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Will the ref lose his job?

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04-14-2004, 12:40 AM
  #1
rye&ginger
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Will the ref lose his job?

1995: Kovalev play acts, the ref blows down the play which would have led to a crucial goal. The ref never does an NHL game again (from what I have heard)

EDIT: it was 1995, and the offical was did not officiate inthe playoffs for that year and the next year. Couldnt find news stories on the incident so I was running on memory.

2004: Kovalev is slashed, its clearly a penalty, and it directly leads to an OT goal for the offending team.


My solution: allow refs to call 'advantage' fouls. If there is an infraction, which may not warrant 2 minutes for whatever reason, the ref can signal an advantage to the team that was fouled. If that team loses poessession or is getting attacked with the puck the play can be stopped for a faceoff, or a hand off of possession as is done in lacrose. This works in sports like soccer and rugby very well, and allows play to continue for very minor infractions.

Plays like this are heard about for years and years and its really the goals, and saves, and the performances of the players that need to be focussed on. Not bad calls.


Last edited by rye&ginger: 04-14-2004 at 05:05 PM.
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Old
04-14-2004, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
1994: Kovalev play acts, the ref blows down the play which would have led to a crucial goal. The ref never does an NHL game again (from what I have heard)
That was Andy van Hellemond. He is the NHL's Director Of Officiating.

All that happened to him after that call, was he just didn't move on in the 1995 playoffs.

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04-14-2004, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
That was Andy van Hellemond. He is the NHL's Director Of Officiating.

All that happened to him after that call, was he just didn't move on in the 1995 playoffs.
Hey R&G

I am not singling you out but I am surprised alot of HABS fans from what I've read are more pissed with the ref then Kovalev who obviously gave up on the play trying to draw the penalty.

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04-14-2004, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
1994: Kovalev play acts, the ref blows down the play which would have led to a crucial goal. The ref never does an NHL game again (from what I have heard)
It was not 1994.

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04-14-2004, 08:44 AM
  #5
Harold Snepsts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
1994: Kovalev play acts, the ref blows down the play which would have led to a crucial goal. The ref never does an NHL game again (from what I have heard)

2004: Kovalev is slashed, its clearly a penalty, and it directly leads to an OT goal for the offending team.
Overall I think the officiating has been terrible in just about every series I've watched. Ridiculously inconsistent. Falling for players diving. Huge non-calls.

But I wouldn't say that Kovalev slash was "clearly a penalty." He took one on the hands, but it didn't look like a terribly wicked slash.

And no, I'm not a Boston fan or a Montreal-hater.

It was marginal for sure. But that kind of thing happens a lot during the playoffs. Most of the blame falls squarely on Kovalev when he stopped playing (while carrying the puck no less) in a double OT game to try and draw the refs attention to the slash.

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04-14-2004, 10:23 AM
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The reason the play led to a goal is because Kovalev gave up on the play. He cant do that. You cannot assume a penalty.

And I dont think he was hurt either. A slash on the top of the glove (the most padded piece of equipment a player wears) would not force a player to do what Kovalev did.

I blame Kovalev.

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04-14-2004, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
It was not 1994.
Correct. It was 1995.

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04-14-2004, 11:22 AM
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Kovalev acted like an idiot, and he cost his team big time. There was no reason for him to even feign being hurt. He was barely even touched, and taking out Souray was just pathetic. I wonder what was said in the lockerroom post-game to him.....It couldn't have been beneficial. The Habs are in a hole, and they have to dig themselves out of it, with or without the performances their players feel like they need to make :/

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04-14-2004, 11:28 AM
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As a Hab fan, I say don't blame it on Kovalev, blame it on Souray.

The guy blames Kovalev for running into him when SOURAY had HIS head down, and smacked into Kovalev. And what the Hell was Souray doing there anyway? He blames Kovalev for giving up the puck when nobody was in the defensive zone to back up the play. HELLO Sheldon! You're the defenseman!

Also blame Theodore. If it weren't for his putrid goaltending, it wouldn't have gone into overtime.

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04-14-2004, 11:32 AM
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Im not a Habs fan, and I thought there should have been a penalty there. The slash looked like it was above the glove on the wrist and that would have hurt like hell.. Kovalev should have done a "Ribeiro".

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04-14-2004, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Albino
As a Hab fan, I say don't blame it on Kovalev, blame it on Souray.

The guy blames Kovalev for running into him when SOURAY had HIS head down, and smacked into Kovalev. And what the Hell was Souray doing there anyway? He blames Kovalev for giving up the puck when nobody was in the defensive zone to back up the play. HELLO Sheldon! You're the defenseman!

