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Old
11-22-2009, 03:06 AM
  #1
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Horcoff + Kevin Lowe

I heard Tencer talking about O Sullivan and Gilbert having to play through their slumps, how does Horcoff escape these conversations? His agent and must have some good dirt on Kevin Lowe, who should be fired for offering this contract to him in the first place. The amount of icetime this tool sees and these are the stats he puts up. He is talked about as being something of a defensive center, - player again this year. They should put a helmet cam on this idiot as he has the best views in the house during far too many goals against. Time to lay off some of the other players, this bigger issue has two different colored eyes and cannot raise the puck on a one timer. Prove me wrong Horcoff, you gutless wonder!!

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11-22-2009, 03:08 AM
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11-22-2009, 03:13 AM
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i bet players talk about how much horcoff sucks all the time...and when he enters the room, everyone goes back to what they were doing...

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11-22-2009, 03:18 AM
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I would imagine when it comes to arbitration Horcoff's name and salary gets brought up a fair amount by the players representation.

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11-22-2009, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
i bet players talk about how much horcoff sucks all the time...and when he enters the room, everyone goes back to what they were doing...
....laughing about how stupid fans are who pay to watch them play.

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11-22-2009, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Areu4real View Post
I heard Tencer talking about O Sullivan and Gilbert having to play through their slumps, how does Horcoff escape these conversations? His agent and must have some good dirt on Kevin Lowe, who should be fired for offering this contract to him in the first place. The amount of icetime this tool sees and these are the stats he puts up. He is talked about as being something of a defensive center, - player again this year. They should put a helmet cam on this idiot as he has the best views in the house during far too many goals against. Time to lay off some of the other players, this bigger issue has two different colored eyes and cannot raise the puck on a one timer. Prove me wrong Horcoff, you gutless wonder!!
This post is so damn true. Well done, Areu4real.

I wouldn't mind Horcoff's contract so much if we actually had a GM with a clue on how to run a team. Yes, Steve, let's just sit by, make false statements at the press conference of the firing of MacTavish, not improve this team in any position other than goaltending, and watch them go nowhere.

Tambellini has been GM since the summer of '08. What exactly does he have to show for it? A failed Heatley trade and trading for a guy that has struggled (O'Sullivan)? Way to put your stamp on the team. It's gotten to the point where I wouldn't mind the Oilers missing the playoffs as long as it means the Oilers fire Tambellini/Lowe and get someone who can actually put a competitive roster together.

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11-22-2009, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Studly Wonderbomb View Post
This post is so damn true. Well done, Areu4real.

I wouldn't mind Horcoff's contract so much if we actually had a GM with a clue on how to run a team. Yes, Steve, let's just sit by, make false statements at the press conference of the firing of MacTavish, not improve this team in any position other than goaltending, and watch them go nowhere.

Tambellini has been GM since the summer of '08. What exactly does he have to show for it? A failed Heatley trade and trading for a guy that has struggled (O'Sullivan)? Way to put your stamp on the team. It's gotten to the point where I wouldn't mind the Oilers missing the playoffs as long as it means the Oilers fire Tambellini/Lowe and get someone who can actually put a competitive roster together.

Yeah, what a moron Tambellini was for Heatley refusing to come here.

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11-22-2009, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Areu4real View Post
I heard Tencer talking about O Sullivan and Gilbert having to play through their slumps, how does Horcoff escape these conversations? His agent and must have some good dirt on Kevin Lowe, who should be fired for offering this contract to him in the first place. The amount of icetime this tool sees and these are the stats he puts up. He is talked about as being something of a defensive center, - player again this year. They should put a helmet cam on this idiot as he has the best views in the house during far too many goals against. Time to lay off some of the other players, this bigger issue has two different colored eyes and cannot raise the puck on a one timer. Prove me wrong Horcoff, you gutless wonder!!
You officially understand nothing of hockey if you truly believe +/- reflects a players defensive ability. Way too many outside factors effect an individuals +/-. If you put Datsyuk out on the ice with 4 quadripilegics, he'd end up a - player. Does that diminish what he brings to the defensive part of the game? Watch the whole game, not the highlite pack and I'm sure you'll find Horc making good reads down low.

He's got pts in 4 straight games since coming off injury and being reunited with Penner and Hemmer. His hands aren't great, he should bury more chances than he does, but at least he has the hockey sense/strength/will to get to those areas, which can't be said of about 3/4's of our forwards.

65pts. If Horc can put up this level of production and maintain all the other things he does away from the puck, his contract is roughly market value.

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11-22-2009, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
You officially understand nothing of hockey if you truly believe +/- reflects a players defensive ability. Way too many outside factors effect an individuals +/-. If you put Datsyuk out on the ice with 4 quadripilegics, he'd end up a - player. Does that diminish what he brings to the defensive part of the game? Watch the whole game, not the highlite pack and I'm sure you'll find Horc making good reads down low.

He's got pts in 4 straight games since coming off injury and being reunited with Penner and Hemmer. His hands aren't great, he should bury more chances than he does, but at least he has the hockey sense/strength/will to get to those areas, which can't be said of about 3/4's of our forwards.

