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Old
11-22-2009, 01:57 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by jfhlbuffy View Post
Yeah, what a moron Tambellini was for Heatley refusing to come here.
He looks bad for not doing due diligence in finding out if Heatley would waive the no trade to come here. He needed to ask permission to talk with Heatley and confirm this. If he did this and was lied to fine. If he just took somebody at their word then that is not fine.

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11-22-2009, 02:17 PM
  #27
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Well, then, we mostly agree--Horcoff is our top ES forward and needs to score more.
Yes. A lot more given that he is the team's highest paid forward.

A PPG is kind of the floor for players in his range.

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11-22-2009, 02:18 PM
  #28
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Given that he's on pace to lead the entire NHL AGAIN in face-offs taken, you would think Oiler fans would be thanking their lucky stars that we have him on this team as otherwise we'd be in lottery territory. After all, not one but two coaching staffs have relied on him heavily to take a huge amount of defensive zone face-offs. Has he played to his best so far? No, but he is still the player we could least afford going down to injury (maybe after only Khabiulin given JDD's play of late) given our depth chart at centre.

Personally, I'm going to trust the opinion of veteran coaches like MacT, Pat Quinn, Renney, and Fleming over the legions of irrational Horcoff haters on these boards. You would think that people would understand that when you spend half your game taking defensive zone draws it's easy to get goals against and hard to get points. You'd also think that given the fact that TWO coaching staffs have used him in that way most people would realize his value. I guess not. Once again the average HF maroon proves his inability to take context (strength of opposition lines, defensive versus offensive zone draws) into account. Are you people not watching the games and seeing how the coaches actually use players? Or do you just sit there paying attention to the big hits, big saves, and snazzy plays?
Horcoff takes d zone face offs and faces tough competition. He also gets premium pp minutes on the first unit and plays with the best offensive players on the team. If he cant produce offensively in these circumstances then he never will, d zone draws or not. He has been put in the best position to succeed offensively and he has pooped the bed.

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11-22-2009, 02:20 PM
  #29
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I think it would make more sense to look at faceoffs/game and go from there given the time he spent injured. His offensive game has certainly not been up to what should be expected of him, but how many players over the last season and a quarter have had as many d-zone draws as Horcoff? And of the players you allude to, certainly all are vital components to their teams as it would be insane if fans celebrated their injuries like a step forward.

Horcoff leads the forwards in ES TOI/game after being relyed on heavily by MacT: http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce One must either conclude that both this and last year's coaching staff are morons, or Horcoff is an integral player. Which camp do you fall in to dsf?
Or he is the only veteran center we have to count on? This would be the third and more accurate choice.

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11-22-2009, 02:21 PM
  #30
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This makes absolutely no sense. It may be possible that injuries would lead a player to have more ES icetime, but which centremen have been injured on this team to result in Horcoff getting more minutes ES? Pouliot???? And Horcoff is well ahead of Gagner in ES TOI and FAR ahead of Comrie, who has been used sparingly ES..
Injuries mess up chemisty, lead to reshuffling of all lines, and Quinn was pretty much forced to turn back to the status quo with such constant roster upheaval. Right before the injury/flu bug hit hard, Horcoff had just been demoted to the second line. It's now come to light that Comrie had probably been playing sick for a considerable length of time, so that's a factor as well. Keeping Horcoff as the top center over the last three weeks is/was the safe play, and probably a necessary one for the time being unfortunately. Four healthy lines that are able to develop some consistency with one another gives you a lot more latitude in moving Horcoff down to the third line and sticking with Gagner and Comrie, both superior offensively, on your top two scoring lines.

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11-22-2009, 03:10 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Injuries mess up chemisty, lead to reshuffling of all lines, and Quinn was pretty much forced to turn back to the status quo with such constant roster upheaval. Right before the injury/flu bug hit hard, Horcoff had just been demoted to the second line. It's now come to light that Comrie had probably been playing sick for a considerable length of time, so that's a factor as well. Keeping Horcoff as the top center over the last three weeks is/was the safe play, and probably a necessary one for the time being unfortunately. Four healthy lines that are able to develop some consistency with one another gives you a lot more latitude in moving Horcoff down to the third line and sticking with Gagner and Comrie, both superior offensively, on your top two scoring lines.
Well, we'll have to see what happens when the Oilers get healthy, but I'll be shocked if he doesn't lead centreman in ES TOI, even if you disregard recent games.

