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Some thoughts on Fleury..

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Old
11-20-2009, 04:37 AM
  #76
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I think Fleury played his best hockey when he had Conklin pressuring him for starts. I feel when Fleury knows his #1 position is secure, he's liable to blow a lot more games than when he has someone such as Conklin challenging his time. I think Fleury/Conklin was the best tandem the Pens have seen in net in, oh I don't know, forever.

Fleury will **** the bed in this month going into the next, then come around like always after around New Year or the All-star break (Olympic break in this case). Then he'll go on a tear leading us into the playoffs. It's become a Penguin tradition.

I do feel for your general disappointment, but there still isn't anyone for whom I'd trade Fleury. He still has a lot of learning to do, and he's doing it - slowly but surely. I feel like Fleury's best years are still well ahead of him.

And... we're still only 2 pts removed from being tied for 1st place in the entire Eastern Conference. Considering 5 of our 6 roster D-men are all ailing and all the other injuries we've faced, that's pretty damned impressive and I credit Fleury for helping keep us afloat. He'll be fine.

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Old
11-20-2009, 05:47 AM
  #77
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I never liked MAF, but he does have big moments. Usually he's doing something completely stupid and can never handle the puck so I will rarely give him props.

Watching other teams goalies do the most simple and mundane puck movement always leaves me asking myself WTF already??! Why cant MAF just do that? I dont care, I'd rather just not like him than over analyze the crap he pulls most nights. He's good, he's bad, he's good whatever. He gets it done, but it gives me a headache watching the guy.

As for the Olympics, I say he could be on a team loaded with super stars, but once he starts giving up rebounds other teams eat up and playing the puck poorly he's gone. IMO I'd start Brodeur.

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11-20-2009, 05:55 AM
  #78
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I really think that Fleury needs a solid backup-goalie like Conklin who can really make Fleury pressure himself to really show that he's our #1.
He can be frustrating to watch at times, yes, but I for one does not sit on the edge of my seat every time he's out to play the puck now everytime, and that is atleast an improvment over last season.

I think that is the biggest problem, we do not have a competent enough backup goalie to "threaten" Fleury for his goalie position.

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11-20-2009, 06:02 AM
  #79
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Lundqvist $6.875M
Luongo $6.75M
Ward $6.3M
Miller $6.25M
Giguere $6M
Backstrom $6M
Kipprusoff $5.83M
Turco $5.7M
Vocoun $5.7M
Huet $5.625M
Nabokov $5.375M
Brodeur $5.2M
Fleury $5M
Thomas $5M
DiPietro $4.5M
Theodore $4.5M
Bryzgalov $4.25M
Toskala $4M

Here's list of some number one goalies, that we can compare to Fleury and his long term $5M contract (cap hit). There's some cotracts that are ending and some that are just starting, but if we compare to all of those contracts, I think Fleury's contract is one of the best in this league if we look at the number of years and the cap hit + age and experience.

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Old
11-20-2009, 07:06 AM
  #80
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MAF was frustrating last night, Carkner's goal and the two Phillips goals were mud. He was a big part of the reason we lost that game. Vented. He allows brain fart goals like every other goalie in the league. He is still a bit too inconsistent to win a Vezina, like most goalies his age. (I don't like to use the word elite, it's too subjective.)

It's fine to vent, but nothing's going to change. The Penguins are going to live and die with MAF for the length of his contract. He cap number isn't bad compared to other starters. He is still young. He isn't going anywhere. We all know, including Shero, how good is he is at the top of his game.

Last playoffs he was stellar when he needed to be, in all of the Cup finals wins he was our best player. He allowed two goals in two elimination games. IMO, he wins the Conn Smythe if we don't take dumb penalties and lose game 5 2-0 instead of 5-0.

He was also our best player in the October streak earlier this year, and was stellar in both playoff pushes (March-April time frame) the last two years.

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Old
11-20-2009, 07:13 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VBDE View Post
I really think that Fleury needs a solid backup-goalie like Conklin who can really make Fleury pressure himself to really show that he's our #1.
He can be frustrating to watch at times, yes, but I for one does not sit on the edge of my seat every time he's out to play the puck now everytime, and that is atleast an improvment over last season.

I think that is the biggest problem, we do not have a competent enough backup goalie to "threaten" Fleury for his goalie position.
I respectively disagree. I think Fleury's strong play with Conklin as his backup was coincidence. Fleury doesn't and shouldn't need a strong backup to motivate him. Fleury was/is/will be our number #1 for the length of his contract with about 99% certainty anyway.

In addition, the Penguins afford to can't use up cap space on a backup goalie, I doubt they'll ever spend more than 750K on one, while we have Fleury.

