.

You've failed to comment on a couple points being addressed, such as how it's fair to compare the career of a 30 year old
So who's the 30 yr old? Torres is just over 5yrs older than Brule.

Quote:
with a 22 year old based on ppg. Of course a player who's been in their prime will have attained better points per game. Look at players around the league. Their early years are much lower than their later years.
At the same age as Brule Torres scored 20 goals here. Again we'll see what Brule comes up with. You think he hits 20 this year?


Quote:
Like the Goals per game comparison used by Replacement, it's a completely biased unfair way to look at these two players.
Well in that case let me know what I should be looking at in Brule in regards to his NHL strong suits. Please limit the conjecture and stick to what we know to be his NHL strong suits.

Quote:
Torres was only brought into the conversation to illustrate a point to the Torres fans out there who brand Brule's shortcomings based on what he hasn't done. I pointed out that before Torres came to the Oilers he had the exact same stat line. Next to zilch. It was through opportunity that Torres got his first 20 goal season (those became rare though).
NO, you only brought Torres into the discussion to discredit my take on Brule. The original comparison was between Sully and Brule as the OP figured somehow that it made sense to put Sully on 3rd line and move Brule up. Despite Sully being a better hockey player in anyway you want to mention.
I note nobody has tackled that discussion.

But a nice redirection in anycase.

Quote:
Brule has played well enough this year (based on him being 2nd on the team in even strength points) to get more ice time.
Well apparently he hasn't because he isn't getting increased icetime. His TOI has actually been reduced in November to an average of 10mins/game. Which is especially curious given that we have a depleted lineup.
It seems Quinn would rather double shift guys like Sully than play Brule any more minutes.

ymmv

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11-14-2009, 10:16 PM
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Getting this out of the way right off the bat. Brule is most certainly not better then either Torres or O'sullivan at this point in time, however he has shown that he has the tools that in a couple of years when he's O'sullivans age, he could be the best of the three. He flat out is a better shooter then O'sullivan and has better scoring instincts. He also has the grit and intangibles to be every bit as gritty as Torres and have every bit the two way game as O'sullivan. He also shows a lot of promise on the dot.

The Oiler's are being very careful in how they are handling Brule this year. When hes really motoring he's been given good minutes and when he's in a bit of a rut his ice time is reduced to around 10 minutes a game. Right now he's not playing as well as he can be and needs to up his intensity a bit. This really isnt that suprising, he's a young player that is gonna have his ups and downs much like Cogs and Gagner. I think the Oilers are doing a good job so far with Brule and it will really pay dividends a couple of years down the line.

The only thing id like to see is him getting some pp time in a role that he can excel at. Having him on the right side ready to one-time the puck. He was a force in that spot in junior.

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11-14-2009, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by surixon View Post
Getting this out of the way right off the bat. Brule is most certainly not better then either Torres or O'sullivan at this point in time, however he has shown that he has the tools that in a couple of years when he's O'sullivans age, he could be the best of the three. He flat out is a better shooter then O'sullivan and has better scoring instincts. He also has the grit and intangibles to be every bit as gritty as Torres and have every bit the two way game as O'sullivan. He also shows a lot of promise on the dot.

The Oiler's are being very careful in how they are handling Brule this year. When hes really motoring he's been given good minutes and when he's in a bit of a rut his ice time is reduced to around 10 minutes a game. Right now he's not playing as well as he can be and needs to up his intensity a bit. This really isnt that suprising, he's a young player that is gonna have his ups and downs much like Cogs and Gagner. I think the Oilers are doing a good job so far with Brule and it will really pay dividends a couple of years down the line.

The only thing id like to see is him getting some pp time in a role that he can excel at. Having him on the right side ready to one-time the puck. He was a force in that spot in junior.
A very nice analysis.

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11-14-2009, 11:24 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Datsun View Post
I think you're missing the point as well, with these supposed "damming stats". It never was truly a point of Torres vs Brule.

You've failed to comment on a couple points being addressed, such as how it's fair to compare the career of a 30 year old with a 22 year old based on ppg. Of course a player who's been in their prime will have attained better points per game. Look at players around the league. Their early years are much lower than their later years.

Like the Goals per game comparison used by Replacement, it's a completely biased unfair way to look at these two players.

Torres was only brought into the conversation to illustrate a point to the Torres fans out there who brand Brule's shortcomings based on what he hasn't done. I pointed out that before Torres came to the Oilers he had the exact same stat line. Next to zilch. It was through opportunity that Torres got his first 20 goal season (those became rare though).

Brule has played well enough this year (based on him being 2nd on the team in even strength points) to get more ice time.
I know I have missed the original point of this thread but not so sure about other points debated here.

I am a little confused about your criticism of people who brand Brule's shortcomings on what he hasn't done. His shortcomings are clearly illustrated by his fairly revealing track record of initial futility in his 3 yrs being a pro. And what he's done so far this year won't make me, at least, forget his shortcomings. Not yet anyway.

