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11-16-2009, 01:00 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines View Post
Poor decision making abilities are poor decision making abilities. Quinn is already exasperated and it drove MacTavish over the deep end. You can't coach common sense and at the game's highest level and speed of play, these weaknesses are exposed. Course it could be the ice cream ... give me my share!
Then obviously you have never seen somebody become more committed when they were less micro-managed. I've seen this, and experienced it many times, it's reality, and to ignore it is just stubbornness.

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The ties were cut last summer. This team has had enough time under Quinn to form their own identity (like he preached to the fans) yet they still maintain poor play, lack of character, and untimely bad decision making.
Man I don't know what world you're living in. Overall the team has been playing better! You're fixated on the negative aspects of the game, and refuse to acknowledge that the Oilers had more puck possession, and at least equal scoring chances last game.

I don't think the roster is the best in the world, but guys like Cogliano, Patio, Souray, they all have displayed pretty good hockey sense in the past, and for the most part played very well against Atlanta! To suggest that they're just lost causes and horrible players just because they made a couple mistakes? Absurd.

Really, this whole "the entire roster sucks" club is pretty comical. I'm starting to wonder if you guys actually watch hockey at all.

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11-16-2009, 01:17 PM
  #277
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Read my post #255 and see if paralyzing fears is why we lose this game and more milk and cookies is the answer to make the nightmares go away.

Coglianos two passes behind while killing a pk in the same sequence is more an act of irresponsibility than fear and typical of a group of forwards that figure to pad their pts any chance they get instead of making the right responsible play.
Cogliano in the paper today musing about: "well, how was I supposed to know Afinogenov is back there poaching for a goal?"
Cogliano too was shaking his head at the *bad fortune* as Afinogenov raced up the ice on a breakaway Cogs assisted on and scored. What a madcap series of events, who knew?

This is the nature of stupidity MacT has had to deal with for years.

Quinn wasn't angry after last nights loss. After 20 games he's already sounding demoralized.

I wouldn't wish this club on any coach.
You've been on an angry tear lately, so it seems. And justifiably so.

MacT was a good coach with a mediocre roster that produced predictable results. Quinn is a very good coach, different systems but same results thus far with essentially the same team.

Mitigating circumstances of injuries, flu, player slotting have hampered Quinn's implementation of new systems. 20 games into Quinn's tenure, with the difficulties of maintaining a regular lineup, is not exactly time enough to right the ship and declare this team a bunch of melon heads.

Collective stupidity of the team, with certain players keeping the bar high enough to keep them at their genetically encoded .500 level of play, might explain the past decade of futility. And Cogliano might be your poster child for the teams mental lapses after the 2 successive brain farts that you describe.

But I take issue with the bolded part above Rep. You cannot know that Cogliano was looking to pad his points and I doubt very much any one on that team would consider such thought processes in the heat of battle. It's Quinney's job to try and coach the the stupidity out these players. I hope he succeeds but I have my doubts. And it's deplorable of some posters here laying the blame on MacT's head for the teams play this year. For some reason they can't, won't let go of the idea that we actually have an awesome team that MacT coached into the ground. It can't be the players. How about a little of MacT and a whole lot of mediocre talent?

I like Quinn and what he brings but you scare me Rep if you think Quinn's already exasperated and frustrated with his roster after 20 games. He needs more time and a healthy, regular (no, not that way) lineup to see if his coaching methods gain traction.

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11-16-2009, 01:20 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
You've been on an angry tear lately, so it seems. And justifiably so.

MacT was a good coach with a mediocre roster that produced predictable results. Quinn is a very good coach, different systems but same results thus far with essentially the same team.

Mitigating circumstances of injuries, flu, player slotting have hampered Quinn's implementation of new systems. 20 games into Quinn's tenure, with the difficulties of maintaining a regular lineup, is not exactly time enough to right the ship and declare this team a bunch of melon heads.

Collective stupidity of the team, with certain players keeping the bar high enough to keep them at their genetically encoded .500 level of play, might explain the past decade of futility. And Cogliano might be your poster child for the teams mental lapses after the 2 successive brain farts that you describe.

But I take issue with the bolded part above Rep. You cannot know that Cogliano was looking to pad his points and I doubt very much any one on that team would consider such thought processes in the heat of battle. It's Quinney's job to try and coach the the stupidity out these players. I hope he succeeds but I have my doubts. And it's deplorable of some posters here laying the blame on MacT's head for the teams play this year. For some reason they can't, won't let go of the idea that we actually have an awesome team that MacT coached into the ground. It can't be the players. How about a little of MacT and a whole lot of mediocre talent?

