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Old
11-19-2009, 05:06 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
That's amazing you could tell that from the 300's.

Can you also tell us why JJ went with raviolis instead of spaghetti for his pre-game meal?
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
It doesn't take a close up view of two animals in the wild to know what is going on. As a man, and hockey fan, you have to have seen the dance 1000's of times by now.
Exactly. Body language says a lot, and JJ's body language was "this guy is challenging me... what should I do?"

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11-19-2009, 05:07 PM
  #177
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Dude, it DID change the momentum in favor of the Flyer's because OD had to step in and JJ looked like he couldn't stand up for himself. He's not Doughty, he's not Kopitar, he's supposed to be a tough ass defenseman. Kings were sloppy and tentative after that incident.
What are you talking about? Hartnell and JJ were pushing at eachother? What did SoD do? Answer : Push at Hartnell. SoD did exactly what JJ did.

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11-19-2009, 05:15 PM
  #178
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What are you talking about? Hartnell and JJ were pushing at eachother? What did SoD do? Answer : Push at Hartnell. SoD did exactly what JJ did.
If JJ was handling himself, why would OD feel the need to come ot his rescue?

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11-19-2009, 05:20 PM
  #179
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Exactly. Body language says a lot, and JJ's body language was "this guy is challenging me... what should I do?"

Which is why I tend to think, and I watched at home on TV , that JJ was looking to Murray to see if it was okay to go.

Makes me think perhaps he's been given orders not to fight. I got that feeling with Crawford too. He has the inclination for sure. However, I would almost guarantee that he's been told to back off and play hockey first.

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11-19-2009, 05:21 PM
  #180
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If JJ was handling himself, why would OD feel the need to come ot his rescue?
My guess is for the exact reason mentioned earlier - would could lose OD for five minutes. No problem.

Plus, that's his job - look out for the kids and step up and do those things. Right?

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11-19-2009, 05:22 PM
  #181
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Which is why I tend to think, and I watched at home on TV , that JJ was looking to Murray to see if it was okay to go.

Makes me think perhaps he's been given orders not to fight. I got that feeling with Crawford too. He has the inclination for sure. However, I would almost guarantee that he's been told to back off and play hockey first.
That could be possible. I actually hadn't thought of it that way, as him being worried of reprimand from the coach. If that were the case, then my problem lies with Murray.

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11-19-2009, 05:24 PM
  #182
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My guess is for the exact reason mentioned earlier - would could lose OD for five minutes. No problem.

Plus, that's his job - look out for the kids and step up and do those things. Right?
Yes it is, but at some point he won't be there and these kids need to do it themselves. I don't exactly group JJ with the other kids because he is supposed to a tough customer himself.

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11-19-2009, 05:39 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
It doesn't take a close up view of two animals in the wild to know what is going on. As a man, and hockey fan, you have to have seen the dance 1000's of times by now.
Not what I'm referring to. The fact that he thinks he knows JJ didn't fight because he was "scared of being pummeled" is what I take issue with.

He could have not fought for numerous reasons. 1) Neither of them were actually looking for a fight. 2) JJ has been told not to fight. 3) He didn't want to be in the box for 5 minutes. 4) It plays into the style of hockey the Flyers play and the Kings don't. 5) ETC.

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11-19-2009, 05:41 PM
  #184
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If JJ was handling himself, why would OD feel the need to come ot his rescue?
Because that's what veterans do. It's not rocket science.

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11-19-2009, 05:55 PM
  #185
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I would be curious to see Parse-Kopi-Williams for a game and put Frolov with Stoll and Brown. Those seem like better compliments on paper in terms of style of play.
I thought for sure you'd push for your boy Richardson to fill in on the LW with Kopi and Williams. I believe Richardson has played some LW before. I think this could actually work. Then you can stick Fro with Zeus and Brown as that line has worked well. Which leaves Stoll/Parse/Purcell and VOILA! You just may have 3 scoring lines!!! As for the 4th line, does it really matter?

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Which is why I tend to think, and I watched at home on TV , that JJ was looking to Murray to see if it was okay to go.
Makes me think perhaps he's been given orders not to fight. I got that feeling with Crawford too. He has the inclination for sure. However, I would almost guarantee that he's been told to back off and play hockey first.
Regardless of whether he's been ordered not to fight or not, if JJ REALLY wanted to fight, he would have fought. To me, JJ actually looked over to TM like a kid looks over to his dad, when he's afraid and don't know what to do.

