HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Which player do you wish stuck with Philly?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-19-2009, 11:23 AM
  #51
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I agree that Cheechoo is a crappy example of a 50-goal scorer, but Carter is not showing signs that he wont score 40 this year. So why take it away from him? I mean, if Carter had only 2 or 3 goals right now, I'd be concerned, but Carter has 7 in 18 games, which projects to roughly 34 goals. I mean, it's early yet, so he has time to improve those numbers. His assist total shot way up though, which is nice to see that he is still involved in getting points for this team.
His shooting % is down right now, if he gets it back over 10% he'll be right there. I'm not worried...he had one last night that was labeled far post that just nicked Quick's shoulder and went wide. He'll have a couple of games here where he picks up 4 in 5 games or whatever.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:24 AM
  #52
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,076
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I agree that Cheechoo is a crappy example of a 50-goal scorer, but Carter is not showing signs that he wont score 40 this year. So why take it away from him? I mean, if Carter had only 2 or 3 goals right now, I'd be concerned, but Carter has 7 in 18 games, which projects to roughly 34 goals. I mean, it's early yet, so he has time to improve those numbers. His assist total shot way up though, which is nice to see that he is still involved in getting points for this team.
I would call Carter a 40-goal scorer. He has scored 40 goals; by my definition above, that makes him a 40-goal scorer.

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:24 AM
  #53
IrishSniper87
Registered User
 
IrishSniper87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Media, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 13,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
No, he scored 50. HUGE difference.

Kovalchuk is a 40 goal scorer. Heatley is a 40 goal scorer.

Not Carter, not after one year at 40+.
Heatley scored 50 goals TWICE.

Kovy scored 50 goals TWICE.

Plus Heater and Kovy are well on their way to hitting 50 again.

Sometimes I really think you argue just for the sake of arguing, without real logic. I mean, how can you say Heater and Kovy are not 50 goal scorers?

IrishSniper87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:25 AM
  #54
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,889
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Hmm, semantics.

I would say that the label applies if the player has done it. Cheechoo scored 50 goals in a season, so he's a 50-goal scorer, even if he never scores more than 15 for the rest of his career.

Meh, to each his own.
The context is forward-looking:

Quote:
"To say we'd rather have Langkow than Carter, a 40 goal scorer, is idiotic."
"40 goal scorer" is used as forward-looking.

By this logic, we'd accept an offer of Cheechoo for Carter, since the former is a "50 goal scorer".

It is especially odd coming from Jester, who loves his "sample size" argument - but only when it fits his narrative I guess

Whatever, you are likely correct: "to each his own". It may be mere semantics.

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:26 AM
  #55
dbr2
Lockout Beard
 
dbr2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,340
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to dbr2
Patrick Sharp.

Still one of my favorite players.

dbr2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:28 AM
  #56
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,889
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Heatley scored 50 goals TWICE.

Kovy scored 50 goals TWICE.

Plus Heater and Kovy are well on their way to hitting 50 again.
So what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Sometimes I really think you argue just for the sake of arguing, without real logic.
You should try to be more openminded.

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:30 AM
  #57
IrishSniper87
Registered User
 
IrishSniper87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Media, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 13,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
The context is forward-looking:



"40 goal scorer" is used as forward-looking.

By this logic, we'd accept an offer of Cheechoo for Carter, since the former is a "50 goal scorer".

It is especially odd coming from Jester, who loves his "sample size" argument - but only when it fits his narrative I guess

Whatever, you are likely correct: "to each his own". It may be mere semantics.
First of all, 40-goal scorer is NOT forward minded, NOT AT ALL. It is a title based on PAST ACHIEVEMENT.

You are boiling this down into a situation that is too simplified, just to make a point.

Cheechoo and Carter are 2 very different situation. One is younger, creates his own chances, and has a higher chance to find repeat success.

The other is older, feeds off others, and does not have a high chance to find repeat success.

Just because Cheechoo is a 50-goal scorer does not mean you send your 40 goal scorer for him. Your point is invalid. When you trade players, situation, the cap and the future are big parts of the trade. You example only takes into account one thing, the past. Trades are for the future and the present.