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11-20-2009, 07:16 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muscles4Malkin View Post
Lundqvist $6.875M
Luongo $6.75M
Ward $6.3M
Miller $6.25M
Giguere $6M
Backstrom $6M
Kipprusoff $5.83M
Turco $5.7M
Vocoun $5.7M
Huet $5.625M
Nabokov $5.375M
Brodeur $5.2M
Fleury $5M
Thomas $5M
DiPietro $4.5M
Theodore $4.5M
Bryzgalov $4.25M
Toskala $4M

Here's list of some number one goalies, that we can compare to Fleury and his long term $5M contract (cap hit). There's some cotracts that are ending and some that are just starting, but if we compare to all of those contracts, I think Fleury's contract is one of the best in this league if we look at the number of years and the cap hit + age and experience.




Should I like him more now?

How many millions does it take to learn how to play the puck and learn rebound control?

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11-20-2009, 07:24 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoplifter View Post
Should I like him more now?

How many millions does it take to learn how to play the puck and learn rebound control?
Good point and I agree that he sucks on those, but there are lot worse goalies out there in other attributes.

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11-20-2009, 07:32 AM
  #84
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I do agree for the most part about everything you said. In the playoffs, Fleury certainly did lay some eggs, but he would even that out with stealing a game every once in a while too. What bothers me about Fleury is the inconsistency. He started this season and looked as though he had taken that "next step." Soft goals were coming fewer and further between (for a stretch there the only way a puck was going in was off a deflection) and he seemed to really be controling the game, both in helping his defensemen effectively clear the zone, and eating up rebounds. Needless to say, I think he has taken a step back from that.

The thing with Fleury this year is he's playing behind a descimated team where the defense has been the hardest hit, but we are also not scoring goals. In a two game stretch this season, it didn't matter if Flower let in 2 goals or 20, we still would have lost because we couldn't put the puck in the net.

I am not one that has ever been overly critical of Fleury, but at the same rate, the excuses of "he is still young" or "his development was mismanaged" no longer seem like viable excuses to me. He has had a goaltending coach for the last handful of years, and he is reaching the point in a hockey player's career where they begin to put it all together.

What I do think is a valid excuse though is that he just isn't a guy who's mentally tough. Fleury has always thrived in games with high shot totals. To me that screams lack of focus. What makes Marty Brodeur so great, in my mind, is that he was able to keep himself focused facing shot totals in the low 20's throughout the hay day of his career. Fleury hasn't proven he can do that. It seems as though the goals scored on him in a particular game have an inverse relationship with the amount of shots he faces, which shouldn't be the case. Another example of this is that over the course of his career, when he had a mediocre backup, he has played some of his worst hockey, but give him a goalie who can platoon starts with him, and all of a sudden Flower plays lights out.

Call me an optimistic fan, but I do think Fleury will be able to put it together and be a top 5 goaltender in this league. I'm saying this because if he doesn't, he is one of the biggest wastes of natural talent and ability that this game will probably ever see.

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Old
11-20-2009, 08:54 AM
  #85
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Every year around the same time we see another thread like this, so quite frankly, none of this surprises me. Give it another month or two and everyone will be back on his bandwagon, and this thread will become yet another faded memory.

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11-20-2009, 09:16 AM
  #86
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MAF take nights off IMO. I don't think you can blame the D on his recent sting of weak goals, from the odd angled shots to the slaps shots from the top of the circle with no screen. He does seem to step it up when he has to, so my thought is that it has to be a mental thing. Just my 2 cents, pretty sure this is the first time I've posted about hockey on here this season... haha.

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11-20-2009, 09:24 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoplifter View Post
Should I like him more now?

How many millions does it take to learn how to play the puck and learn rebound control?
Show me one goalie that is absolutely perfect in every facet of the game? In all honesty there are plenty of other goalies in the league right now that are getting paid more than MAF, are also playing considerably WORSE. On top of that, they also don't have to rely on 4-5 AHL d-men to protect them either. All I gotta say is look at how well MAF was playing when we actually had a healthy team out there, and not so much how he's been playing over the past couple of weeks. There are very few players on this team that have looked particularly impressive during this rough stretch, so I honestly don't see why we gotta single out MAF in particular.

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11-20-2009, 09:33 AM
  #88
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McKee was a big factor in Fleury looking good this year... just like Scuds was last year in the playoffs. Without a solid shot-blocking defensemen we have a huge hole in our defense. Eaton can't play every shift.

Fleury's a good goalie, but in this league you need help to be successful.

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11-20-2009, 09:42 AM
  #89
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I used to worry about Fleury, but I don't anymore. He may be inconsistent, but his ability to step up with massive efforts (Game 5 in '08 finals; Game 7 in '09 finals) eases my concerns greatly. He's a money goalie, if you ask me.

Can't kill a No. 1 goalie when you have four out of six regular blue-liners out, one returning that night and one who probably wouldn't have played had others been healthier.