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11-19-2009, 05:55 PM
  #186
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Not what I'm referring to. The fact that he thinks he knows JJ didn't fight because he was "scared of being pummeled" is what I take issue with.

He could have not fought for numerous reasons. 1) Neither of them were actually looking for a fight. 2) JJ has been told not to fight. 3) He didn't want to be in the box for 5 minutes. 4) It plays into the style of hockey the Flyers play and the Kings don't. 5) ETC.
Well I just acknowledged that it could be for another reason. Yes I am reading into with "scared" but regardless of the reason, the outcome is the same and the outcome is what I take umbrage with.

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Because that's what veterans do. It's not rocket science.
Yes that is what veterans do, and that is what OD should do when necessary. But the issue is not that OD came over, it is that he felt the need to in a situation JJ should have controlled himself.

As for your 5 reasons, 1, Hartnell was most clearly looking for a fight. 2 is possible. 3 is possible but not a good enough reason to not stand up for yourself when you are rapidly losing momentum halfway through the game. 4, some Kings need to toughen up. Whether or not gloves are dropped, at the least do what Stoll did to Carcillo and get RIGHT in his face and call him a big smelly disgusting hairy beast tampon ugly ******* piece of ****. Or, do NOTHING and skate away smiling, knowing that you got in his head. Let him run after and jump you if he is so mad and you are so insistent on not fighting for whatever reason. How many times do I have to say it's the in-between indecisiveness that killed us, both in that situation and with the puck. Its an overall attitude that the Kings have in nearly every loss. They aren't sure. Should I pass or shoot? Should I dump or carry? Should I fight or not? Pick one damnit and stick with it. Being on the fence about anything is no way to win a hockey game. 5, 'etc' is not a reason.

I know the 5 on 3 was the bigger issue. Had that gone well, none of this would be a topic of discussion. However, it didn't, and that was a chance to say "**** YOU PHILLY! This is OUR game, not yours" that we completely passed up. I just don't understand how anyone can warn "well fighting Hartnell would have given Philly the momentum" when it DID and they rode that same damn momentum to run over the Kings for a 2 goal lead. Why are people defending actions that clearly didn't work and went against us?

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11-19-2009, 05:59 PM
  #187
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my take was that JJ didn't fight Hartnell because it was a ludicrous situation. Jack laid a completely clean and in-the-flow-of-the-game check on Hartnell, who completely overreacted and tried to pick a fight. If you watched on TV, it looked like Jack was just laughing at him, like "are you serious? you want to fight over that?". Hartnell came off like a complete jackass. Odie only stepped in when Hartnell wouldn't shut up.

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11-19-2009, 06:11 PM
  #188
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Well I just acknowledged that it could be for another reason. Yes I am reading into with "scared" but regardless of the reason, the outcome is the same and the outcome is what I take umbrage with.
I think your reasoning isn't very likely. JJ hasn't fought much, but he has fought bigger, stronger guys already in this league, like Shane Doan and Dustin Penner. I fail to see how he'd be scared of fighting Hartnell.

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Yes that is what veterans do, and that is what OD should do when necessary. But the issue is not that OD came over, it is that he felt the need to in a situation JJ should have controlled himself.
It's not JJ's fault that OD decided to come give Hartnell a little nudge at the tail end of it. Who says JJ didn't have it under control? They were both yapping and carrying on with their little tiff where NEITHER player engaged to fight. You're trying to make an issue out of nothing.

This is typical of what veterans do, whether you deem it necessary or not. Just like when JJ put Smyth into the partition, was ready to fight Lappy to answer for it and Blake stepped in.

