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Manifesto Part 2: Hope For The Current Habs

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Old
11-20-2009, 10:44 PM
  #26
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Toro View Post
I understand your frustration. but 6 years of Futility? i think not.

And i don't have the time required to show you how that statement is absolutely absurd. You probably would not understand anyway.
2x as far as the 2nd round
2x as far as the 1st round
1x out of the playoffs

and a start-over year that, 1/4 done, is not looking promising.

that's futility imo.
(in case you don't understand the word futile = incapable of producing any useful results... i'd say that's a pretty good definition of 5 seasons culminating in a complete overhaul)

what would you call it?

success?
good enough?
not bad?
average?
mediocre?

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Old
11-21-2009, 01:30 PM
  #27
Chuck Lefley*
 
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The Bottom Line

Thanks to everyone who took thew time to reply to my original post.

It looks as though it sparked even further debate last night.

[QUOTE=Chuck Lefley;22225364]Healthy debate usually comes from a diversity of reasonable opinions. Once again though I think that some posters continue to take things to extremes. Certainly everyone has a right to express their ideas,comments and viewpoints. It just seems that negativity seems to descend onto this Habs site with a little too much regularity.

The main thrust of this negativity seems to come from:
1. Organizational braintrust haters: the multitude of people who think that Gainey is an idiot and that Trevor Timmins is overrated.They absorb the blame for everything and receive little to no credit.

Fact: Gainey is the GM until either he decides to leave or the Molsons tell him to leave.


My original post was meant as a statement that explains why the Gainey Timmins Hate Club (GTHC) members who populate these boards should see a broader perspective. The bolded statement has a further purpose. The GTHC members can huff and puff all they want, but it does not change the fact that Gainey stays as long as he wants or as long as the Molsons want. This is not the movie Animal House, I doubt he is on double secret probation.

Ranting and raving about things that you cannot affect only gets the blood boiling. I would never have thought that a "calm,cool and collected" man like Gainey would become so disrespected. Rejean Houle was an absolute joke. To hear some members of the GTHC, one would think that Gainey is only marginally better.

Miller Time is an insightful and passionate poster. In my view, we actually share a lot of views in common. He still holds to the view that winning is everything, that there is one Cup winner and 29 losers every year.

It makes me really uncomfortable that I have started to give in to the new post-lockout NHL that has forced all teams into the middle. The new NHL means no dynasties and no dynasties means having to accept keeping fingers crossed just to make the playoffs. Thirty or fourty years ago was a time when not winning the Cup very difficult to swallow. A Habs team that went a couple of years without winning the Cup was a colossal failure, there was almost paini in the streets.

The closest thing to a dynasty in the new NHL is Detroit with 4 Cups in 13 years. Four Cups in 13 years would have had Sam Pollock fired.

The new NHL is alot harder enivronment in which to win a Cup, there are many more factors and variables than before. You need to work hard, build all levels of an organization and create windows of a few years here and there in which yourt chances of a Cup are better. Outside of those windows, the chances of winning are slim, but not impossible.

Where there is a chance there is hope...and where there is hope there is Habville.

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Old
11-21-2009, 01:40 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Chuck Lefley View Post

The new NHL is alot harder enivronment in which to win a Cup, there are many more factors and variables than before. You need to work hard, build all levels of an organization and create windows of a few years here and there in which yourt chances of a Cup are better. Outside of those windows, the chances of winning are slim, but not impossible.

Where there is a chance there is hope...and where there is hope there is Habville.
this is the point.

The "new" NHL makes it that much more important to have the right management team in place.

Mistakes, wasted assets, bad financial (contract) decisions, etc... can not be fixed as easily as in the past, and a few bad moves can cripple a franchise for a long time.

The flip side is that every team faces that reality, so, as you put it, there are a lot more "middle pack" teams. Only the cream of the crop (organization-wise) have been able/will be able to put themselves at the top of the pile year in year out.

We've had several years to see how our current management team is navigating this new reality, we haven't been the worse, but clearly, we have been very far from the best. This is a results business, no matter how much we love Gainey and what he was/is to the franchise, in his current role he's as accountable to the results, or lack thereof, as any GM in the league, regardless of their legacy as a player.

Is there "hope" that things could get better... sure.

but I'd rather watch my team effectively give itself the best shot at being at the top of the pile, than relying on crossing my fingers and "hoping" that things will get better.

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Old
11-21-2009, 01:54 PM
  #29
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Hindsight is 20/20

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Old
11-21-2009, 01:56 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Lefley View Post
There are several reasons I mentioned Gainey's history as a Cup winner:

1. There are people on this board who are so over-the-top in their criticism of Gainey that they need to be reminded that he is qualified to do the job. In fact he is much more qualified than the majority of GMs in their current postings.
2. As mentioned in my last post, he cares deeply about winning as a Canadien. He is a proven winner. Just because he does rant and rave in front of the media doesn't mean that he takes losing easily.

As for Gainey's record in Dallas, they had 5 100+ point seasons and were serious cup contenders for most of that stretch. Only one Cup though (and yes that was the pre-cap era).

I never once stated that he has not accepted responsibility for his moves. If futility is counted as not winning the Cup, then sure his years here as GM have been futile.

There is an undercurrent in your post, especially the comment about "...an optimist looks at those facts and sees "proof" of skill as GM..." that hints at being a Gainey-hater. I guess 14 years as a GM isn't good enough, even with a cup win and 6-100 point seasons. I am sure anybody could have done that.

Gainey wore a Habs sweater for all his career as a player. He bleeds the bleu,blanc et rouge. He has made gutsy moves in the past (Iginla for Niewendyk, the summer makeover this year). Sure he has made mistakes, but you wont ever see him evade responsibility.

Gainey lets the other GMs spew profanity at press conferences and make outrageous statements just for the shock value. He just keeps his cool in the most high pressure executive job in hockey. I love his response when asked about Halak's agent Twitter comments "I thought it was infantile". Classic.

I will continue to put faith in his approach to the organization because he has earned his way to his position. Despite what so many on these boards feel, Bob Gainey belongs as GM of the Habs.
While one has to appreciate your optimism, thoughtful approach and the respect you show almost to a point of devotion, I'd suggest that your argumentation is flawed. I consider myself a vigourous detractor of Gainey's work but certainly not a hater. Here's a little rebuttle of some of your points :

* The fact that he really cares about the team is a given for me ; people who suggest that he doesn't care just show their bad faith. But the fact that he is an hardcore Habs at heart doen not make him a qualified GM for the team. Rggie Houle might have cared more than anybody else but...