65pts. If Horc can put up this level of production and maintain all the other things he does away from the puck, his contract is roughly market value.
But he's not doing it.

GA/ON/60 2.72
GF/ON/60 3.15
Corsi Minus 2.91

The only thing you can say in his favour at this point is that the team is worse when he's not on the ice but that's not saying much.

And he's on pace for 38 points not the 65 you are using as a bench mark.

I expect he could exceed that but he would need to score at a pretty good clip to hit that level.

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11-22-2009, 11:34 AM
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Agree with the OP completely. I used to be one of the biggest Horcoff backers including last year giving him the benefit of the doubt because of his injury before. But the Shawn Horcoff of last and this season is not the same Shawn from prior to his injury.

The guy has lost it completely offensively, every single time the hits his stick in the offensive zone the play typical dies. He can't pass, can't shoot anymore, doesn't look fast like he used too, and never throws a hit or cycles in the corners.

Sad really, its hard to feel bad for him too when hes making elite player money and performing like a 4th liner offensively.

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Old
11-22-2009, 11:48 AM
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One one big difference between Horcoff now and Horcoff a season and a 1/2 is how conservative and unsure his game has become.

Right now he takes absolutely no risks, and seems to hesitate whenever he has the puck. 2 years ago he seemed to have so much confidence in his game and hockey sense, it looked like he was always 3 steps ahead of everyone on the ice.
I remember 1 one against the Canucks, where he got the puck in the defensive zone, dangled it though the feet of a Canuck player, before throwing a clean, crisp pass up the ice. Or later in the same game (I think) during the SO, where he came in a fast and just ripped a wrist shot right between Luongos legs.

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11-22-2009, 11:54 AM
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Given that he's on pace to lead the entire NHL AGAIN in face-offs taken, you would think Oiler fans would be thanking their lucky stars that we have him on this team as otherwise we'd be in lottery territory. After all, not one but two coaching staffs have relied on him heavily to take a huge amount of defensive zone face-offs. Has he played to his best so far? No, but he is still the player we could least afford going down to injury (maybe after only Khabiulin given JDD's play of late) given our depth chart at centre.

Personally, I'm going to trust the opinion of veteran coaches like MacT, Pat Quinn, Renney, and Fleming over the legions of irrational Horcoff haters on these boards. You would think that people would understand that when you spend half your game taking defensive zone draws it's easy to get goals against and hard to get points. You'd also think that given the fact that TWO coaching staffs have used him in that way most people would realize his value. I guess not. Once again the average HF maroon proves his inability to take context (strength of opposition lines, defensive versus offensive zone draws) into account. Are you people not watching the games and seeing how the coaches actually use players? Or do you just sit there paying attention to the big hits, big saves, and snazzy plays?

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11-22-2009, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by The Rage View Post
Given that he's on pace to lead the entire NHL AGAIN in face-offs taken, you would think Oiler fans would be thanking their lucky stars that we have him on this team as otherwise we'd be in lottery territory.
Ship him out or shut him down for the year and dive for Seguin!

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11-22-2009, 11:57 AM
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Really surprised that this thread is still open. It's unnecessary, overly dramatic, and its been done to death.

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11-22-2009, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by The Rage View Post
Given that he's on pace to lead the entire NHL AGAIN in face-offs taken, you would think Oiler fans would be thanking their lucky stars that we have him on this team as otherwise we'd be in lottery territory. After all, not one but two coaching staffs have relied on him heavily to take a huge amount of defensive zone face-offs. Has he played to his best so far? No, but he is still the player we could least afford going down to injury (maybe after only Khabiulin given JDD's play of late) given our depth chart at centre.

Personally, I'm going to trust the opinion of veteran coaches like MacT, Pat Quinn, Renney, and Fleming over the legions of irrational Horcoff haters on these boards. You would think that people would understand that when you spend half your game taking defensive zone draws it's easy to get goals against and hard to get points. You'd also think that given the fact that TWO coaching staffs have used him in that way most people would realize his value. I guess not. Once again the average HF maroon proves his inability to take context (strength of opposition lines, defensive versus offensive zone draws) into account. Are you people not watching the games and seeing how the coaches actually use players? Or do you just sit there paying attention to the big hits, big saves, and snazzy plays?

Nope.

He's currently 25th in total faceoffs taken.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...fPercentageAll

While the coaches are forced to use him in a role that stymies offensive production to some degree, he is hardly the only centre in the league that is used that way and a few of them still manage to produce offensively.

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Old
11-22-2009, 12:31 PM
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Horcoff is on a 4 game point streak and has 7 points in his last 7 games

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11-22-2009, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Nope.

He's currently 25th in total faceoffs taken.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...fPercentageAll

While the coaches are forced to use him in a role that stymies offensive production to some degree, he is hardly the only centre in the league that is used that way and a few of them still manage to produce offensively.
I think it would make more sense to look at faceoffs/game and go from there given the time he spent injured. His offensive game has certainly not been up to what should be expected of him, but how many players over the last season and a quarter have had as many d-zone draws as Horcoff? And of the players you allude to, certainly all are vital components to their teams as it would be insane if fans celebrated their injuries like a step forward.

