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Old
11-23-2009, 11:28 AM
  #51
VincenzosOil
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
I do understand why the team has been hot after a franchise player, but as LT said recently, the 06 Oilers had a bottom six that was probably better than the top six. The formula is not as easy as sticking a Chris Pronger with a Ryan Smyth; you need good overall organizational depth to have success. If we were able to acquire those two tomorrow, do we immediately become SC finalists? No, because we haven't got Horcoff/Stoll/Peca/Reasoner down the middle and we have Chorney and Arsene in place of Tarnstrom and Spacek.

This team is still a long way from anywhere and I think that even if we could 'borrow' any single player in the league we still don't make the playoffs. Crosby couldn't do it on his own. Ovechkin couldn't. It's time to start over and do this right. Whether that's by signing vets to fight the kids for ice-time or by tanking, Tambo needs to pick a direction and commit to it or we're in for another four years of wheel-spinning.
It's been 20 yrs that we've been barely treading water and for some of us that go back to day 1 of this NHL franchise, it has been a uneventful ride of mediocrity since 1990, a disheartening contrast of what we were and what we have become.

As armchair GM's/Coaches we can sit back and offer simple solutions and many of them. And that's the fun part of being a fan on this board and what generates a lot of stimulating and sometimes heated discussions. All in good fun.

But who here on this board has any real world experience in running a professional hockey team? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'll guess no one. We'll never know the complexities in running an NHL franchise; the dynamics of trading, the CBA, cap issues, coaching, rules, playing climate etc. I apologize if I sound patronizing. That is not my intent.

Mr. Bugg, you and many talk of picking a direction and sticking to it. Like that's all this team needs, a corporate ideal that we as a franchise would adhere to. That's fine and you offered a couple of solutions but that is no guarantee of success on the ice. What makes you think Tambo doesn't have a plan? And if Tambo does offer a public, organizational direction to the fans would that make the ensuing years of continued mediocrity bearable? Imo, organizational direction need not be static. It shoud be fluid and adaptable.

As for your option of tanking, how does a team tank without being transparent? How and why would you expect Tambo to tank a season or 2,3? I would expect the Oilers to ice the most competetive team utilizing whatever assets are available to us within and outside the organization. Look at NYI, LA, CHI, STL, etc. Tanking, intentional or otherwise, has certainly not helped the Isle, and what did Quinn say about Chicago last post game? Chicago had been a doormat for 8 yrs but they're an elite team now.

Chicago has been more like we have been the last 19 years but the point is there is no sure way to success. Chicago has had access to higher draft picks over the years than us but they got on a good run of drafting well and then topped it off with high picks Toews and Kane.

Either way, if Tambo picks a direction like you suggest or not, we're still headed for lost years in the wilderness.

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11-23-2009, 11:51 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
It's been 20 yrs that we've been barely treading water and for some of us that go back to day 1 of this NHL franchise, it has been a uneventful ride of mediocrity since 1990, a disheartening contrast of what we were and what we have become.

As armchair GM's/Coaches we can sit back and offer simple solutions and many of them. And that's the fun part of being a fan on this board and what generates a lot of stimulating and sometimes heated discussions. All in good fun.

But who here on this board has any real world experience in running a professional hockey team? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'll guess no one. We'll never know the complexities in running an NHL franchise; the dynamics of trading, the CBA, cap issues, coaching, rules, playing climate etc. I apologize if I sound patronizing. That is not my intent.

Mr. Bugg, you and many talk of picking a direction and sticking to it. Like that's all this team needs, a corporate ideal that we as a franchise would adhere to. That's fine and you offered a couple of solutions but that is no guarantee of success on the ice. What makes you think Tambo doesn't have a plan? And if Tambo does offer a public, organizational direction to the fans would that make the ensuing years of continued mediocrity bearable? Imo, organizational direction need not be static. It shoud be fluid and adaptable.

As for your option of tanking, how does a team tank without being transparent? How and why would you expect Tambo to tank a season or 2,3? I would expect the Oilers to ice the most competetive team utilizing whatever assets are available to us within and outside the organization. Look at NYI, LA, CHI, STL, etc. Tanking, intentional or otherwise, has certainly not helped the Isle, and what did Quinn say about Chicago last post game? Chicago had been a doormat for 8 yrs but they're an elite team now.