* You say that his long experience in Dallas and the Cup he won there is proof that he is a very good GM. I disagree. The NHL world has changed drasticly since them. And as it is in any field of work, being a capable employee in 1995 doesn't mean you still are one in 2009 if you have not properly adapted. Sometimes, the world just pass you by.

* Finally, to slightly correct your last proposition, I'd say that with his pedigree, experience past successes, he HAD earned his way to the position ; but 7 years filled with mistakes, cruel lack of vision and what I perceive as an archaic way of running a team HAS earned him his way out. And I think he's gonna leave on his own at the end of the year actually

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Old
11-21-2009, 02:11 PM
  #31
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Where can we get more rookies like this guy?


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Old
11-21-2009, 02:15 PM
  #32
Count of DannyKristo
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It's nice to be optimistic, but in this case it's the blind (Gainey) leading the blind (most of you). He took on SCOTT GOMEZ's contract. Do you all remember this? 7.3 million on the cap and on pace for 40 points. This team is going nowhere for the next 5 years and it's Gainey's fault. The only hope is to start looking toward the future and getting some top picks. You'd think most of you would be tired of following mediocrity for the past decade and a half, but I guess there are a lot of very young fans around here. The team is NOT making the playoffs this year, just forget about it. Next year will be a different story with Markov around but if you're holding out hope for this season, forget it.

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Old
11-21-2009, 02:15 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
in 6 years at the helm, Gainey "built" a team that had 1 really good regular season, 4 very average years, and was not once anywhere near sniffing a championship.
A Conference Championship is a bit more than a really good regular season. Come on and say it: One CONFERENCE championship. That's a GREAT regular season.

As for not even sniffing a championship, I guess you forgot how excited the city was, hundreds of thousands of cars sporting Habs banners, the atmosphere at the Bell Centre the night of the Rangers Comeback, the Ottawa win late in the season, the Maple LEafs win the final game, Games 1,2 and 7 at home against Boston.

Unfortunately, stuff happens sometimes. TWO out of the three motors of the PP, Markov and Streit, played hurt and the PP ratio plummeted. Then, Price sprung a leak while Biron played the four best consecutive games of his life, something he has never done before or since.

Still, the Koivu-Kovalev led group did give this city a real chance at a Cup. Neither Pittsburgh nor Detroit even scared the Habs that year. They lost in the end, but could hold their heads high.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
was forced to more or less start over, completely overhauling the bulk of his core, because the one he had built wasn't good enough.
The reason he had to completely overhaul his core is that Higgins and Komisarek and Plekanec and Andrei K. took major steps backwards last year. I don't fault Bob for not being able to foresee that the natural transition to the next leader group, and the comcomitant moving of Koivu and Kovalev to elder-statesmen status but keeping them on in secondary roles, became unthinkable.

Bob's choices were threefold:

1. Invest the team leadership once again in Koivu and Kovalev, despite their advancing ages;
2. Find new leadership on the trade and UFA markets;
3. Tank the next season or two before even trying.

Option 3 would really only be possible if the club would not spend to the Cap, because so much money was available due to the expiring contracts. Hwoever, not spending to the Cap is simply not an option in Montreal. When the Expos management broke faith with their fans, the franchise was lost. Perhaps the Habs could not be lost, but their value would be drastically cut for sure.

So Bob decided on Option 2, allowing much more time to rebuild than Option 1 would have allowed. Under Option 1, there would not really be any time to wait for the Subbans and so forth to mature, because the leaders skills would be eroding faster than the next group could improve.

The route that Bob took is the PRO-rebuilding route, with the added plus that the guys he brought in are all guys with great work ethic and willingness to backcheck and play for the team. Now, let's give him another a year or two to round out the squad and see if we can't have another crack at a Cup, this time for a 2-3 year window.

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11-21-2009, 02:40 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Steadfast View Post
It's nice to be optimistic, but in this case it's the blind (Gainey) leading the blind (most of you). He took on SCOTT GOMEZ's contract. Do you all remember this? 7.3 million on the cap and on pace for 40 points. This team is going nowhere for the next 5 years and it's Gainey's fault. The only hope is to start looking toward the future and getting some top picks. You'd think most of you would be tired of following mediocrity for the past decade and a half, but I guess there are a lot of very young fans around here. The team is NOT making the playoffs this year, just forget about it. Next year will be a different story with Markov around but if you're holding out hope for this season, forget it.
Nice to see such optimism the day after a HUGE road win against possibly the best team in the conference. I don't know why we bother playing these games on the ice given that you claim we have no hope. If you have kids, I hope your attitude is significantly sunnier with their prospects on anything in life.