Make things as simple as possible JXC, but not simpler.

IrishSniper87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:34 AM
  #58
IrishSniper87
Registered User
 
IrishSniper87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Media, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 13,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
So what?

You should try to be more openminded.
So what? haha. You are so funny. The title 50-goal scorer is a title given to players who have achieved something. Not prospects with potential to score 50 goal scorers. They would be potential 50-goal scorers.

I am trying to be openminded, but I have come to the conclusion that being openminded and trying to be different all the time are not the same thing.

IrishSniper87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:34 AM
  #59
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,076
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
The context is forward-looking:


"40 goal scorer" is used as forward-looking.

By this logic, we'd accept an offer of Cheechoo for Carter, since the former is a "50 goal scorer".
Gotcha.

Obviously, things aren't that black and white. It would be like suggesting the Flyers trade anyone for Wayne Gretzky because he's the league's only 90-goal scorer. If anyone's just going by the numbers on the page, I don't know what to tell you...

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:38 AM
  #60
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,889
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
First of all, 40-goal scorer is NOT forward minded, NOT AT ALL. It is a title based on PAST ACHIEVEMENT.
Well then it is immaterial to whether we'd rather have Carter than Langkow.

Here is what was said: "Wow, really? A 60 - 70 point guy for a Point Per Game 40 goal scorer?"

The implication is clear.

But yes it it true - it is semantics, by and large.

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:42 AM
  #61
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Wow, thank you for quoting so I can see the commentary.

1) Apparently JXC does not understand the context of a "sample size" argument v. a factual statement: "Jeff Carter scored 40+ goals in the NHL."

2) Stating that you get the title "40 goal scorer" if you actually scored 40 goals in the NHL does not imply anything forward looking at all. In fact, it is explicitly backward looking...player X scored (notice the past tense) 40 goals in the NHL; therefore, player X is a "40 goal scorer" in the NHL.

3) Past achievements are not inherently predictive of future achievements. Jason Blake is a 40-goal scorer, I would be SHOCKED to see him do it again. Brian Gionta is a 40-goal scorer, I would be surprised if he did it again. However, just because you don't think they'll do it again doesn't mean you can take the accomplishment away from them; they earned the title in the hardest hockey league in the world.

It's only when you begin to use past achievements to predict future achievements that "sample size" is part of the argument.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:45 AM
  #62
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,889
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I am trying to be openminded, but I have come to the conclusion that being openminded and trying to be different all the time are not the same thing.
I don't try to be different all the time. Sometimes it just works out that way:

- I won't genuflect to Richards until he shows me a Captain's work ethic on faceoffs.

- I just don't like players like Carter. I know they are a fact of life, I just don't like 'em. Gagne dittoes, alas.

- I liked Randy Jones. I thought he played very well when forced into top four until his hip gave away.

- I think anointing Ryan Parent as "solid shutdown" is laughable.

- I recognized that Hatcher and Rathje played NHL ice hockey with injuries that would make most people here unable to carry a full laundry basket without wincing.

- I thought it was senseless to label John Stevens a bum at the same time as nearly half of his roster was being labeled bums.

I think maybe that's it.

Hopefully you recall that I defended Carle and Coburn when they were being torn to shreds by the mob here, just earlier this year.

Go look at pages 4 through 6 of last night's GDT to see what running with the crowd looks like (Boucher-bashing).

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:46 AM
  #63
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,889
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It's only when you begin to use past achievements to predict future achievements that "sample size" is part of the argument.
Thank you for making my point.

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:48 AM
  #64
claude boivin lives
flat out spectacular
 
claude boivin lives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 2,845
vCash: 500
How are you guys still talking about Carter and Langkow? This thread was made to discuss the fruits of Claude Boivin. Can you imagine how many Cups we'd have won by now had if we had held onto this...



And then Farwell takes the centerpiece of our dynasty, and flushes it right down the ****ing drain. That's definitely what got him fired.

claude boivin lives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:49 AM
  #65
IrishSniper87
Registered User
 
IrishSniper87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Media, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 13,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Well then it is immaterial to whether we'd rather have Carter than Langkow.