I like Quinn and what he brings but you scare me Rep if you think Quinn's already exasperated and frustrated with his roster after 20 games. He needs more time and a healthy, regular (no, not that way) lineup to see if his coaching methods gain traction.
When the roster was healthy they were gangbusters. Let's wait until Jacques and Stone return so that the size and grit returns as well as better balance and then let's see how things go.

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11-16-2009, 01:24 PM
  #279
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Then obviously you have never seen somebody become more committed when they were less micro-managed. I've seen this, and experienced it many times, it's reality, and to ignore it is just stubbornness.



Man I don't know what world you're living in. Overall the team has been playing better! You're fixated on the negative aspects of the game, and refuse to acknowledge that the Oilers had more puck possession, and at least equal scoring chances last game.

I don't think the roster is the best in the world, but guys like Cogliano, Patio, Souray, they all have displayed pretty good hockey sense in the past, and for the most part played very well against Atlanta! To suggest that they're just lost causes and horrible players just because they made a couple mistakes? Absurd.

Really, this whole "the entire roster sucks" club is pretty comical. I'm starting to wonder if you guys actually watch hockey at all.
I honestly don't know how he figures that the team was better last season. Weren't we relatively healthy minus Lubo late last year when they tanked? The first 10-15 games last season? I have more hope for this team because they have been hit with injuries and the flu really hard. This team really needs Stone and Jacques up front. We'll be fine once the club can get healthy again.

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11-16-2009, 01:50 PM
  #280
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I honestly don't know how he figures that the team was better last season. Weren't we relatively healthy minus Lubo late last year when they tanked? The first 10-15 games last season? I have more hope for this team because they have been hit with injuries and the flu really hard. This team really needs Stone and Jacques up front. We'll be fine once the club can get healthy again.
Last year when they were healthy, they still weren't performing. It was tough losing Visnovsky for almost half the season, but when they were embarrased at home by the Leafs and the Sabres, they were still fielding a full roster. That basically sealed MacT's fate.

The team so far this season hasn't had many games with a full roster, so to start basing conclusions this early is short-sighted. The only conclusion that can be drawn so far is that if they continue with this many key injuries and sicknesses, they arent going anywhere. The team is too young and doesnt have enough depth to handle 5 or more regulars being out of the lineup every night.

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11-16-2009, 01:54 PM
  #281
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Last year when they were healthy, they still weren't performing. It was tough losing Visnovsky for almost half the season, but when they were embarrased at home by the Leafs and the Sabres, they were still fielding a full roster. That basically sealed MacT's fate.

The team so far this season hasn't had many games with a full roster, so to start basing conclusions this early is short-sighted. The only conclusion that can be drawn so far is that if they continue with this many key injuries and sicknesses, they arent going anywhere. The team is too young and doesnt have enough depth to handle 5 or more regulars being out of the lineup every night.
It's not short sighted, IMO it's vindictive. Trying to push everyone into believing that MacT wasn't the problem so that when they become healthy and start to play much better then they can just say "well they're a year older this year" so that at no time will they have to agree that a coaching change was needed and that this coaching staff is doing a better job than last years. I mean when you have people saying that Penner is breathing too heavy, that the team sucks despite it not being together for more than a small handful of games, it's just mind boggling IMO.

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11-16-2009, 02:25 PM
  #282
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In defense of my comments what predicated it is Cogliano repeatedly breaking cardinal rules on the pk.

He's a pro player. Back in the day a coach in Bantam hockey would scream at you for doing something like that even once, but twice?

After making that play you'd be scared going back to the bench or dressing room.

How does a player get to this level of hockey and make that play? Twice. I'm still wondering that.

Cogs in his post game and newspaper quotes doesn't even acknowledge he made a critical error. In his mind its bad luck that Afinogenov was somehow back there poaching on the play.

I can overlook a lot but when I see stupidity like that displayed on the ice its hard to believe it can be overcome through coaching.
How about putting the blame for that play where it really belongs? Our so-called captain with a penchant for offensive zone penalties. It frustrates me that he saw so much action after that. He should have been stapled to the bench. He shouldnt see another shift in an Oiler uniform. Ever.

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11-16-2009, 02:48 PM
  #283
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How about putting the blame for that play where it really belongs? Our so-called captain with a penchant for offensive zone penalties. It frustrates me that he saw so much action after that. He should have been stapled to the bench. He shouldnt see another shift in an Oiler uniform. Ever.
I agree, Moreau is a big big problem. He is being an idiot too consistently for it to not be noticed by management and coaching.