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Old
11-21-2009, 02:52 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Lefley View Post
The main thrust of this negativity seems to come from:
1. Organizational braintrust haters: the multitude of people who think that Gainey is an idiot and that Trevor Timmins is overrated.They absorb the blame for everything and receive little to no credit.
Hmm, I love Gainey and think Timmins is doing a great job. But it doesn't really stop me from criticizing their mistakes either. I don't know if a hockey discussion forum can really avoid perceptions of negativity, really. I've been in this business for something close to 20 years now, I guess. There isn't much discussion generated by success success success and all kinds of happy rainbow lollipop prancing unicorn positivity. It would be boring. So I think you kind of have to expect a skewed distribution.
Quote:
2. Media watchers who just regurgitate the opinions of so-called hockey experts. Sometimes these "experts" are challenged and mocked. Sometimes not. The reality is that too many references to Tony Malinaro (for or against), Pierre Maguire etc. does little to contribute to the board. All it does is raise the profile of Tony or Pierre M-not a good thing.
But we're not very imaginative. Sometimes we need a starting point. We do actually get proposals from individuals on the board. But they aren't as well-attended, usually.
Quote:
...
If you are so focused on numbers, then try this on for size. Prospect A scores 200 points in his first three years in the NHL as a 10th overall pick, including 41 goals in his third year. Prospect B is chosen the same draft year, higher than prospect A. He is criticized for being a bust and does not even have a 30 goal season in his first three years. Applying the logic of so many people on these boards, Prospect A is clearly better than Prospect B, until you understand that Prospect A is Steve Vickers and Prospect B is Guy Lafleur. Applying the logic of the knee-jerk reactionaries here would have had Lafleur traded or sent to the minors. There are plenty of other less dramatic examples I can provide.
Well, I'd still rather have Carter or Perry or Parise or Getzlaf... or Brown or Seabrook or Kesler or Richards than Kostitsyn. Cherry-pick Vickers and Lafleur examples all you want, it doesn't mean that a mistake wasn't made. With full recognition that it's just hindsight and that the book on Kostitsyn isn't 100% closed yet. It's still a valid thing for people to complain about. One can filter out the knee-jerk extremes while still admitting that all is not lollipops and unicorns there.
Quote:
Fact: The world of the NHL is absolute. Every year there is 1 Cup winner and 29 losers. It doesn't matter if you reach the Cup finals or semi-finals one year, you could be out of the playoffs the next (see Carolina). Stretched out over the "16 years of the Canadiens Spinning Their Wheels". There have been 9 winners and 21 losers. DET(4),NJD (3),COL(2),,PIT,ANA,CAR,TAM,DAL,NYR. In the abolute world, all other teams are losers and "spinning their wheels". Oh, look who is part of the group of losers: BOS and PHI everyone's favourites in the East, CHI,VAN,CAL in the West.
Well, FACT: I'd trade our current reserve list for that of several other loser teams that are also spinning their wheels. FWIW. And a trip to the finals would have been a lot of fun. There are valid reasons why people are criticizing the team's lack of progress. Sure, filter out some of the lunatic fringe if you want. But there is justification for the dissatisfaction that remains.
Quote:
Current management has been blamed (on this board)for the injuries to the new free agents, who together have a much healthier history than the departed players.What?? First it was Gainey can't sign free agents, no one comes to Montreal. Then,Gainey signs free agents, just the wrong ones I guess.Another suggestion is that most of them should be traded (Marinaro suggests trading Spacek,Mara,Gill, 8 months after signing them as free agents.What?? That is a guaranteed way to never be able to sign free agents... again).
I hear that often. Where does the guarantee come from again? I mean, we can't afford to sign any free agents for the next 5 years anyway, so it's probably a moot point for us. But I'm sure somebody has gone through and cherry-picked the relevant examples. My belief is that for most NHL free agency signings, the primary motivating factor is money. I don't know how many players flip through past transaction lists and say, wait a sec, Team X traded Hal Gill at the last deadline, so I better not sign there. It just seems like an urban myth to me. I think our trades have to be predicated on the overall good of the hockey team. If we can get useful assets for players like Gill or Mara at the deadline, and/or if that helps us free up some money to retain more important players like Price or Plekanec, then I think we have to look at it. Urban myths be damned.
Quote:
The best chance to win is to create windows of opportunity over a few years. Anything, literally anything, can happen once you get in the playoffs.
Some would say that Gainey has failed to open the window, though...
Quote:
Here is a scenario for success in the spring of 2010: The Canadiens are finally healthy in March. Markov is back, Gionta is healthy. The D has rounded into form. The entire team has been consistently playing Martin's system for a couple of months. Price is dominant and playing with confidence.
... And yet the team lost too many games in October-December and misses the playoffs by 2 points. I mean, ok, hopefully we have better luck next year, then.

"Hopefully"? I don't think Pittsburgh or Washington or Philadelphia or Boston, say, entered the season just hoping they could squeeze into the playoffs. (Realistically... nobody admits publically to the limitations of their hopes, but realistically most are/should be aware of them). Yeah sure, maybe only 25% of the league or some similar number are at that level, and there doesn't have to be any shame in being in the 75% majority that has to have somewhat more modest hopes. But at the same time, I do think it's fair for both the fans and the people in charge to aspire to enter that top group. I guess it's all down to how you manage your aspiration after that. I'm pretty pragmatic about it, I think. I don't have much optimism for the current team. I don't let that stop me from liking Bob Gainey or Trevor Timmins or the players. But I'm not going to saddle up the unicorn for a trip over the rainbow either.

It's going to take some doing for this team to get into the top group. I personally think that will largely have to come from within, perhaps from some better-than-expected returns from young players like Subban or Leblanc or others. And it will also therefore take some time. But of course, anything can happen... who knows, maybe Gainey will find his own Sather-version of the Gomez trade and manage to rob some other GM blind and solve his problem. Maybe the cap will skyrocket and we'll be able to add another star player. Maybe, maybe. Just a few too many maybes in the equation for me to really preach optimism or much begrudge those who express a more pessimistic outlook.

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Old
11-21-2009, 03:33 PM
  #36
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You know, even with the mass turn around in players, a new coach, losing half our defence to injuries, our best player and now top winger, basically no secondary scoring and some very bad bounces we are still only 4 points behind Buffalo and 3rd place in the conference.

Most teams are still bunched up in the middle and they haven't had overcome near anything that the Habs have. All things being equal, we're looking like we're in pretty good shape and if things start to change i.e. injuries, a few godd bounces, the team gelling etc we could be in for a fairly solid year.

So for everyone who's losing their heads you need to take a step back and look at the other teams in the conference who are close to uss in points but don't have the adversity that's holding us down (for now) and understand that w do have a pretty solid team that's yet to play an entire game together! Let's bash Gainey if they suck after they've had a chance to play with the entire roster he built ok, deal?

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11-21-2009, 03:46 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
So for everyone who's losing their heads you need to take a step back and look at the other teams in the conference who are close to uss in points but don't have the adversity that's holding us down (for now) and understand that w do have a pretty solid team that's yet to play an entire game together! Let's bash Gainey if they suck after they've had a chance to play with the entire roster he built ok, deal?
I say no deal! I mean, why wait until April to say anything? It kind of defeats the purpose of a discussion board, IMHO. We can make projections. Maybe lots of wrong ones. But we see what we're seeing on the ice now, and it's all part of the game that you try to fit that into the bigger picture and project it ahead.

And anyway, a "pretty solid team"... especially if you don't see a lot of wiggle room for that team to get better over the next few years... may still be unsatisfying to many observers.

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11-21-2009, 04:47 PM
  #38
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A Conference Championship is a bit more than a really good regular season. Come on and say it: One CONFERENCE championship. That's a GREAT regular season.

As for not even sniffing a championship, I guess you forgot how excited the city was, hundreds of thousands of cars sporting Habs banners, the atmosphere at the Bell Centre the night of the Rangers Comeback, the Ottawa win late in the season, the Maple LEafs win the final game, Games 1,2 and 7 at home against Boston.