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11-22-2009, 03:12 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Or he is the only veteran center we have to count on? This would be the third and more accurate choice.
Comrie's a veteran who has spent most of his career as a centreman and is playing almost 33% less than Horcoff ES. It's a silly argument, because if we had another decent veteran C, Horcoff would be looking much better and scoring a lot more points.

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11-22-2009, 03:13 PM
  #33
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Comrie's a veteran who has spent most of his career as a centreman and is playing almost 33% less than Horcoff ES. It's a silly argument, because if we had another decent veteran C, Horcoff would be looking much better and scoring a lot more points.
That was my point really. Comrie is barely an nhler in his present form.

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11-22-2009, 04:39 PM
  #34
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Hey Roof Daddy, or should i say Mr. Horcoff... your son makes as much as Iginla, has the leadership qualities of a rookie in the CHL!! If you think 7.5 million is worth taking face-offs and watching pucks go into your net then I am glad you are not the GM. But then again you are probably still pushing a chair when you go public skating. Thanks for the input but save it.

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11-22-2009, 04:51 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Areu4real View Post
Hey Roof Daddy, or should i say Mr. Horcoff... your son makes as much as Iginla, has the leadership qualities of a rookie in the CHL!! If you think 7.5 million is worth taking face-offs and watching pucks go into your net then I am glad you are not the GM. But then again you are probably still pushing a chair when you go public skating. Thanks for the input but save it.
lol.

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11-22-2009, 05:25 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Areu4real View Post
Hey Roof Daddy, or should i say Mr. Horcoff... your son makes as much as Iginla, has the leadership qualities of a rookie in the CHL!! If you think 7.5 million is worth taking face-offs and watching pucks go into your net then I am glad you are not the GM. But then again you are probably still pushing a chair when you go public skating. Thanks for the input but save it.
I'd love to know how you arrived at this point. I'm sure you have your reasons, which you're welcome to, but I like to use arguments that are a little more fact based... sometimes even involving research (for instance, he actually makes 7, not 7.5 this year - though I'm not saying he's worth that). I'm not really sure how you can question his leadership when he was such a major component on a Stanley Cup finalist (after Roli, Pronger and Pisani he was our most important player). Finished tied for 4th that year in playoff points, including some clutch goals (OT against SJ). But I'm sure because you saw him duff a one-timer on the Sportsnet hilights we should probably strip the A off his jersey.

He is not worth 7mil per in any reasonable realm of thinking, but he'll also be making 4 and 3 mil in the final 2 yrs of his contract. 5.5 hit, thats the only number that matters.

Let me ask a question. If you were coaching a team, what forward would you use most on the PK? Maybe your most defensively responsible? Is it just coincidence then that Horc leads our forwards with PKmins/game?

And yes DSF, I realize he is far from the 65pt benchmark I feel makes his contract close to market value, but there are plenty of other players with big tickets that kicked in this year that are off to slow starts. Is Eric Staal suddenly garbage because he has 5pts in 13 games while making 8.25 (cap hit)? Slow starts/slumps are very much a part of hockey, IMO Horc was just off to a slow start and 65 pts is realistic if his shoulder gets better and he's provided 1st line time with Penner and Hemmer. The timing was just REALLY bad that the slow start comes in conjunction with a big contract kicking in.

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11-22-2009, 05:25 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Areu4real View Post
Hey Roof Daddy, or should i say Mr. Horcoff... your son makes as much as Iginla, has the leadership qualities of a rookie in the CHL!! If you think 7.5 million is worth taking face-offs and watching pucks go into your net then I am glad you are not the GM. But then again you are probably still pushing a chair when you go public skating. Thanks for the input but save it.
Areu4real?? 3 posts in and you're dishing out unwarranted school yard insults? Way to ingratiate yourself on this board.