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As for your 5 reasons, 1, Hartnell was most clearly looking for a fight. 2 is possible. 3 is possible but not a good enough reason to not stand up for yourself when you are rapidly losing momentum halfway through the game. 4, some Kings need to toughen up. Whether or not gloves are dropped, at the least do what Stoll did to Carcillo and get RIGHT in his face and call him a big smelly disgusting hairy beast tampon ugly ******* piece of ****. Or, do NOTHING and skate away smiling, knowing that you got in his head. Let him run after and jump you if he is so mad and you are so insistent on not fighting for whatever reason. How many times do I have to say it's the in-between indecisiveness that killed us, both in that situation and with the puck. Its an overall attitude that the Kings have in nearly every loss. They aren't sure. Should I pass or shoot? Should I dump or carry? Should I fight or not? Pick one damnit and stick with it. Being on the fence about anything is no way to win a hockey game. 5, 'etc' is not a reason.
1. He may have been or not have been. How much of the Flyers do you watch? That's Hartnell's game and if he wanted to fight every time he got into something like that, he'd have more than ZERO fights this year.

2. And much more likely considering that we're only 24th in the league for fighting majors even though we dress a goon nearly every game.

3. He did stand up for himself, just not the way you wanted him to. JJ was in Hartnell's face all game and completely took him out of it. Sounds like you're trying to blame JJ for the entire team playing like **** in the 2nd.

4. I won't argue about the indecisiveness of this team, which is on the coaching staff. But, I think it's funny that you're advocating for JJ to do what Stoll did, which he pretty much did sans your interpretation of it.

5. I didn't feel like continuing to list more plausible reasons why your explanation on why there wasn't a fight made zero sense.

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I know the 5 on 3 was the bigger issue. Had that gone well, none of this would be a topic of discussion. However, it didn't, and that was a chance to say "**** YOU PHILLY! This is OUR game, not yours" that we completely passed up. I just don't understand how anyone can warn "well fighting Hartnell would have given Philly the momentum" when it DID and they rode that same damn momentum to run over the Kings for a 2 goal lead. Why are people defending actions that clearly didn't work and went against us?
Not fighting Hartnell didn't give Philly the momentum, they already had it.

Because there's no proof that fighting Hartnell would have changed anything. Again, this team isn't built to play that style of a game. The Flyers are and if you get into that with them you're playing right into their style of play. This team is what it is so until either the coaching style changes or some of the personnel changes, you live with it.

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11-19-2009, 06:30 PM
  #189
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I think your reasoning isn't very likely. JJ hasn't fought much, but he has fought bigger, stronger guys already in this league, like Shane Doan and Dustin Penner. I fail to see how he'd be scared of fighting Hartnell.
Fair enough.

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It's not JJ's fault that OD decided to come give Hartnell a little nudge at the tail end of it. Who says JJ didn't have it under control? They were both yapping and carrying on with their little tiff where NEITHER player engaged to fight. You're trying to make an issue out of nothing.

This is typical of what veterans do, whether you deem it necessary or not. Just like when JJ put Smyth into the partition, was ready to fight Lappy to answer for it and Blake stepped in.
I saw an issue live. It may not have looked like it on TV, but live that incident was about to get the entire arena back into the game, but instead left everyone with a kind of "huh... oh well" feel instead "YES, time to take it to these a-holes!" And please don't use Blake as an example of anything because he was a total ***** during that stay on this team and I am convinced Blake held JJ back more than Crawford.

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3. He did stand up for himself, just not the way you wanted him to. JJ was in Hartnell's face all game and completely took him out of it. Sounds like you're trying to blame JJ for the entire team playing like **** in the 2nd.
In a way, I am. The game was slipping and it was a chance to get back into the game that we just let slide. But you are right that the team as a whole did play like crap for the second. All the more something needed to be done or said, whether it be by the coach or a player. I'm keying in on JJ because that incident stood out to me as the other turning point in the game (the 5on3 being the first).
[/QUOTE]

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4. I won't argue about the indecisiveness of this team, which is on the coaching staff. But, I think it's funny that you're advocating for JJ to do what Stoll did, which he pretty much did sans your interpretation of it.
This is my biggest issue. Indecisiveness. It is on the coaching staff, but it can rectified by one player as well. I thought the Hartnell thing was that opportunity. The ability to gain momentum was placed at JJ's feet by Hartnell being a jerk off and instead of picking up the ball and seeing how far he could take it, he just kind of lightly kicked the ball into the corner.

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Not fighting Hartnell didn't give Philly the momentum, they already had it.