Unfortunately, stuff happens sometimes. TWO out of the three motors of the PP, Markov and Streit, played hurt and the PP ratio plummeted. Then, Price sprung a leak while Biron played the four best consecutive games of his life, something he has never done before or since.

Still, the Koivu-Kovalev led group did give this city a real chance at a Cup. Neither Pittsburgh nor Detroit even scared the Habs that year. They lost in the end, but could hold their heads high.
the excitement that year was great, and i certainly got swept up with it as well... but in the end the team sputtered in the playoffs, and the weaknesses of the roster were exposed, weaknesses that many people identified much earlier.
If anything, that year was a bigger disappointment, because instead of capitalizing on a pretty lucky season (almost no injuries, and a bunch of young players playing better than expected) and bolstering the team at the deadline (to fix the holes that were obvious, and give the team that extra edge to improve the odds of surviving the gruelling pace of the playoffs), all our management team did was weaken the team... trading away a veteran netminder playing the best hockey of his career for a pick 2 years down the road. As you pointed out, part of what sunk us was that our rookie goaltenders crumbled under the playoff pressure... don't think having a vet around might have helped avoid that?

the team certainly could hold their heads high, management, not so much. If I was in that chair, I'd have given myself a pretty harsh evaluation.

and then how did we build from that? we added 3 roster pieces (at very big cost), none of which worked out... the closest, Lang, did play well, but surprisingly, few people have discussed or brought up the very strong likelihood that his addition to the team contributed, at least in part, to the confidence issues Plekanec showed all year... no way to "prove" that, but it is pretty clear that his problem last season was confidence, so I'd say it's not a difficult connection to make.

In any case, I don't consider 2 wins in the 2nd round as being a success, nor is it getting a sniff at the cup.

the point is to have success in the playoffs. Regular season success is pretty empty if it results in a quick playoff exit. And even more empty when it is sandwiched between a non-playoff year and a narrow 8th place/1st round sweep season.

Shows it to be an anomaly (due to the lack of injuries and above expectation play of the supporting cast) more than the sign that the team was on a good path to success... Gainey acknowledged as much by dismantling the team 1 year after winning the conference title.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post

The reason he had to completely overhaul his core is that Higgins and Komisarek and Plekanec and Andrei K. took major steps backwards last year. I don't fault Bob for not being able to foresee that the natural transition to the next leader group, and the comcomitant moving of Koivu and Kovalev to elder-statesmen status but keeping them on in secondary roles, became unthinkable.

Bob's choices were threefold:

1. Invest the team leadership once again in Koivu and Kovalev, despite their advancing ages;
2. Find new leadership on the trade and UFA markets;
3. Tank the next season or two before even trying.

Option 3 would really only be possible if the club would not spend to the Cap, because so much money was available due to the expiring contracts. Hwoever, not spending to the Cap is simply not an option in Montreal. When the Expos management broke faith with their fans, the franchise was lost. Perhaps the Habs could not be lost, but their value would be drastically cut for sure.

So Bob decided on Option 2, allowing much more time to rebuild than Option 1 would have allowed. Under Option 1, there would not really be any time to wait for the Subbans and so forth to mature, because the leaders skills would be eroding faster than the next group could improve.

The route that Bob took is the PRO-rebuilding route, with the added plus that the guys he brought in are all guys with great work ethic and willingness to backcheck and play for the team. Now, let's give him another a year or two to round out the squad and see if we can't have another crack at a Cup, this time for a 2-3 year window.
I don't agree with your 3 option set up... all three are worded in a way that favors your perspective/bias... i could do the same but it's sort of pointless.

Beyond that though, part of Gainey's job IS to forsee, or predict, the development of his assets. A good management team has the pulse of it's players, and makes smart decisions contractually and through key additions to bolster the level of play of their group.
The "abandon ship" approach we saw this offseason strikes me as a move made out of desperation.
No matter how you cut it, Gainey has been in his position for 6 years, if he found himself in the depressing situation that those 3 options present, who other than him should be accountable for that?

Had he been successful in "building" the roster in his first 5 years, he wouldn't be stuck in the "pro-rebuilding" mode you described.

Let me ask you this simple question...

Do you think that the best way to build the core of a team is by acquiring the bulk of your key pieces in 1 offseason UFA market?

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Old
11-21-2009, 05:20 PM
  #39
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What's the point of this thread? I wonder what you would have posted if you were a Leafs fan. Probably something along the same lines, but maybe a thread title like "The night is darkest just before the dawn", while the rest of the league is laughing its ass off at your team.

If you don't like the negavity on this board, there are others out there. If you don't like the negativity in the city, well you'll need to live through it, because:
1. This city is bipolar and insane.
2. We just came off one of the most disapointing seasons ever.
3. We have a bad team, with a decent but not impressive prospect pool and little chance at a franchise player.

If the team starts producing, well then you'll see an outburst of insanity again, only it'll be positive this time. Kind of like in 07-08 when it was the complete opposite of right now.

Seems like you could've used the points you're trying to debate in seperate threads where those debates happen. This thread just attracts a big circle jerk in a pool of koolaid.

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11-21-2009, 05:34 PM
  #40
BaseballCoach
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Let me ask you this simple question...

Do you think that the best way to build the core of a team is by acquiring the bulk of your key pieces in 1 offseason UFA market?
Perhaps not, but he didn't! Check the facts!

Let's say the following are the key pieces to the team for the next 1-5 years:

Price
Markov
Hamrlik
Subban
Cammalleri
Gomez
Plekanec
Gionta

That's two out of eight acquired in the 2009 UFA market. There's four via draft, one via trade, and one via UFA 2007. Even the trade involved Higgins, who was drafted by the Habs, going the other way.

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Old
11-21-2009, 05:58 PM
  #41
Little Nilan
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There's another thing that bugged me and it's about Timmins and the Habs scouting.

You've mentioned the Habs have more drafted players in the NHL than any other team. However, the teams director of player developpement is Timmins and it's been the case since the 2003 draft.

Looking at players since the 2003-2004 season. Here are the young players who have had an impact(positive impact, not just points), let's count out Markov since his first excellent season was the year before:
We already had Markov, Rivet, Koivu, Brisebois, Theodore, Garon, Bouillon,

2003-2004:
Mike Ribeiro
Michael Ryder

2005-2006:
Ryder
Higgins
Plekanec
Komisarek
Not counting Ribeiro, he had a terrible year

2006-2007
Ryder
Higgins
Plekanec
Komisarek
Streit
Halak (excellent 16 game stretch that kept the team in the post-season).