Horcoff leads the forwards in ES TOI/game after being relyed on heavily by MacT: http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce One must either conclude that both this and last year's coaching staff are morons, or Horcoff is an integral player. Which camp do you fall in to dsf?

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11-22-2009, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Nope.

He's currently 25th in total faceoffs taken.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...fPercentageAll
Looking at that list, Horcoff would have similar faceoff stats to any of them if he had played a full season. And all those players in the top 30 are either superstars or very solid all around players. Again, is Horcoff the only scrub in the league who gets tons of faceoffs and ES TOI? And not one but TWO coaching staffs have used him that way?


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Old
11-22-2009, 01:12 PM
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Looking at that list, Horcoff would have similar faceoff stats to any of them if he had played a ful season. And all those players in the top 30 are either superstars or very solid all around players. Again, is Horcoff the only scrub in the league who gets tons of faceoffs and ES TOI? And not one but TWO coaching staffs have used him that way?
At the rate he's taking faceoffs, if he had played the extra four games, he would still rank sixth, way behind Crosby. And, of course some players on that list have played only one or two more games than Horcoff.

Horcoff isn't a "scrub" by any means but I'm not sure how you can argue that players like Vermette, Handzus, Mikko Koivu, and Weiss, for example, are superstars.

As stated, he's been given a tough job but he's not alone in the role and others are still able to produce offensively.

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11-22-2009, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by OilerTyler View Post
Horcoff is on a 4 game point streak and has 7 points in his last 7 games
Hey now, this post doesn't belong here. That type of positive attitude is just not right for this thread. It belongs in BBO's Negative Nancys, Can It Already thread

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11-22-2009, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
At the rate he's taking faceoffs, if he had played the extra four games, he would still rank sixth, way behind Crosby. And, of course some players on that list have played only one or two more games than Horcoff.

Horcoff isn't a "scrub" by any means but I'm not sure how you can argue that players like Vermette, Handzus, Mikko Koivu, and Weiss, for example, are superstars.
Superstars no, but no one is arguing Horcoff is either. He's a quality all around player (and I would put the guys you mention in that category for the most part) and we need more like him, not less

Quote:
As stated, he's been given a tough job but he's not alone in the role and others are still able to produce offensively.
His offense isn't where it needs to be, but I think it'll bounce back to closer to is career averages. And of course, if this team ever gets another decent ES centreman, he'd likely have scoring rates comparable to 2006 when we had Peca (73 points in 79 games).

Again, dsf, have we had two moronic coaching staffs who have given Horcoff an absurd amount of ES TOI? Or is he our most important ES forward? I can't see how neither can be true. Here's the ES TOI from last year: http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce
Horcoff was second amongst forwards in ES TOI that year and likely would have led the team if he didn't have significant special teams duties as well. Again--two coaching staffs, same pattern. What do you think that means?

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11-22-2009, 01:32 PM
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Superstars no, but no one is arguing Horcoff is either. He's a quality all around player (and I would put the guys you mention in that category for the most part) and we need more like him, not less



His offense isn't where it needs to be, but I think it'll bounce back to closer to is career averages. And of course, if this team ever gets another decent ES centreman, he'd likely have scoring rates comparable to 2006 when we had Peca (73 points in 79 games).

Again, dsf, have we had two moronic coaching staffs who have given Horcoff an absurd amount of ES TOI? Or is he our most important ES forward? I can't see how neither can be true. Here's the ES TOI from last year: http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce
Horcoff was second amongst forwards in ES TOI that year and likely would have led the team if he didn't have significant special teams duties as well. Again--two coaching staffs, same pattern. What do you think that means?
No question he is the team's most important ES forward but, to me, that rings a little hollow considering the alternatives.

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11-22-2009, 01:41 PM
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Horcoff's ice time this year needs to be taken with a grain of salt though due to the huge rash of injuries. I seem to remember early in the season noticing that Quinn was starting to cut Horcoff's ice time down to about what a 2nd/3rd line center should be getting. Then all the injuries hit, and naturally his ice time is going to shoot back up. With a perfectly healthy roster, Horcoff is likely the thrid line center behind Comrie and Gagner, who plays more situational minutes when we're defending a lead.

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11-22-2009, 01:52 PM
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Horcoff's ice time this year needs to be taken with a grain of salt though due to the huge rash of injuries. I seem to remember early in the season noticing that Quinn was starting to cut Horcoff's ice time down to about what a 2nd/3rd line center should be getting. Then all the injuries hit, and naturally his ice time is going to shoot back up. With a perfectly healthy roster, Horcoff is likely the thrid line center behind Comrie and Gagner, who plays more situational minutes when we're defending a lead.
This makes absolutely no sense. It may be possible that injuries would lead a player to have more ES icetime, but which centremen have been injured on this team to result in Horcoff getting more minutes ES? Pouliot???? And Horcoff is well ahead of Gagner in ES TOI and FAR ahead of Comrie, who has been used sparingly ES..

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11-22-2009, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
No question he is the team's most important ES forward but, to me, that rings a little hollow considering the alternatives.
Well, then, we mostly agree--Horcoff is our top ES forward and needs to score more.

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