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11-22-2009, 08:24 PM
  #38
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What really bugs me is why there was such a rush to sign horcoff. I think he was signed the same year he had that shoulder injury..... Kevin Lowe signed damaged goods

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11-22-2009, 08:32 PM
  #39
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What really bugs me is why there was such a rush to sign horcoff. I think he was signed the same year he had that shoulder injury..... Kevin Lowe signed damaged goods
The Ryan Smyth fiasco. Had the Oilers not signed Horcoff and they had to trade him at the deadline, people on here would have wanted Lowe's head. I don't understand the Lowe hatred on here. I really don't.

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11-22-2009, 08:51 PM
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The Ryan Smyth fiasco. Had the Oilers not signed Horcoff and they had to trade him at the deadline, people on here would have wanted Lowe's head. I don't understand the Lowe hatred on here. I really don't.
Here's a primer.

Lowe built the team.

The team is brutal.

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11-22-2009, 09:08 PM
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Fastest poster to get banned?
nay

we tried to ban you to the Leaf board but you came back

Horcoff is and always will be a carpet bagger on the bacl of Hemsky.

THere is a great web site that track line combos and looking at horcoff's numbers away from Hemsky is funnier then anything john belushi ever did

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11-22-2009, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
The Ryan Smyth fiasco. Had the Oilers not signed Horcoff and they had to trade him at the deadline, people on here would have wanted Lowe's head. I don't understand the Lowe hatred on here. I really don't.
They signed him a full year before he was due to become a free agent, and did it while he was shelved with a major injury. That gave them the perfect reason to wait and see without it looking like they were playing another game of chicken like the Smyth situation. Personally, I felt not giving in to Smyth's salary demands was the correct move. But when they up and gave Horcoff basically the same contract Smyth was looking for it made me re-think things, and looks really bad on Lowe, although I'm not as hard on Lowe as the majority seem to be. Basically he did two really dumb things: Kept MacT around too long, and signed MacT's favorite player to an albatross of a contract.

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11-22-2009, 09:27 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
I'd love to know how you arrived at this point. I'm sure you have your reasons, which you're welcome to, but I like to use arguments that are a little more fact based... sometimes even involving research (for instance, he actually makes 7, not 7.5 this year - though I'm not saying he's worth that). I'm not really sure how you can question his leadership when he was such a major component on a Stanley Cup finalist (after Roli, Pronger and Pisani he was our most important player). Finished tied for 4th that year in playoff points, including some clutch goals (OT against SJ). But I'm sure because you saw him duff a one-timer on the Sportsnet hilights we should probably strip the A off his jersey.

He is not worth 7mil per in any reasonable realm of thinking, but he'll also be making 4 and 3 mil in the final 2 yrs of his contract. 5.5 hit, thats the only number that matters.

Let me ask a question. If you were coaching a team, what forward would you use most on the PK? Maybe your most defensively responsible? Is it just coincidence then that Horc leads our forwards with PKmins/game?

And yes DSF, I realize he is far from the 65pt benchmark I feel makes his contract close to market value, but there are plenty of other players with big tickets that kicked in this year that are off to slow starts. Is Eric Staal suddenly garbage because he has 5pts in 13 games while making 8.25 (cap hit)? Slow starts/slumps are very much a part of hockey, IMO Horc was just off to a slow start and 65 pts is realistic if his shoulder gets better and he's provided 1st line time with Penner and Hemmer. The timing was just REALLY bad that the slow start comes in conjunction with a big contract kicking in.




it always has.

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11-22-2009, 09:30 PM
  #44
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Here's a primer.

Lowe built the team.

The team is brutal.
To be fair he did build a team with a 5 year plan. Then Pronger wanted out, then **** hit the fan.

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11-22-2009, 09:31 PM
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To be fair he did build a team with a 5 year plan. Then Pronger wanted out, then **** hit the fan.
So for 4 years he hasn't been able to adjust?

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11-22-2009, 09:37 PM
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So for 4 years he hasn't been able to adjust?
Nope. Pronger is a superstar, not many teams win championships without superstars. Instead Lowe picked up a bunch of mediocore spare parts throughout the 4 seasons and hindered our chance to draft a legit superstar. He kinda tried the Philly method after they finished last in the league I think in 06 or 07. They rebounded pretty good, but they managed to pick up a couple great players that offseason and had some great luck with the development of Richards and Carter. Lowe's had the effort, but no success.