On that play, Cogliano made a mistake. But Souray made a mistake too. And Moreau made a mistake.

So this whole ragging on Cogliano thing is a little strange. What was Souray doing there? For all we know Souray called for the pass!

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11-16-2009, 03:20 PM
  #284
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But I take issue with the bolded part above Rep. You cannot know that Cogliano was looking to pad his points and I doubt very much any one on that team would consider such thought processes in the heat of battle. It's Quinney's job to try and coach the the stupidity out these players. I hope he succeeds but I have my doubts. And it's deplorable of some posters here laying the blame on MacT's head for the teams play this year. For some reason they can't, won't let go of the idea that we actually have an awesome team that MacT coached into the ground. It can't be the players. How about a little of MacT and a whole lot of mediocre talent?
Well I mean c'mon, every time I try to find some middle ground here, I get the same old refrain.

Coaching plays a big part in a young players development. This is a team of young players. So is it not fair to say that the coaching in past years could have set our guys back? is it not fair to say that it takes time to correct those kinds of developmental mistakes?

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11-16-2009, 03:24 PM
  #285
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Well I mean c'mon, every time I try to find some middle ground here, I get the same old refrain.

Coaching plays a big part in a young players development. This is a team of young players. So is it not fair to say that the coaching in past years could have set our guys back? is it not fair to say that it takes time to correct those kinds of developmental mistakes?
Anyone with eyesight and a working knowledge of the game could see that Mact was woefully inadequate. Things looked promising early but then injuries overwhelmed the team. We will have to wait a while before the new coaching staff can be properly judged. Those trying to do it now to justify Mactavish look silly. And rightfully so.

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11-16-2009, 03:52 PM
  #286
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You've been on an angry tear lately, so it seems. And justifiably so.

MacT was a good coach with a mediocre roster that produced predictable results. Quinn is a very good coach, different systems but same results thus far with essentially the same team.

Mitigating circumstances of injuries, flu, player slotting have hampered Quinn's implementation of new systems. 20 games into Quinn's tenure, with the difficulties of maintaining a regular lineup, is not exactly time enough to right the ship and declare this team a bunch of melon heads.

Collective stupidity of the team, with certain players keeping the bar high enough to keep them at their genetically encoded .500 level of play, might explain the past decade of futility. And Cogliano might be your poster child for the teams mental lapses after the 2 successive brain farts that you describe.

But I take issue with the bolded part above Rep. You cannot know that Cogliano was looking to pad his points and I doubt very much any one on that team would consider such thought processes in the heat of battle. It's Quinney's job to try and coach the the stupidity out these players. I hope he succeeds but I have my doubts. And it's deplorable of some posters here laying the blame on MacT's head for the teams play this year. For some reason they can't, won't let go of the idea that we actually have an awesome team that MacT coached into the ground. It can't be the players. How about a little of MacT and a whole lot of mediocre talent?

I like Quinn and what he brings but you scare me Rep if you think Quinn's already exasperated and frustrated with his roster after 20 games. He needs more time and a healthy, regular (no, not that way) lineup to see if his coaching methods gain traction.
Thanks for the reply and points taken. I've never been more fed up with the team but the combination yesterday of heartbreaking defeats in both games was a bit much to take.

I was wrong to say the part about padding pts. My earlier statement, that Cogliano gets tunnel vision in situation when he's sniffing out a scoring chance or play is more accurate.

The kid expected that a scoring play would develop and pushed the issue way too much making 2 silly plays.

It doesn't help my consideration of the play that two veteran D, were somehow both inside the opposition blueline instead of watching Afinogenov.

So many textbook errors on that play its frustrating.

No I don't think Quinn is waving any white flag or tossing in the towel by any means but I imagine he thought there would be less problems like this than we're seeing.

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11-16-2009, 03:55 PM
  #287
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How about putting the blame for that play where it really belongs? Our so-called captain with a penchant for offensive zone penalties. It frustrates me that he saw so much action after that. He should have been stapled to the bench. He shouldnt see another shift in an Oiler uniform. Ever.
No problem with that. I'm no fan of Moreau.

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Anyone with eyesight and a working knowledge of the game could see that Mact was woefully inadequate. Things looked promising early but then injuries overwhelmed the team. We will have to wait a while before the new coaching staff can be properly judged. Those trying to do it now to justify Mactavish look silly. And rightfully so.
I'm not judging Quinn with this beyond his decision to put cogs out on the pk as much as he does which is looking for trouble.

Cogs is our worst forward pker other than Stortini but Cogs gets regular minutes on penalty kill..