Also blame Theodore. If it weren't for his putrid goaltending, it wouldn't have gone into overtime.

blame Souray for carrying the puck while a player embellishing an injury skates right into him with no regard for anyone except getting off the ice?

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04-14-2004, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
blame Souray for carrying the puck while a player embellishing an injury skates right into him with no regard for anyone except getting off the ice?
Umm, maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought Kovalev was carrying the puck. At least, while I was watching the game last night, that's what I saw. Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly...at any rate, stupid, stupid move by Kovalev. It certainly did not appear (at first glance or on the replay) to be anything more than a tap on the glove, certainly not enough to cause the amount of pain he acted like. And to take his own man out of the play...that was just awful for them. Not that I disagreed with the outcome, but still...

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04-14-2004, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G_Love
Umm, maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought Kovalev was carrying the puck....
Nah he just let it float off into nowhere and stared at his wrist. It was floating and floated by Souray and he was about to get it, but Kovalev ran into him, the puck finds Murray's stick and Theodore failed to make the big save to keep his team in it.

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04-14-2004, 12:02 PM
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Man this is so funny! Stop looking at the tree and see the forest!

The Kovalev incident is a reflection of the situation in the NHL today. Since when does the rules books allow for using you stick to stop another player? I understand that the referees allow for some of it, but the bottom line is that you can't use your stick for anything else then to play the puck. If the rules we applied properly, these type of incident would not append. Can someone exeplain why in the third period and on the rule book goes out the window? The ref dosen't want to influence a game? Well no-call also influence the game... what about the interferance call on the goaly during the Cal-Van game?

One can say that if the ref was to call everything that would play all the time on PP or PK... yes and what is the problem whit that? If you get call a penalty is because you did something wrong...live with it.

You could also say that they can't see everting... WHY? there are two of them... In my office if we were two of us overlooking our responsabilities, be sure that we would get fire!

The game is not was it used to be... the game is not was it was meant to be.... If one day the NHL dies, this will be one of the many cause of death!

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04-14-2004, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes
Im not a Habs fan, and I thought there should have been a penalty there. The slash looked like it was above the glove on the wrist and that would have hurt like hell.. Kovalev should have done a "Ribeiro".
Kovalev DID do a "Ribeiro", only this time the refs didnt buy it, and it cost the Habs the game.

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04-14-2004, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Cutter
Man this is so funny! Stop looking at the tree and see the forest!

The Kovalev incident is a reflection of the situation in the NHL today. Since when does the rules books allow for using you stick to stop another player? I understand that the referees allow for some of it, but the bottom line is that you can't use your stick for anything else then to play the puck. If the rules we applied properly, these type of incident would not append. Can someone exeplain why in the third period and on the rule book goes out the window? The ref dosen't want to influence a game? Well no-call also influence the game... what about the interferance call on the goaly during the Cal-Van game?

One can say that if the ref was to call everything that would play all the time on PP or PK... yes and what is the problem whit that? If you get call a penalty is because you did something wrong...live with it.

You could also say that they can't see everting... WHY? there are two of them... In my office if we were two of us overlooking our responsabilities, be sure that we would get fire!

The game is not was it used to be... the game is not was it was meant to be.... If one day the NHL dies, this will be one of the many cause of death!
Over analysis here. Green didnt tomahawk chop him on the hand. It was a slash that happens about 50+ times throughout the course of a hockey game. I am not saying it should or shouldnt be called. The problem lies in the fact that Kovalev took it upon himself to try and embellish it a bit. He assumed his acting would result in a penalty.

He assumed wrong...and the Habs lost a very, very important game.

Slashing will not aid in the death of the NHL.

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04-14-2004, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
blame Souray for carrying the puck while a player embellishing an injury skates right into him with no regard for anyone except getting off the ice?
I was at the game and I've seen the replay a dozen times. Souray obviously knew Kovalev grabbed his wrist, and lost the puck, because he went after the loose puck. What he didn't do was keep his head up. Had he kept his head up, he would have either a) Avoided Kovalev or B) Passed the puck in the defensive zone to a wide open Rivet on the right side.

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04-14-2004, 12:57 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Albino
I was at the game and I've seen the replay a dozen times. Souray obviously knew Kovalev grabbed his wrist, and lost the puck, because he went after the loose puck. What he didn't do was keep his head up. Had he kept his head up, he would have either a) Avoided Kovalev or B) Passed the puck in the defensive zone to a wide open Rivet on the right side.
Maybe he thought at least Kovalev would have the decency not to get in his way after dropping the puck?

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04-14-2004, 12:59 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smail
Maybe he thought at least Kovalev would have the decency not to get in his way after dropping the puck?
It's Souray's responsibility to play smart defense. You can't go around skating with your head down assuming your teammates will not be in the way. Yes, Kovalev is partly to blame, but he supposedly has the slash as an excuse. Souray should have played smarter. Add to it that Souray was making dumb decisions all night, and it isn't too far-fetched to believe that he wasn't thinking straight on that play.