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11-20-2009, 09:50 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPenalty View Post
McKee was a big factor in Fleury looking good this year... just like Scuds was last year in the playoffs. Without a solid shot-blocking defensemen we have a huge hole in our defense. Eaton can't play every shift.

Fleury's a good goalie, but in this league you need help to be successful.
That Guerin photo never gets old. Maybe one of my favorite hockey photos ever.



I can agree with Jacob to some extent. I think everyone was hoping this could be the year that Fleury becomes a full time top 5 goalie and for a while it looked like he was. He has looked mediocre and sloppy lately but ALL goalies go through rough stretches each season.

And he was pretty sketchy in the playoffs last year, IMO. A couple of dominate performances against Philly, a lousy series vs Washington and hit or miss against the Wings. Much better the year before.

To me, at the end of the day he's still a supremely talented flake. He continues to improve slowly but he hasn't really taken the massive leap that he appears physically capable of.

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11-20-2009, 09:55 AM
  #91
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That Guerin photo never gets old. Maybe one of my favorite hockey photos ever.



I can agree with Jacob to some extent. I think everyone was hoping this could be the year that Fleury becomes a full time top 5 goalie and for a while it looked like he was. He has looked mediocre and sloppy lately but ALL goalies go through rough stretches each season.

And he was pretty sketchy in the playoffs last year, IMO. A couple of dominate performances against Philly, a lousy series vs Washington and hit or miss against the Wings. Much better the year before.

To me, at the end of the day he's still a supremely talented flake. He continues to improve slowly but he hasn't really taken the massive leap that he appears physically capable of.
What can we say about someone like Luongo then, who has been struggling considerably so far this year? That he's regressing at 30 years of age? Lundqvist is considered to be one of the best goalies in the league (and one of the HIGHEST PAID), yet even he will beltch out the occassional stinker from time to time, not to mention his post-season brain-cramps!

NEedless to say, I don't think MAF is any more inconsistent than most of the elite goalies in this league. Unless MAF can get an ass-tight defensive-mind team in front of him like Brodeur had for most of his career, people shouldn't expect him to come out looking like a perennial Vezina candidate game after game.

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11-20-2009, 09:55 AM
  #92
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I think Crosby deserves more criticism than Fleury.

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11-20-2009, 09:56 AM
  #93
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I think Crosby deserves more criticism than Fleury.
We're glad you think so.

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11-20-2009, 10:12 AM
  #94
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What can we say about someone like Luongo then, who has been struggling considerably so far this year? That he's regressing at 30 years of age? Lundqvist is considered to be one of the best goalies in the league (and one of the HIGHEST PAID), yet even he will beltch out the occassional stinker from time to time, not to mention his post-season brain-cramps!

NEedless to say, I don't think MAF is any more inconsistent than most of the elite goalies in this league. Unless MAF can get an ass-tight defensive-mind team in front of him like Brodeur had for most of his career, people shouldn't expect him to come out looking like a perennial Vezina candidate game after game.
Yeah, I acknowledged that even the best go through bad stretches each year. Like when we drop 5 or 6 on Brodeur......

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11-20-2009, 10:32 AM
  #95
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Nice to see that we haven't had any fresh "anti-Staal" threads recently though.

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Old
11-20-2009, 10:51 AM
  #96
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he was 1/3 of the reason for the turnaround of the franchise, and played his best games in his career when we needed him the most.

I cant complain about a guy that shows up when it MATTERS


he may be inconsistent, but dammit he's CLUTCH.

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11-20-2009, 11:22 AM
  #97
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MAF is not elite yet and does have a tendancy to go into both hot and cold streaks. He actually does worse the less amount of shots he faces.


I dunno I think he will be what he is.

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11-20-2009, 11:25 AM
  #98
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MAF is not elite yet and does have a tendancy to go into both hot and cold streaks. He actually does worse the less amount of shots he faces.


I dunno I think he will be what he is.
The Detroit Red Wings would tell you otherwise. I find it funny how everyone in here was calling MAF arguably one of the best goalies in the league up till when we were 12-3, but as soon as all these injuries started happening and this team started slumping, everyone is doubting him again.

I'll leave you with this final thougt: If not for MAF, chances are that Lidstrom ties up the game in game 7 with that last second shot, we go into OT, and we potentially don't end up winning the cup. Good goalies know how to put up good stats, but GREAT goalies know how to get you the results when they matter most.

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11-20-2009, 11:29 AM
  #99
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The Detroit Red Wings would tell you otherwise. I find it funny how everyone in here was calling MAF arguably one of the best goalies in the league up till when we were 12-3, but as soon as all these injuries started happening and this team started slumping, everyone is doubting him again.
.
Thank God someone else feels this way.

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11-20-2009, 11:32 AM
  #100
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If not for MAF there might not have been any need for 7 games.

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