2007-2008
Plekanec
Kostitsyn
Higgins
Sergei Kostitsyn
Komisarek
Price
Streit

2008-2009
Lapierre
Latendresse
Halak
The rest were a liability when it counted, though Kostitsyn, Price, Komisarek first halves were very good, injuries killed all three that year. D'Agostini and Pacioretty's impact was marginal, though I'll put D'Ag in for his 12 goals.

So what we see is most of the impact/core players through those years were Savard and pre-Savard picks. There's Streit who was amazing for us and instrumental in a lot of wins, but we all know he was a Pierre Gauthier recommendation. There's Sergei Kostitsyn, who Andre Savard wanted in the 2nd round, who had was the spark that turned the 07-08 season around, but he's been a problem since then. Price seems like an excellent pick up to now though. Andrei Kostitsyn was an impact player for one season only. And that's exactly the problem, since he's been here, we've had only 1 of his picks become a core player for more than a season and that's Streit, a guy who had a significant impact on games, but even then it was mostly during one year. We need core players from the draft, just Price is just not cutting it. We'll really see in the next 3 years what Timmins did with his drafts. He knows his goalies though, I'll give him that, Halak and Price in the span of 3 drafts is pretty freaking good.


Last edited by Little Nilan: 11-21-2009 at 06:05 PM.
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Old
11-21-2009, 06:56 PM
  #42
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Scotty hates Sergei View Post
There's another thing that bugged me and it's about Timmins and the Habs scouting.

You've mentioned the Habs have more drafted players in the NHL than any other team. However, the teams director of player developpement is Timmins and it's been the case since the 2003 draft.

Looking at players since the 2003-2004 season. Here are the young players who have had an impact(positive impact, not just points), let's count out Markov since his first excellent season was the year before:
We already had Markov, Rivet, Koivu, Brisebois, Theodore, Garon, Bouillon,

2003-2004:
Mike Ribeiro
Michael Ryder

2005-2006:
Ryder
Higgins
Plekanec
Komisarek
Not counting Ribeiro, he had a terrible year

2006-2007
Ryder
Higgins
Plekanec
Komisarek
Streit
Halak (excellent 16 game stretch that kept the team in the post-season).

2007-2008
Plekanec
Kostitsyn
Higgins
Sergei Kostitsyn
Komisarek
Price
Streit

2008-2009
Lapierre
Latendresse
Halak
The rest were a liability when it counted, though Kostitsyn, Price, Komisarek first halves were very good, injuries killed all three that year. D'Agostini and Pacioretty's impact was marginal, though I'll put D'Ag in for his 12 goals.

So what we see is most of the impact/core players through those years were Savard and pre-Savard picks. There's Streit who was amazing for us and instrumental in a lot of wins, but we all know he was a Pierre Gauthier recommendation. There's Sergei Kostitsyn, who Andre Savard wanted in the 2nd round, who had was the spark that turned the 07-08 season around, but he's been a problem since then. Price seems like an excellent pick up to now though. Andrei Kostitsyn was an impact player for one season only. And that's exactly the problem, since he's been here, we've had only 1 of his picks become a core player for more than a season and that's Streit, a guy who had a significant impact on games, but even then it was mostly during one year. We need core players from the draft, just Price is just not cutting it. We'll really see in the next 3 years what Timmins did with his drafts. He knows his goalies though, I'll give him that, Halak and Price in the span of 3 drafts is pretty freaking good.
Once the players make the team, it's not up to Timmins to develop them. Unless I'm mistaken, he barely works with them. Just has this little camp I think. We don't have a staff that focuses on development. Timmins is nothing more than a Scout really, regardless of what his title says.
All of the players you mentioned, had success in their junior years and continued it through the Bulldogs. They had some fair success at their first call ups on our team but then regressed.
How exactly is that Timmins's fault?

Our player development has nonexistent on our team. I suspect this will change under Martin as he's a teacher and works well with youngsters.
So I'm sure he'll be able to get the best out of our future young players once they make our team.


Last edited by Kriss E: 11-21-2009 at 07:02 PM.
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Old
11-21-2009, 07:19 PM
  #43
Little Nilan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Once the players make the team, it's not up to Timmins to develop them. Unless I'm mistaken, he barely works with them. Just has this little camp I think. We don't have a staff that focuses on development. Timmins is nothing more than a Scout really, regardless of what his title says.
All of the players you mentioned, had success in their junior years and continued it through the Bulldogs. They had some fair success at their first call ups on our team but then regressed.
How exactly is that Timmins's fault?

Our player development has nonexistent on our team. I suspect this will change under Martin as he's a teacher and works well with youngsters.
So I'm sure he'll be able to get the best out of our future young players once they make our team.
I'm really wondering why I have to explain this. The players drafted that had indeed become core players for more than 1 year like Ribeiro, Ryder, Markov, Rivet, Komisarek, Higgins, Plekanec, Theodore, Koivu were gotten before Timmins and went through the a similar player development system. Ryder, Ribeiro, Markov, Komisarek, Higgins and Plekanec are players who were developped just before Timmins came in. What has changed is the scouting, out of the core players Timmins has gotten, Streit and Kostitsyn have made a very significant impact. 2 players during the span of 1 year. The impact Price made could've been replaced by Huet, though I think he'll be a great goalie for a long time. This isn't developpement, this is drafting.

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11-21-2009, 11:33 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Scotty hates Sergei View Post
What's the point of this thread? I wonder what you would have posted if you were a Leafs fan. Probably something along the same lines, but maybe a thread title like "The night is darkest just before the dawn", while the rest of the league is laughing its ass off at your team.

If you don't like the negavity on this board, there are others out there. If you don't like the negativity in the city, well you'll need to live through it, because:
1. This city is bipolar and insane.
2. We just came off one of the most disapointing seasons ever.
3. We have a bad team, with a decent but not impressive prospect pool and little chance at a franchise player.

If the team starts producing, well then you'll see an outburst of insanity again, only it'll be positive this time. Kind of like in 07-08 when it was the complete opposite of right now.