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11-16-2009, 04:02 PM
  #288
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No problem with that. I'm no fan of Moreau.

I'm not judging Quinn with this beyond his decision to put cogs out on the pk as much as he does which is looking for trouble.

Cogs is our worst forward pker other than Stortini but Cogs gets regular minutes on penalty kill..
Yeah, Cogliano has made a few dismal decisions. But everyone on this team has at one point or another this season. He may have made a boneheaded play, but as Grandpa Quinn says, at least it was a sin of commission - trying to do something that might create offense - and not just a lack of effort. I'm not saying I liked it, but I'll give him a nod for trying to do something, even if it wasn't the right something.

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11-16-2009, 04:08 PM
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Yeah, Cogliano has made a few dismal decisions. But everyone on this team has at one point or another this season. He may have made a boneheaded play, but as Grandpa Quinn says, at least it was a sin of commission - trying to do something that might create offense - and not just a lack of effort. I'm not saying I liked it, but I'll give him a nod for trying to do something, even if it wasn't the right something.
Anytime but on the pk I'd tend to agree.

But with your team one goal up in a needed road win with 1min left in the period with dangerous opponents on the ice on their PP..

I can't even fathom it in that game situation. As Quinn mentioned teams need to learn how to win.

This seems like the opposite here happening.

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11-16-2009, 04:25 PM
  #290
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I can't even fathom it in that game situation. As Quinn mentioned teams need to learn how to win.

This seems like the opposite here happening.
Sure, but you to have lose to become sick of making mistakes.

The true test will come on the next PK Andrew Cogliano plays. We'll see then if he came away from his experience with any new insights.

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11-16-2009, 04:42 PM
  #291
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Anytime but on the pk I'd tend to agree.

But with your team one goal up in a needed road win with 1min left in the period with dangerous opponents on the ice on their PP..

I can't even fathom it in that game situation. As Quinn mentioned teams need to learn how to win.

This seems like the opposite here happening.
I'll re-iterate again: If Souray doesn't get sucked in there, then Cogs doesn't make that pass. Positionally, Souray is at fault.

There's no way you can completely absolve Cogs on that, but he also shouldn't be crucified for it.

And let's get back to the reality of the situation. First you learn how to play a good consistent game shift to shift. Then you learn how to win.

In that sense there's marked improvement.

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11-16-2009, 04:51 PM
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Anytime but on the pk I'd tend to agree.

But with your team one goal up in a needed road win with 1min left in the period with dangerous opponents on the ice on their PP..

I can't even fathom it in that game situation. As Quinn mentioned teams need to learn how to win.

This seems like the opposite here happening.
Yeah, ok, I can see your point. But maybe having Cogliano on the PK is Quinn's way of getting him more ice time?

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11-16-2009, 05:46 PM
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I'll re-iterate again: If Souray doesn't get sucked in there, then Cogs doesn't make that pass. Positionally, Souray is at fault.
No disagreement here. Disappointed as well in Souray and Struds as neither picked up the threat.

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There's no way you can completely absolve Cogs on that, but he also shouldn't be crucified for it.
After both disastrous results yesterday I had a whole lotta fan angst to get out. Cogs got some of that. I'm not typically hard on him.

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And let's get back to the reality of the situation. First you learn how to play a good consistent game shift to shift. Then you learn how to win.

In that sense there's marked improvement.
I need to see more to agree with this.

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11-16-2009, 06:05 PM
  #294
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jfc.... has anyone noticed that Rich Peverley is 12th in scoring, 17GP - 8G - 15A - 23P, +5.

Wow... and how much is this guy making? 2 mill or something... crazy...

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11-16-2009, 10:08 PM
  #295
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Then obviously you have never seen somebody become more committed when they were less micro-managed. I've seen this, and experienced it many times, it's reality, and to ignore it is just stubbornness..
You sir are hardly the only soul to be micro managed. Little different talking about your or I in cubicle jail versus a truly public situation like NHL players. Even though they perform in a fully transparent manner likely 98% of hockey fans do not see the day to day practices or locker room so commenting on 'micro managing' is based on what? Not the complete picture.

These are also elite athlete who have been forced to compete for most of their lives. Hardly wilting flowers who simply pack up and quit when the first sign of adversity hits.

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Man I don't know what world you're living in. Overall the team has been playing better! You're fixated on the negative aspects of the game, and refuse to acknowledge that the Oilers had more puck possession, and at least equal scoring chances last game.