Admittedly, I am making general comparisons between Torres and Brule, with the age disparity. But to Rep's point, when he originally responded by arguing and doubting Brule even deserves consideration for top six, and no reference made of Torres then, Brule's stats alone prior to this season are not encouraging. And I concede Torres' stats were not the greatest either before coming here. But all Brule has earned thus far in this early season is a regular spot but as Rep points out, his TOI is diminishing. Whereas Torres had his breakout year and kept it going, more or less. And this is the point that I and others here are pressing: It's only been a quarter of season into Brule's "breakout" year and he hasn't put his stamp on a spot yet. But it's still too early. And if if I were a betting man, I would wager Brule will not attain the same kind of success Torres has earned.

I am not going to praise Brule or write him off just yet. He still might be a decent player along the lines of Torres but......

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11-14-2009, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
I know I have missed the original point of this thread but not so sure about other points debated here.

I am a little confused about your criticism of people who brand Brule's shortcomings on what he hasn't done. His shortcomings are clearly illustrated by his fairly revealing track record of initial futility in his 3 yrs being a pro. And what he's done so far this year won't make me, at least, forget his shortcomings. Not yet anyway.

Admittedly, I am making general comparisons between Torres and Brule, with the age disparity. But to Rep's point, when he originally responded by arguing and doubting Brule even deserves consideration for top six, and no reference made of Torres then, Brule's stats alone prior to this season are not encouraging. And I concede Torres' stats were not the greatest either before coming here. But all Brule has earned thus far in this early season is a regular spot but as Rep points out, his TOI is diminishing. Whereas Torres had his breakout year and kept it going, more or less. And this is the point that I and others here are pressing: It's only been a quarter of season into Brule's "breakout" year and he hasn't put his stamp on a spot yet. But it's still too early. And if if I were a betting man, I would wager Brule will not attain the same kind of success Torres has earned.

I am not going to praise Brule or write him off just yet. He still might be a decent player along the lines of Torres but......
I think that stamp you're talking about is his ability to put up points even strength. Here's a list of players with 10 to 12 points even strength.

Iginla
Carter
Thornton
Heatley
Bergeron
Semin
Alfredsson
Kesler
Stamkos

And it goes on and on

He can't touch those players skill wise, but it shows the sort of names he's associated with, and the skill that's needed to put up points even strength. I think that "stamp" is the rare ability on this team to put up on even strength.

Isn't that an asset? Isn't that an ability we need, considering that there's a huge drop-off after Patrick O'Sullivan from 9 to 6 EV points?

He's third on the team in hits. He's got 10 points in 16 games and he was rolling until the flu hit him.

And to the comment that when Torres was the same age, he kept things rolling and didn't see his TOI effected? Well...no. Here's his game time at the same age at the same time of year.

Torres

Game 13 14:30
Game 14 11:31
Game 15 17:45
Game 16 15:14
Game 17 12:53

Is that so different from what we've seen Brule play? The last couple games he's played less, but he's had games of 19 minutes, 18 minutes and 16 minutes so their icetime is pretty similar. In fact, if you go through the stats of 03-04 Torres had several games under 10 minutes. So your claim that he kept on trucking isn't quite true in terms of TOI like you mentioned.

To me Brule seems like one of the last guys we need to rag on.

Like Penner.

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11-14-2009, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsun View Post
I think that stamp you're talking about is his ability to put up points even strength. Here's a list of players with 10 to 12 points even strength.

Iginla
Carter
Thornton
Heatley
Bergeron
Semin
Alfredsson
Kesler
Stamkos

And it goes on and on

He can't touch those players skill wise, but it shows the sort of names he's associated with, and the skill that's needed to put up points even strength. I think that "stamp" is the rare ability on this team to put up on even strength.

Isn't that an asset? Isn't that an ability we need, considering that there's a huge drop-off after Patrick O'Sullivan from 9 to 6 EV points?

He's third on the team in hits. He's got 10 points in 16 games and he was rolling until the flu hit him.

And to the comment that when Torres was the same age, he kept things rolling and didn't see his TOI effected? Well...no. Here's his game time at the same age at the same time of year.

Torres

Game 13 14:30
Game 14 11:31
Game 15 17:45
Game 16 15:14
Game 17 12:53

Is that so different from what we've seen Brule play? The last couple games he's played less, but he's had games of 19 minutes, 18 minutes and 16 minutes so their icetime is pretty similar. In fact, if you go through the stats of 03-04 Torres had several games under 10 minutes. So your claim that he kept on trucking isn't quite true in terms of TOI like you mentioned.

To me Brule seems like one of the last guys we need to rag on.

Like Penner.
No need to rag on him

Just another of the Oilers 20 bottom 9 players.

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11-14-2009, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
No need to rag on him

Just another of the Oilers 20 bottom 9 players.
But he's a bottom 9 guy who actually hits and doesn't wear his skirt to the game, and before he got the flu he was a constant player. He's a piece of the puzzle. Not the answer.

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11-14-2009, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Datsun View Post
But he's a bottom 9 guy who actually hits and doesn't wear his skirt to the game, and before he got the flu he was a constant player. He's a piece of the puzzle. Not the answer.
Lots of pieces. No eagles among the pigeons.

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11-14-2009, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Lots of pieces. No eagles among the pigeons.
There's always...the future!

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11-14-2009, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Datsun View Post
There's always...the future!
There is always next year!

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11-14-2009, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Lots of pieces. No eagles among the pigeons.
I'd say we have some eagles but not enough (or they have a broken wings), but there's definitely a pigeon problem here, that's for sure...

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