Seems like you could've used the points you're trying to debate in seperate threads where those debates happen. This thread just attracts a big circle jerk in a pool of koolaid.
I disagree with you to the point that I think this thread should be stickied. For the simple reason that what 99% of Habs fans don't have is PERSPECTIVE. Everything is the end of the world, doom and gloom, and a jump to a conclusion. It's important to take the Gainey approach in this city, not get too high or get too low, and to take time to evaluate before making both comments, judgments and roster moves. This thread should be stickied to provide rational discussion about how current events fit into the long-term trends of this team. I think that is extremely important in giving PERSPECTIVE based on current team events. Many posters that have replied to this thread having understood the rationality in the OP's post. I think this could go a long way in helping provide a better atmosphere for our team to play in because these general negative impressions extend further than just virally multiplying on HFBoards.

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11-22-2009, 12:19 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Perhaps not, but he didn't! Check the facts!

Let's say the following are the key pieces to the team for the next 1-5 years:

Price
Markov
Hamrlik
Subban
Cammalleri
Gomez
Plekanec
Gionta

That's two out of eight acquired in the 2009 UFA market. There's four via draft, one via trade, and one via UFA 2007. Even the trade involved Higgins, who was drafted by the Habs, going the other way.
I like how you come up with "facts"...

How do you include Subban, who has yet to play an NHL game, as a "key piece" of the team in the next 1-5 years, but not Spacek, a guy who was just signed for 3 years at almost 4M$?

and in case you've missed the thread about pleks, he's a UFA next summer, and if he decides to test the market, there's a strong chance he won't be back... but let's leave him in there for arguments sake...

Gomez
Gionta
Cammalleri
Pleks
Markov
Spacek
Hamrlik
Price

that's 4 out of 8...

So I'll rephrase,

Do you think that the best way to build the core of a team is by acquiring 1/2 of your key pieces in 1 offseason UFA market?

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Old
11-22-2009, 03:28 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
I like how you come up with "facts"...

How do you include Subban, who has yet to play an NHL game, as a "key piece" of the team in the next 1-5 years, but not Spacek, a guy who was just signed for 3 years at almost 4M$?

and in case you've missed the thread about pleks, he's a UFA next summer, and if he decides to test the market, there's a strong chance he won't be back... but let's leave him in there for arguments sake...

Gomez
Gionta
Cammalleri
Pleks
Markov
Spacek
Hamrlik
Price

that's 4 out of 8...

So I'll rephrase,

Do you think that the best way to build the core of a team is by acquiring 1/2 of your key pieces in 1 offseason UFA market?

Ask yourself this..

When was the last time you can remember an offseason UFA market like this past offseason?

answer= never

never before in the history of NHL except maybe at the end of the WHL was there that many quality UFA's and many in their late 20's? Im not sure of the way it worked when the WHL flopped but I can not remember anytime ever like this past off season. There were many reasons for this it was very large and quality pool to choose from. We made out like bandits.

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11-22-2009, 06:03 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
I like how you come up with "facts"...

How do you include Subban, who has yet to play an NHL game, as a "key piece" of the team in the next 1-5 years, but not Spacek, a guy who was just signed for 3 years at almost 4M$?

and in case you've missed the thread about pleks, he's a UFA next summer, and if he decides to test the market, there's a strong chance he won't be back... but let's leave him in there for arguments sake...

Gomez
Gionta
Cammalleri
Pleks
Markov
Spacek
Hamrlik
Price

that's 4 out of 8...

So I'll rephrase,

Do you think that the best way to build the core of a team is by acquiring 1/2 of your key pieces in 1 offseason UFA market?
To me, Spacek is a secondary player, a #3-4 defenceman at best. Very few people here include Spacek in a list of core Habs players! It is common to acquire secondary players on the UFA market, or the waiver market (Metropolit).

Subban is projected to be a #1-2 defenceman. He is on the list for potential. He is on the list because in REALITY, the Habs ARE building around him and expecting him to play a major role soon.

Plekanec is without a doubt a core player on this team, but one whose contract ends next year, just like Markov and Hamrlik are core players whose contracts end in June 2011.

I stand by my list. Two out of the eight core players were acquired in one UFA season, and furthermore they are the numbers 3 and 8 in my evaluation. Even if you included Spacek as a player the Habs are building around, which I definitely DON'T, that would be 3 out of 9, including #s 3, 8 and 9.

1. Price
2. Markov
3. Cammalleri
4. Gomez
5. Subban
6. Plekanec
7. Hamrlik
8. Gionta

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11-22-2009, 11:32 AM
  #48
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Scotty hates Sergei View Post
I'm really wondering why I have to explain this. The players drafted that had indeed become core players for more than 1 year like Ribeiro, Ryder, Markov, Rivet, Komisarek, Higgins, Plekanec, Theodore, Koivu were gotten before Timmins and went through the a similar player development system. Ryder, Ribeiro, Markov, Komisarek, Higgins and Plekanec are players who were developped just before Timmins came in. What has changed is the scouting, out of the core players Timmins has gotten, Streit and Kostitsyn have made a very significant impact. 2 players during the span of 1 year. The impact Price made could've been replaced by Huet, though I think he'll be a great goalie for a long time. This isn't developpement, this is drafting.
Really...Koivu??..Why don't you continue all the way to the 50's while you're at it..

Ryder was never able to earn himself a decent contract with us. Let go.
Ribeiro had to be traded to screw his head straight and step up.
Rivet, was always bad defensively imo. The king of shooting pucks on people. Traded for Gorges and MaxPac (timmins pick).
Komisarek, was made thanks to Markov. Seen him play this year? Gone.
Higgins, this guys is a special case. From future Habs Captain to 4th liner. The guy has been ******** is career away. Gone.
Theodore, one season wonder, hit the jackpot after and has been poor ever since. Traded.
Koivu could have been a superstar or at least a true allstar had he never been injured early. Was good for us, was let go last summer.
Plekanec is playing great this season, better than his 07-08 year. We all hope he can stay here.
Markov, superstar.

Out of all the players you mentioned that are gone, only 1 truly holds a big impact, Ribeiro.
You could possibly argue about Rivet, but I have a hard time saying he's a key player.
Toronto are 2-3 without Komi. They double their wins since he's gone.

So, 2 of the players you mentioned are still with us. What were you trying to prove exactly?? That he has chosen nobody who'll be good or part of our core??..
Let's look at some of the players he drafted since he came in 2003..