Chicago has been more like we have been the last 19 years but the point is there is no sure way to success. Chicago has had access to higher draft picks over the years than us but they got on a good run of drafting well and then topped it off with high picks Toews and Kane.

Either way, if Tambo picks a direction like you suggest or not, we're still headed for lost years in the wilderness.
Washington Capitals owner Ted Leonsis summarizes how he decided to do exactly what Bugg is talking about in the book Leafsabomination. They shipped out Jagr and every other player of worth to load up on draft picks and prospects. They got lucky in getting Ovechkin, but they have alot of other good young players to show for it. Certainly better than anything we have or may have coming down the pipe. It is what I endorse and should be considered by many at the very least.

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11-23-2009, 12:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Washington Capitals owner Ted Leonsis summarizes how he decided to do exactly what Bugg is talking about in the book Leafsabomination. They shipped out Jagr and every other player of worth to load up on draft picks and prospects. They got lucky in getting Ovechkin, but they have alot of other good young players to show for it. Certainly better than anything we have or may have coming down the pipe. It is what I endorse and should be considered by many at the very least.
That's interesting about Leonsis. Sounds like a good read.

Without a doubt Washington has turned into an arguably elite team. A lot of it depends on luck of the draw, pecking order and whether it's a good/bad draft year. And a lot depends on the teams scouting staff (see Detroit), though anything top 3 should be cut and dried as it was with Ovechkin.

But contrast that with Detroit. They have not been trading to stockpile high picks but rather have had an incredible run of late round picks turning into stars and have maintained their elite team status for almost 2 decades. My point is I don't think there is any sure way, a template for guaranteed success. LA is just now starting to see some success after how many yrs, decades of alternating between attempts at drafting to success or trading to success (you know, that Gretzky guy). Vancouver is another interesting team. How exactly did they achieve their success, DSF? I am not trying to be coy here but seems to me they have largely traded their way to a modicum of success and have sustained their competitive play for a while.

And to be honest, Vancouver would be the team I would like to emulate. Always competitive, in p/o's more often than not, a player or 2 away from truly becoming an elite team, team tough etc.

Idk, did I just say I liked Vancouver?

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11-23-2009, 12:45 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
And to be honest, Vancouver would be the team I would like to emulate. Always competitive, in p/o's more often than not, a player or 2 away from truly becoming an elite team, team tough etc.
No cups. No players to ever make the HOF. No thanks.

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11-23-2009, 12:55 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Horcoff's ice time this year needs to be taken with a grain of salt though due to the huge rash of injuries. I seem to remember early in the season noticing that Quinn was starting to cut Horcoff's ice time down to about what a 2nd/3rd line center should be getting. Then all the injuries hit, and naturally his ice time is going to shoot back up. With a perfectly healthy roster, Horcoff is likely the thrid line center behind Comrie and Gagner, who plays more situational minutes when we're defending a lead.

Well, we were healthy at the beginning of this year. What line did Horcoff play on then?

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11-23-2009, 01:10 PM
  #56
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Not that I am at all pleased with Horcoffs performance this year, but everyone on this board is an armchair GM/coach.

Two NHL coaches have given Horcoff the most TOI of all forwards on this team. There has got to be a reason for this. On the plus side, he is starting to turn it on offensively. I anticipate a 60-65 point season from him.

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11-23-2009, 01:14 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LawnDemon View Post
No cups. No players to ever make the HOF. No thanks.
Those cups and HoF players aren't helping us now.

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11-23-2009, 01:19 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
That's interesting about Leonsis. Sounds like a good read.

Without a doubt Washington has turned into an arguably elite team. A lot of it depends on luck of the draw, pecking order and whether it's a good/bad draft year. And a lot depends on the teams scouting staff (see Detroit), though anything top 3 should be cut and dried as it was with Ovechkin.

But contrast that with Detroit. They have not been trading to stockpile high picks but rather have had an incredible run of late round picks turning into stars and have maintained their elite team status for almost 2 decades. My point is I don't think there is any sure way, a template for guaranteed success. LA is just now starting to see some success after how many yrs, decades of alternating between attempts at drafting to success or trading to success (you know, that Gretzky guy). Vancouver is another interesting team. How exactly did they achieve their success, DSF? I am not trying to be coy here but seems to me they have largely traded their way to a modicum of success and have sustained their competitive play for a while.