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11-22-2009, 09:38 PM
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Nope. Pronger is a superstar, not many teams win championships without superstars. Instead Lowe picked up a bunch of mediocore spare parts throughout the 4 seasons and hindered our chance to draft a legit superstar. He kinda tried the Philly method after they finished last in the league I think in 06 or 07. They rebounded pretty good, but they managed to pick up a couple great players that offseason and had some great luck with the development of Richards and Carter. Lowe's had the effort, but no success.
Sounds about right.

Jeebus.

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11-22-2009, 09:53 PM
  #48
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I do understand why the team has been hot after a franchise player, but as LT said recently, the 06 Oilers had a bottom six that was probably better than the top six. The formula is not as easy as sticking a Chris Pronger with a Ryan Smyth; you need good overall organizational depth to have success. If we were able to acquire those two tomorrow, do we immediately become SC finalists? No, because we haven't got Horcoff/Stoll/Peca/Reasoner down the middle and we have Chorney and Arsene in place of Tarnstrom and Spacek.

This team is still a long way from anywhere and I think that even if we could 'borrow' any single player in the league we still don't make the playoffs. Crosby couldn't do it on his own. Ovechkin couldn't. It's time to start over and do this right. Whether that's by signing vets to fight the kids for ice-time or by tanking, Tambo needs to pick a direction and commit to it or we're in for another four years of wheel-spinning.

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11-22-2009, 09:55 PM
  #49
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I do understand why the team has been hot after a franchise player, but as LT said recently, the 06 Oilers had a bottom six that was probably better than the top six. The formula is not as easy as sticking a Chris Pronger with a Ryan Smyth; you need good overall organizational depth to have success. If we were able to acquire those two tomorrow, do we immediately become SC finalists? No, because we haven't got Horcoff/Stoll/Peca/Reasoner down the middle and we have Chorney and Arsene in place of Tarnstrom and Spacek.

This team is still a long way from anywhere and I think that even if we could 'borrow' any single player in the league we still don't make the playoffs. Crosby couldn't do it on his own. Ovechkin couldn't. It's time to start over and do this right. Whether that's by signing vets to fight the kids for ice-time or by tanking, Tambo needs to pick a direction and commit to it or we're in for another four years of wheel-spinning.
^^^^This^^^^

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11-22-2009, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
I do understand why the team has been hot after a franchise player, but as LT said recently, the 06 Oilers had a bottom six that was probably better than the top six. The formula is not as easy as sticking a Chris Pronger with a Ryan Smyth; you need good overall organizational depth to have success. If we were able to acquire those two tomorrow, do we immediately become SC finalists? No, because we haven't got Horcoff/Stoll/Peca/Reasoner down the middle and we have Chorney and Arsene in place of Tarnstrom and Spacek.

This team is still a long way from anywhere and I think that even if we could 'borrow' any single player in the league we still don't make the playoffs. Crosby couldn't do it on his own. Ovechkin couldn't. It's time to start over and do this right. Whether that's by signing vets to fight the kids for ice-time or by tanking, Tambo needs to pick a direction and commit to it or we're in for another four years of wheel-spinning.
Good post.

Thing is, it's really not that hard to make this team respectable again.

Basically, it boils down to:

Decide on 89 or 13 and 77 or 37.

Pair the two together for a LW to play with 10 and 83, and then run out 27-89-19 as a 2nd line.

Flush 18, 24 and 12. Whether by trade or by burying... get it done. It's doable, Calgary has made that much obvious. Hell, so has Ottawa.

Then go out and sign a few cheap veteran players. Get a responsible LW to play with 67 and 85. Get a guy in the Marty Reasoner mold who can kill PK's and win faceoffs to be the 4th line C. Sign one of the veteran D who are available every year and a lot better than Strudwick for right around $1,000,000.

... and all of a sudden we're a top 6 team. You hope Gagner develops into Weight, but if he doesn't you're in a spot where you have enough assets to make a move for that elite player when it presents itself, instead of constantly living and dying over the top of the roster.

Understand we have an injury prone starting goalie and bring in a real backup who can hold the fort ofr a few weeks.

The top of our roster isn't great... but it's hardly terrible either. The same can't be said for the bottom half of our roster. And if I know one damn thing about professional sports, it's a hell of a lot easier to bring something from terrible to average than from average to great.

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