Here's a better list of players :
2003 - Andrei Kostitsyn (crucial to our offensive production)
2003 - Jaroslav Halak (great backup, possibly a starter but can't prove it because Price is here)
2003 - Ryan O'Byrne (coming into his own, could develop into a solid top4 as early as this year)
2003 - Maxim Lapierre (has shown he can be an impact 3rd center, rough year so far)
2004 - Kyle Chipchura (had a career changing injury, still could develop into a good checker)
2004 - Mark Streit (was traded but is a key player on any team)
2004 - Gregory Stewart (246th, still if he plays smarter instead of trying to intimidate, he could be a solid 4th liner)
2004 - Mikhail Grabovski (was traded but sure would have helped us today. Key player in Toronto)
2004 - Alexei Yemelin (probably made our team had he come here)
2005 - Sergei Kostitsyn (could turn into a solid top6, possibly better than his bro)
2005 - Matt D'Agostini (similar to Ryder)
2005 - Guillaume Latendresse (the jury is still out as to what role he can play on a team)
2005 - Carey Price (possibly a superstar in the making. Key player.)
2006 - Ryan White (Lats-Laps are losing their jobs to him and Pyatt)
2007 - Max Pacioretty (Still a work in progress, but will become a solid player and a top6 imo after maturing some more)

Hamilton - Interesting prospects
2006 - Ben Maxwell (already played a few NHL games, still developing but he could become a good player)
2006 - Mathieu Carle (Thought he played pretty well in his game here. Don't know the impact he'll hold)
2007 - Yannick Weber (Top4 D in the making, possibly even top2. Will become a key player)
2007 - P.K. Subban (Same thing as Weber with the possibility of becoming a star.)
2007 - Ryan McDonagh (was traded, brought us Pyatt who's outplaying Lappy imo)

Too early to judge our 2008-2009 picks as they're all still in juniors but we can name a few that are already interesting:
2008 - Kristo
2008 - Trunev
2009 - Leblanc

Then there's some disappointments and low picks playing as low picks.

Now, for a lot of these players, chosen as far as 2003, it's still a bit early to know just how big of an impact they'll hold. What's interesting to see though is how many of his picks have made the NHL. This despite not having any top picks except for Price.

I mean, people will whine about his A.Kost pick, but even if it is a bad one, look at all the players he drafted that made the NHL so far. It's quite impressive.

Also, most of his picks are still very young and in development so it's tough to say just how big of an impact they'll hold.
We'll be able to assess exactly how good those pick will have become in a few years. So far though, it's pretty good.

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11-22-2009, 02:03 PM
  #49
Born in 1909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Really...Koivu??..Why don't you continue all the way to the 50's while you're at it..

Ryder was never able to earn himself a decent contract with us. Let go.
Ribeiro had to be traded to screw his head straight and step up.
Rivet, was always bad defensively imo. The king of shooting pucks on people. Traded for Gorges and MaxPac (timmins pick).
Komisarek, was made thanks to Markov. Seen him play this year? Gone.
Higgins, this guys is a special case. From future Habs Captain to 4th liner. The guy has been ******** is career away. Gone.
Theodore, one season wonder, hit the jackpot after and has been poor ever since. Traded.
Koivu could have been a superstar or at least a true allstar had he never been injured early. Was good for us, was let go last summer.
Plekanec is playing great this season, better than his 07-08 year. We all hope he can stay here.
Markov, superstar.

Out of all the players you mentioned that are gone, only 1 truly holds a big impact, Ribeiro.
You could possibly argue about Rivet, but I have a hard time saying he's a key player.
Toronto are 2-3 without Komi. They double their wins since he's gone.

So, 2 of the players you mentioned are still with us. What were you trying to prove exactly?? That he has chosen nobody who'll be good or part of our core??..
Let's look at some of the players he drafted since he came in 2003..

Here's a better list of players :
2003 - Andrei Kostitsyn (crucial to our offensive production)
2003 - Jaroslav Halak (great backup, possibly a starter but can't prove it because Price is here)
2003 - Ryan O'Byrne (coming into his own, could develop into a solid top4 as early as this year)
2003 - Maxim Lapierre (has shown he can be an impact 3rd center, rough year so far)
2004 - Kyle Chipchura (had a career changing injury, still could develop into a good checker)
2004 - Mark Streit (was traded but is a key player on any team)
2004 - Gregory Stewart (246th, still if he plays smarter instead of trying to intimidate, he could be a solid 4th liner)
2004 - Mikhail Grabovski (was traded but sure would have helped us today. Key player in Toronto)
2004 - Alexei Yemelin (probably made our team had he come here)
2005 - Sergei Kostitsyn (could turn into a solid top6, possibly better than his bro)
2005 - Matt D'Agostini (similar to Ryder)
2005 - Guillaume Latendresse (the jury is still out as to what role he can play on a team)
2005 - Carey Price (possibly a superstar in the making. Key player.)
2006 - Ryan White (Lats-Laps are losing their jobs to him and Pyatt)
2007 - Max Pacioretty (Still a work in progress, but will become a solid player and a top6 imo after maturing some more)

Hamilton - Interesting prospects
2006 - Ben Maxwell (already played a few NHL games, still developing but he could become a good player)
2006 - Mathieu Carle (Thought he played pretty well in his game here. Don't know the impact he'll hold)
2007 - Yannick Weber (Top4 D in the making, possibly even top2. Will become a key player)
2007 - P.K. Subban (Same thing as Weber with the possibility of becoming a star.)
2007 - Ryan McDonagh (was traded, brought us Pyatt who's outplaying Lappy imo)

Too early to judge our 2008-2009 picks as they're all still in juniors but we can name a few that are already interesting:
2008 - Kristo
2008 - Trunev
2009 - Leblanc

Then there's some disappointments and low picks playing as low picks.

Now, for a lot of these players, chosen as far as 2003, it's still a bit early to know just how big of an impact they'll hold. What's interesting to see though is how many of his picks have made the NHL. This despite not having any top picks except for Price.

I mean, people will whine about his A.Kost pick, but even if it is a bad one, look at all the players he drafted that made the NHL so far. It's quite impressive.