Because there's no proof that fighting Hartnell would have changed anything. Again, this team isn't built to play that style of a game. The Flyers are and if you get into that with them you're playing right into their style of play. This team is what it is so until either the coaching style changes or some of the personnel changes, you live with it.
They did have the momentum and like I said it was our chance to get it back. It was still a tie game then. People want to point to Brown's boarding penalty as that moment, but we were already down at that point. Better to take back momentum before you go down a goal than after.

As for the coaching, from what I read, Murray wants that kind of team. He clearly admires the Flyer's and always talks about checking, checking, checking. Fine, there is no proof that fighting Hartnell would have changed anything, because the only proof there is is that we didn't and we lost. Propter hoc, sure, but the only proof that does exist is we lost and played like scared rabbits during the second period.

What is this team built for then? Hasn't Philly always been the model?

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11-19-2009, 06:33 PM
  #190
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I thought for sure you'd push for your boy Richardson to fill in on the LW with Kopi and Williams. I believe Richardson has played some LW before. I think this could actually work. Then you can stick Fro with Zeus and Brown as that line has worked well. Which leaves Stoll/Parse/Purcell and VOILA! You just may have 3 scoring lines!!! As for the 4th line, does it really matter?

Kopi/JW/Richardson
Fro/Zeus/Brown
Parse/Stoll/Purcell
Good god man, if you're sick go to the doctor.
Under NO CIRCUMSTANCE must you allow the lack of goal scoring that infects the fourth line to come anywhere near our first line, not even in thought or virtual hockey.

I dont care how effective you think BR could be, He's NOT. I said it before and I'll say it again: I would rather see Kyle Calder there than BR, and they both suck!

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11-19-2009, 06:39 PM
  #191
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Good god man, if you're sick go to the doctor.
Under NO CIRCUMSTANCE must you allow the lack of goal scoring that infects the fourth line to come anywhere near our first line, not even in thought or virtual hockey.

I dont care how effective you think BR could be, He's NOT. I said it before and I'll say it again: I would rather see Kyle Calder there than BR, and they both suck!
Yeah I'm not sure why he thought I would want Richie there.

Though I don't agree with you re Calder. YOU'RE CRAZY!

I would, however, rather Richie play next to Zus and Simmonds while Fro is with Kopi. Purcell makes that checking line not so good. At the least Richie can check.

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11-19-2009, 06:43 PM
  #192
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As for the coaching, from what I read, Murray wants that kind of team. He clearly admires the Flyer's and always talks about checking, checking, checking. Fine, there is no proof that fighting Hartnell would have changed anything, because the only proof there is is that we didn't and we lost. Propter hoc, sure, but the only proof that does exist is we lost and played like scared rabbits during the second period.

What is this team built for then? Hasn't Philly always been the model?
Murray may want that kind of team but he doesn't coach this team that way or they simply tune him out nor does he have the personnel to either. The Kings play a checking game but that's where the fierceness ends. The majority of our players are fairly soft and the ones that do get physical beyond checking only do so sporadically (Greene, OD, Johnson, Simmer).

Lombardi and Murray may want to emulate a team like the Flyers but that's not the case. We don't have the personnel to do that and the odds of guys like Frolov, Kopi, Doughty, Richardson, Harrold, Purcell, etc. changing their games to emulate that is slim to none. Instead of trying to play a style we can't currently, it would be much more prudent to play a game that fits our current personnel and maximizes our chances at winning.

In summation, I don't think Murray and his staff are the ones for that job.

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11-19-2009, 07:01 PM
  #193
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i agree with everything JDM said, thanks for not making me type it out. obviously we all have different views of what this team is capable of and i do believe they have the potential to be a team that can mix it up and play in that high intensity playoff type form but i have yet to see that side from them. the reason i want to see it so bad is bc i believe its an aspect to the game that a team in the western conference needs to have in order to make waves in the playoffs and be able to change the momentum of a game. i believe we do have the personnel but unfortunately it seems they are in the wings at the moment (clune, clifford, westgarth), so i guess i'll just have to wait until then. in the meantime, green, johnson, simmonds, and brown need to stand up for themselves or this team is going to continue to get run over.


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11-19-2009, 07:33 PM
  #194
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If JJ was handling himself, why would OD feel the need to come ot his rescue?
Come to the rescue? Dude, stop. Players do this 20 times a game. Every time a scrum in front of the net happens you have guys pushing people. Again, what the **** did O'Donell do that Jack wasn't? Jack had just beat up Hartnell the entire shift. Why would he ruin the momentum and antagonation he just gained, and why would he think about sitting out 5 of the remaining 6 minutes in the game?