Here is what was said: "Wow, really? A 60 - 70 point guy for a Point Per Game 40 goal scorer?"

The implication is clear.

But yes it it true - it is semantics, by and large.
The implication is clear that Carter has scored 40 goals and is currently a PPG player, while the other guy is not.

It is a quick way to write-off a trade as dumb. You could dive deeper into it and find more objections, but like I said in a previous post, you are looking at this too simply.

Go ahead and propose your Cheechoo for Carter trade then. I mean, Cheechoo hasn't even been a decent player since 06-07 which is what is important. Cheechoo's 50 goal campaign was years ago. I said in a previous post that while you cant take that away from him, he has little to no chance of repeating his success, so why bother?

I see your point, and will mention that 40-goal scorer also implies current performance. Heatley by the way, is on pace for 49-51 goals this season. 40 goal scorer my ass, haha.

IrishSniper87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:50 AM
  #66
BlueCollarCaptain
 
BlueCollarCaptain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: St. Catharines, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 122
vCash: 500
Sharp or Roenick.

BlueCollarCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:51 AM
  #67
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,503
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Mark Recchi/John LeClair. I know LeClair is done but seeing him in a Pens uniform was painful. Recchi would be a solid 3rd/4th liner on this team now and could have helped last year as well as other years since his departure. Also Forsberg the first time.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:54 AM
  #68
Wolfy
The Hobbit Rules!
 
Wolfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 3,267
vCash: 500
Randy Jones, I've been crying every day since we lost him.

Wolfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:55 AM
  #69
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Randy Jones, I've been crying every day since we lost him.
I too think it has been a real loss to the Phantoms.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 11:55 AM
  #70
dbr2
Lockout Beard
 
dbr2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,340
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to dbr2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Randy Jones, I've been crying every day since we lost him.
????

dbr2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 12:02 PM
  #71
IrishSniper87
Registered User
 
IrishSniper87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Media, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 13,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I too think it has been a real loss to the Phantoms.
win!

IrishSniper87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 12:18 PM
  #72
mm6492
Registered User
 
mm6492's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,518
vCash: 500
Mike York

mm6492 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 12:25 PM
  #73
might2mash
Post-apocalyptic
 
might2mash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South Bend
Country: United States
Posts: 4,616
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to might2mash
Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
Mike York
Geoff Sanderson

might2mash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 12:54 PM
  #74
BobbyClarkeFan16
Registered User
 
BobbyClarkeFan16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
No, he scored 50. HUGE difference.

Kovalchuk is a 40 goal scorer. Heatley is a 40 goal scorer.

Not Carter, not after one year at 40+.
......I guess this means that Carter is just a 20 goal scorer and that the 46 goals he scored doesn't make him a 40 goal scorer. No wonder why people laugh at you. It's like arguing with an idiot, except that instead of you dragging people down to your level and beating them with experience, people have tarred and feathered you on every argument and you still come back for more. You must be some kind of masochist or something.

BobbyClarkeFan16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-19-2009, 01:06 PM
  #75
Murphy7
Drop the puck
 
Murphy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country:
Posts: 1,635
vCash: 500
Since I'm a little older, I go back to the separate trades of Dave Poulin and Brian Propp in 1990. Both were on the back half of their careers, but the Flyers threw away two serviceable players for nothing in return.
Poulin went on to play five more seasons, reached a Cup final and made a couple of other long playoff runs, and remained a solid shutdown center and penalty killer to the end.
Propp played four more seasons, but was getting too close to certain team records and had to be given away. He went to two Cup finals after leaving Philly, then got hurt, dealt to Hartford (to play for Paul Holmgren) and never really got back to his form with an awful team.
The Flyers were a game or two over .500 when GM Bobby Clarke (in his final season) started making a handful of deals in 1990. Sure, the Flyers might not have been Cup contenders, but they went 10 games under .500 after the trades started, then missed the playoffs the next five seasons (that year, they missed by 2 points, and they missed by 3, 4 and 4 in three other seasons). A very painful time to be a Flyers fan.

Murphy7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:26 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.