Also, most of his picks are still very young and in development so it's tough to say just how big of an impact they'll hold.
We'll be able to assess exactly how good those pick will have become in a few years. So far though, it's pretty good.
The preventable errors Gainey may have made

1. not getting enough for Ribeiro

2. not keeping Streit for cheap (Carbo had a lot to do with that)

3. not trading Ryder for something when it became clear he was not coming out of Carbo's doghouse and would have no role in a stretch run (unlike Souray and Komi and the other valuable UFA's)

4. maybe... just maybe... Price over Kopitar... and AKost over Carter or Richards (but drafts have a crapshoot dimension to them)


Last edited by Born in 1909: 11-22-2009 at 02:11 PM.
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Old
11-22-2009, 06:16 PM
  #50
Little Nilan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Really...Koivu??..Why don't you continue all the way to the 50's while you're at it..

Ryder was never able to earn himself a decent contract with us. Let go.
Ribeiro had to be traded to screw his head straight and step up.
Rivet, was always bad defensively imo. The king of shooting pucks on people. Traded for Gorges and MaxPac (timmins pick).
Komisarek, was made thanks to Markov. Seen him play this year? Gone.
Higgins, this guys is a special case. From future Habs Captain to 4th liner. The guy has been ******** is career away. Gone.
Theodore, one season wonder, hit the jackpot after and has been poor ever since. Traded.
Koivu could have been a superstar or at least a true allstar had he never been injured early. Was good for us, was let go last summer.
Plekanec is playing great this season, better than his 07-08 year. We all hope he can stay here.
Markov, superstar.

Out of all the players you mentioned that are gone, only 1 truly holds a big impact, Ribeiro.
You could possibly argue about Rivet, but I have a hard time saying he's a key player.
Toronto are 2-3 without Komi. They double their wins since he's gone.

So, 2 of the players you mentioned are still with us. What were you trying to prove exactly?? That he has chosen nobody who'll be good or part of our core??..
Let's look at some of the players he drafted since he came in 2003..

Here's a better list of players :
2003 - Andrei Kostitsyn (crucial to our offensive production)
2003 - Jaroslav Halak (great backup, possibly a starter but can't prove it because Price is here)
2003 - Ryan O'Byrne (coming into his own, could develop into a solid top4 as early as this year)
2003 - Maxim Lapierre (has shown he can be an impact 3rd center, rough year so far)
2004 - Kyle Chipchura (had a career changing injury, still could develop into a good checker)
2004 - Mark Streit (was traded but is a key player on any team)
2004 - Gregory Stewart (246th, still if he plays smarter instead of trying to intimidate, he could be a solid 4th liner)
2004 - Mikhail Grabovski (was traded but sure would have helped us today. Key player in Toronto)
2004 - Alexei Yemelin (probably made our team had he come here)
2005 - Sergei Kostitsyn (could turn into a solid top6, possibly better than his bro)
2005 - Matt D'Agostini (similar to Ryder)
2005 - Guillaume Latendresse (the jury is still out as to what role he can play on a team)
2005 - Carey Price (possibly a superstar in the making. Key player.)
2006 - Ryan White (Lats-Laps are losing their jobs to him and Pyatt)
2007 - Max Pacioretty (Still a work in progress, but will become a solid player and a top6 imo after maturing some more)

Hamilton - Interesting prospects
2006 - Ben Maxwell (already played a few NHL games, still developing but he could become a good player)
2006 - Mathieu Carle (Thought he played pretty well in his game here. Don't know the impact he'll hold)
2007 - Yannick Weber (Top4 D in the making, possibly even top2. Will become a key player)
2007 - P.K. Subban (Same thing as Weber with the possibility of becoming a star.)
2007 - Ryan McDonagh (was traded, brought us Pyatt who's outplaying Lappy imo)

Too early to judge our 2008-2009 picks as they're all still in juniors but we can name a few that are already interesting:
2008 - Kristo
2008 - Trunev
2009 - Leblanc
Just a worthless post all around Kriss. I think you've missed the point completely. For example, talking about the Hamilton prospects, Kristo, Trunev and Leblanc is completely irrelevant to what I was saying. They're names, just like many other busts were before them, we don't know how they'll turn out, so why are you talking about them when I was pretty clear in what I was trying to comment? Another example would be how you evaluate Ryder vs D'Agostini. Ryder was our best goal scorer for a span of 3 years, you described him as "was never able to earn himself a decent contract with us" like this was somehow relevant in any way. Then you go on to say D'Agostini is "like Ryder". He's nothing like Ryder. He's not as good a goalscorer, he's not as strong physically(not even close) and his vision is even more limited. He uses his speed but he's a liability outside a small radius around the net. Ryder was a core player for 3 years, D'Agostini is barely an NHL player. How can you call him "like Ryder".

Then you ask:

Quote:
What were you trying to prove exactly?? That he has chosen nobody who'll be good or part of our core??..
Kriss, you have this tendency of not understanding what people post, it's annoying because you tend to argue a lot: READ THE ****ING POSTS. You said Timmins is not the problem, player developpement is. I'm saying it isn't, previous drafts have gotten us core players who played like core players for more than 1 season despite going through a similar developpement system. Timmins has gotten us no core players who kept it up for more than 1 season (which is funny, because the list of players I wrote were related to that point, while your "better" list had literally nothing to do with it, if only to further what I was saying). I think we'll see Price do that, Kostitsyn probably, Subban hopefully. Maybe more eventually, but right now that's not the case.

As for your list(s), since its grating my nerves, I'm going to tell you it's mostly full of bias and tough to take seriously. Either you're an idiot, or you're not really convinced about some of those comments. Rivet, for example, was a top 4 guy with the Habs for years, played on the top PK unit and the top pairing with Markov. That is a core player, of debatable quality, but a core player nonetheless. Ryan O'byrne is not a core player and even if he becomes one this year, it'll still be irrelevant in what I'm discussing. All those players you listed, then commented on with no real point in mind, were important players and for more than 1 year. Yes, including Komisarek (who frankly, was a beast for 3 years with us) and Theodore(who good, dominating, bad, great, then horrid).

Let's look even more closely at your list. Kostitsyn is crucial to the offense... yes he would be but he's produced like a crucial part for 1 year. Lapierre is an impact center... well he was for 1 year (or you could say half a year). I mean, you listed Emelin, seriously... Emelin? How the **** does that guy get talked about in a discussion about core players drafted since 2003. So please, i understand our optimism, and I've never denied that we could still have prospects blossom into very interestind players. But I was talking players drafted since 03 playing a consistent role on the team, it's lacking on Montreal, while other teams have had that. So listing me speculation, hopefull predictions, wishfull thinking, guesses and demeaning previous players doesn't do much for me tbh.


Last edited by Little Nilan: 11-22-2009 at 06:26 PM.
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