Tell me, if SoD really was coming to the aid Jack then why didn't he drop the gloves? Hartnell went after SoD after the push. In fact, SoD never even looked in the eyes of Hartnell. It was the typical attempt to boost team morale that you see 20 times a game. Nobody is dumb enough to hurt their team like they did at that time of the game and with the thin d corps.

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11-19-2009, 07:36 PM
  #195
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Come to the rescue? Dude, stop. Players do this 20 times a game. Every time a scrum in front of the net happens you have guys pushing people. Again, what the **** did O'Donell do that Jack wasn't? Jack had just beat up Hartnell the entire shift. Why would he ruin the momentum and antagonation he just gained, and why would he think about sitting out 5 of the remaining 6 minutes in the game?

Tell me, if SoD really was coming to the aid Jack then why didn't he drop the gloves? Hartnell went after SoD after the push. In fact, SoD never even looked in the eyes of Hartnell. It was the typical attempt to boost team morale that you see 20 times a game. Nobody is dumb enough to hurt their team like they did at that time of the game and with the thin d corps.
Exactly. I don't know what people are complaining about in this case. JJ didn't want to give the Flyers the benefit of being taken off the ice for 5minutes.

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11-19-2009, 07:42 PM
  #196
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Regardless of whether he's been ordered not to fight or not, if JJ REALLY wanted to fight, he would have fought. To me, JJ actually looked over to TM like a kid looks over to his dad, when he's afraid and don't know what to do.
I guarantee you that JJ was not looking to Murray as if he was scared. Jack has way too much pride. He was looking over there in a way to tell everyone that he can't fight. We all know that Jack is very startegic in the way he presents his image.

I've fought my whole life in one form or another and I can tell when someone is getting clammy. Jack stood up straight and looked him in the eyes until it was time to move on. He wasn't like some punk kid who taunts you with a smirk on their face all the while looking at the floor. Anyone with pride and confidence is a dangerous man whether they can throw or not. Jack has those is spades.

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11-19-2009, 07:54 PM
  #197
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I like how everyone's argument around JJ not dropping the gloves is that the Flyers would of gained energy. . . and what, we wouldn't gain anything from that?

I couldn't think of a better way of turning up our intensity is a good fight. Give the bench a little pep in their step. Also, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT JACK. Brown, Simmonds. . the ENTIRE team for that matter should of been up in arms when Pronger shot that puck on net after the whistle and when Richards dumped Frolov behind the net after the puck was dead.

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11-19-2009, 07:57 PM
  #198
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I like how everyone's argument around JJ not dropping the gloves is that the Flyers would of gained energy. . . and what, we wouldn't gain anything from that?

I couldn't think of a better way of turning up our intensity is a good fight. Give the bench a little pep in their step. Also, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT JACK. Brown, Simmonds. . the ENTIRE team for that matter should of been up in arms when Pronger shot that puck on net after the whistle and when Richards dumped Frolov behind the net after the puck was dead.
No. My argument is the Kings would've lost another dman when they can't afford to lose dmen. Philly can survive without Hartnell. The Kings put themselves at risk when they lose a player like Johnson. It's that simple.

He didn't need to fight and I heard no one complain around me about him not dropping the gloves. If anything, they were yelling at Hartnell for being a *****.

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11-19-2009, 07:58 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by kingsholygrail View Post
No. My argument is the Kings would've lost another dman when they can't afford to lose dmen. Philly can survive without Hartnell. The Kings put themselves at risk when they lose a player like Johnson. It's that simple.

He didn't need to fight and I heard no one complain around me about him not dropping the gloves. If anything, they were yelling at Hartnell for being a *****.
Ok, so we disagree about the JJ incident, but what about the other ones?

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11-19-2009, 08:01 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutty Sarkn3ss View Post
Ok, so we disagree about the JJ incident, but what about the other ones?
The Kings, from what I observed, lost all their swagger when they failed to score on the 5 on 3. I think the game would have been entirely different if they took a 2-0 lead going into the 2nd and this has been an issue lately for they Kings. They dominate 1st periods but come away 1-0, 1-1, or 0-0.

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