I don't think the roster is the best in the world, but guys like Cogliano, Patio, Souray, they all have displayed pretty good hockey sense in the past, and for the most part played very well against Atlanta! To suggest that they're just lost causes and horrible players just because they made a couple mistakes? Absurd.

Really, this whole "the entire roster sucks" club is pretty comical. I'm starting to wonder if you guys actually watch hockey at all.
I'm from planet pragmatic. I have seriously corrected my expectations around this hockey team - the one that its General Manager called out its roster when delivering the axe on MacTavish and then promptly did little to change a non-performing roster. The Oilers will be better under Quinn. This is not and never has been a MacT vs. Quinn issue. I happen to believe this team's talent has been overhyped for years. I'm not making evaluations based upon one game but repeated results over years now. They don't score enough. They haven't defended well enough. And don't make the playoffs. When your leading scorer tops in at 66 and 71 and 53 points the past three years I think it is reasonable to question the talent level.

You seem to like to paint things as black and white issues. Once again this is not a black and white issue. The team obviously has some talent, ability and potential. The kids might get there (Gagner, Brule, Cogliano, Smid) but they are green on the vine right now and subject to some inconsistency on basis of making the quantum learning curve to be a consistent pro. Will they develop to their potential? We'll have to wait on that.

I like Quinn and happen to believe he is the right guy for this team. But what I don't believe is in Quinn the Miracle Worker. They will be better but like Quinn himself I won't hold out too much glory for moral victories. If you're content with that I salute you!


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11-16-2009, 10:33 PM
  #296
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You sir are hardly the only soul to be micro managed. Little different talking about your or I in cubicle jail versus a truly public situation like NHL players. Even though they perform in a fully transparent manner likely 98% of hockey fans do not see the day to day practices or locker room so commenting on 'micro managing' is based on what? Not the complete picture.

These are also elite athlete who have been forced to compete for most of their lives. Hardly wilting flowers who simply pack up and quit when the first sign of adversity hits.



I'm from planet pragmatic. I have seriously corrected my expectations around this hockey team - the one that its General Manager called out its roster when delivering the axe on MacTavish and then promptly did little to change a non-performing roster. The Oilers will be better under Quinn. This is not and never has been a MacT vs. Quinn issue. I happen to believe this team's talent has been overhyped for years. I'm not making evaluations based upon one game but repeated results over years now. They don't score enough. They haven't defended well enough. And don't make the playoffs. When your leading scorer tops in at 66 and 71 and 53 points the past three years I think it is reasonable to question the talent level.

You seem to like to paint things as black and white issues. Once again this is not a black and white issue. The team obviously has some talent, ability and potential. The kids might get there (Gagner, Brule, Cogliano, Smid) but they are green on the vine right now and subject to some inconsistency on basis of making the quantum learning curve to be a consistent pro. Will they develop to their potential? We'll have to wait on that.

I like Quinn and happen to believe he is the right guy for this team. But what I don't believe is in Quinn the Miracle Worker. They will be better but like Quinn himself I won't hold out too much glory for moral victories. If you're content with that I salute you!
I was going to comment on this point by point, but it's just so delusional, there's no real reason to. I really have no idea who you're talking to with all this stuff, I feel like I just went through your diary.

It's never been black and white for me. It's never been Quinn vs. MacT for me. I call them as I see them, and what I see is a team that has been poorly coached for a long time. To NOT see that is delusion.

You're the one dismissing coaching as being a problem for this team. I've been open to roster moves all along, I think the roster AND the coaching staff needed to be improved. So exactly who is being "black and white" here? I mean you just got finished suggesting that a roster of NHL players need ice cream to be motivated, so I'm not sure you're the best judge of reasonable discourse.

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11-16-2009, 11:53 PM
  #297
hockeyaddict101
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Originally Posted by theranfordflop View Post
I was going to comment on this point by point, but it's just so delusional, there's no real reason to. I really have no idea who you're talking to with all this stuff, I feel like I just went through your diary.

It's never been black and white for me. It's never been Quinn vs. MacT for me. I call them as I see them, and what I see is a team that has been poorly coached for a long time. To NOT see that is delusion.

You're the one dismissing coaching as being a problem for this team. I've been open to roster moves all along, I think the roster AND the coaching staff needed to be improved. So exactly who is being "black and white" here? I mean you just got finished suggesting that a roster of NHL players need ice cream to be motivated, so I'm not sure you're the best judge of reasonable discourse.
I think the coaching did have to change but I think a lot of us put too much blame on the coaches.

Everything was Mactavish's fault to the point of ridiculousness.

It was convenient and perhaps a little bit of wishful thinking on our part as we didn't want to believe the team was that bad.

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