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04-14-2004, 01:24 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Cutter
Man this is so funny! Stop looking at the tree and see the forest!

The Kovalev incident is a reflection of the situation in the NHL today. Since when does the rules books allow for using you stick to stop another player? I understand that the referees allow for some of it, but the bottom line is that you can't use your stick for anything else then to play the puck. If the rules we applied properly, these type of incident would not append. Can someone exeplain why in the third period and on the rule book goes out the window? The ref dosen't want to influence a game? Well no-call also influence the game... what about the interferance call on the goaly during the Cal-Van game?

One can say that if the ref was to call everything that would play all the time on PP or PK... yes and what is the problem whit that? If you get call a penalty is because you did something wrong...live with it.

You could also say that they can't see everting... WHY? there are two of them... In my office if we were two of us overlooking our responsabilities, be sure that we would get fire!

The game is not was it used to be... the game is not was it was meant to be.... If one day the NHL dies, this will be one of the many cause of death!
your first year watching?

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04-14-2004, 02:02 PM
  #21
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Sorry, but this is just laughable.

Has the officiating been bad this season? Hell yeah, as bad as it's probably ever been. But let's be real, more than anything else, many Canadiens fans are just shocked and outright pissed off for losing the game in such a lame way. Frankly, I don't blame them. You always want to go down fighting, not beat yourself - especially in such a boneheaded, selfish way.

Blaming the refs is not the answer though, especially considering what happened with Riberio the night before...and knowing Kovalev tends to take dives...and realizing that this is a double OT game where the refs already gave Montreal a PP...and seeing that the slash wasn't a wild swing or two hander. The reality is, it's not a clear cut case that a play like that is gonna be called.

The fact is, Kovalev committed the ultimate sin: he selfishly gave up on the play. You just don't hang your teammates out to dry like that. Players finish the play with broken bones for crying out loud. There is just no excuse for Kovalev to let up, put his head down and forget about his team or the game. No excuse.

I think what's really going on here is a lot of Montreal fans are shocked, pissed and suffering the agony of seeing their team lose in an awful manner. I don't blame them one bit. But let's see it for what it is.

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04-14-2004, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GagsIsDaMan
Hey R&G

I am not singling you out but I am surprised alot of HABS fans from what I've read are more pissed with the ref then Kovalev who obviously gave up on the play trying to draw the penalty.
Im sure Habs fans are pissed at both.

Im not a Habs fan. I used to hate them actually....now I have no feeling towards them, and would rather see Boston advance.

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04-14-2004, 05:09 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBruinmaker
Blaming the refs is not the answer though, especially considering what happened with Riberio the night before...and knowing Kovalev tends to take dives...and realizing that this is a double OT game where the refs already gave Montreal a PP...and seeing that the slash wasn't a wild swing or two hander. The reality is, it's not a clear cut case that a play like that is gonna be called.

The refs still made a mistake. They made a choice not to call that penalty and it led to a goal. You say because it was double OT it wasnt a penalty, OK but that attitude it was people are questioning and laugh at. Name another sport where a foul's definintion changed depending on the time on the clock...I cant think of one that does this to any extent to what we see in hockey.

And that earlier Habs PP was 100% legit. It was a bear hug that prevented a great chance on goal, and then a non-call led to a chance on goal. The later situation was wrong.

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04-14-2004, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
The refs still made a mistake. They made a choice not to call that penalty and it led to a goal. You say because it was double OT it wasnt a penalty, OK but that attitude it was people are questioning and laugh at. Name another sport where a foul's definintion changed depending on the time on the clock...I cant think of one that does this to any extent to what we see in hockey.

And that earlier Habs PP was 100% legit. It was a bear hug that prevented a great chance on goal, and then a non-call led to a chance on goal. The later situation was wrong.
I don't see that slash being worthy of the big time complaining I've seen. The fact is, if Kovalev didn't quite on the play and put his head down, the breakaway probably never would have happened and people wouldn't be up in arms.

You can look at it your way, that's fine, I just disagree.

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04-14-2004, 06:18 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
Name another sport where a foul's definintion changed depending on the time on the clock...I cant think of one that does this to any extent to what we see in hockey.
That's like comparing apples to oranges. Each sport has its own way of officiating. Hockey has always been like this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
and then a non-call led to a chance on goal. The later situation was wrong.
It wasn't wrong. The referees judged the play to not be a penalty. That is well within their rights as referees. You might not agree with their judgment, but that's all it is....a disagreement between you and the officials. It wasn't wrong.

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