And to be honest, Vancouver would be the team I would like to emulate. Always competitive, in p/o's more often than not, a player or 2 away from truly becoming an elite team, team tough etc.

Idk, did I just say I liked Vancouver?
The book is pretty bland and there isnt alot of juicy tidbits to be gleaned from it so I wouldnt recommend it really. You can have my copy if you like.

Why would you want to emulate Vancouver? At any rate they are successful (if you can call it that) because Burke made a bold move at the draft to get the twins, and they got lucky in a trade to move Bert for Luongo (all time bad trade list).

Detroit cannot be our model simply because we dont have the drawing power they do. Players want to go there and for much less than we would have to spend if they were to come here. They got really lucky (or really good scouting) with late picks overseas.

Washington is a Stanley cup contender and will be for years. We cant even make the playoffs and worse than that there is no payoff down the road for our futility. Mid round picks. That wont do it.

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11-23-2009, 01:21 PM
  #59
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Those cups and HoF players aren't helping us now.
Neither is what we are doing. We need a new way of thinking and doing things.

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11-23-2009, 01:36 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Areu4real View Post
I heard Tencer talking about O Sullivan and Gilbert having to play through their slumps, how does Horcoff escape these conversations? His agent and must have some good dirt on Kevin Lowe, who should be fired for offering this contract to him in the first place. The amount of icetime this tool sees and these are the stats he puts up. He is talked about as being something of a defensive center, - player again this year. They should put a helmet cam on this idiot as he has the best views in the house during far too many goals against. Time to lay off some of the other players, this bigger issue has two different colored eyes and cannot raise the puck on a one timer. Prove me wrong Horcoff, you gutless wonder!!
Hard to come down on the best hockey player on th eteam.

Seriously, youre comparing Horcoff to Nielson and Sullivan?

...................

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11-23-2009, 01:42 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Areu4real View Post
I heard Tencer talking about O Sullivan and Gilbert having to play through their slumps, how does Horcoff escape these conversations? His agent and must have some good dirt on Kevin Lowe, who should be fired for offering this contract to him in the first place. The amount of icetime this tool sees and these are the stats he puts up. He is talked about as being something of a defensive center, - player again this year. They should put a helmet cam on this idiot as he has the best views in the house during far too many goals against. Time to lay off some of the other players, this bigger issue has two different colored eyes and cannot raise the puck on a one timer. Prove me wrong Horcoff, you gutless wonder!!

Oct. 3 - Oct. 12: 5 GM 1G 1A -2
Oct. 14 - Oct. 27: 7GM 0G 0A -5 ????????????
Oct. 29 - Nov. 2: 3GM 1G 2A +1 Horpensky United.
Nov. 5 - 11: out four games to let Shoulder heeal a bit.
Nov. 15 - 21: 4GM 2G - 2A +1 Moves to LW??? playing with Shoulder???

Can you bright hockey minds figure out when he got hurt and how is he doing now.

Wonder what a point per game LW should be paid!

Anyone! Anyone!

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11-23-2009, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
Oct. 3 - Oct. 12: 5 GM 1G 1A -2
Oct. 14 - Oct. 27: 7GM 0G 0A -5 ????????????
Oct. 29 - Nov. 2: 3GM 1G 2A +1 Horpensky United.
Nov. 5 - 11: out four games to let Shoulder heeal a bit.
Nov. 15 - 21: 4GM 2G - 2A +1 Moves to LW??? playing with Shoulder???

Can you bright hockey minds figure out when he got hurt and how is he doing now.

Wonder what a point per game LW should be paid!
Now you are using points to justify Horcoff? Where do we get this "hockey knowledge" you speak of?

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11-23-2009, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Now you are using points to justify Horcoff? Where do we get this "hockey knowledge" you speak of?
Sometimes when dealing with a group you treat them like there are strong in there feild or they are kindergarten level.

I realize that I needed to bring out the crayons to get my point across.

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11-23-2009, 01:55 PM
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Sometimes when dealing with a group you treat them like there are strong in there feild or they are kindergarten level.

I realize that I needed to bring out the crayons to get my point across.
You dont have a point. Maybe you should go do some finger painting until you can think of one?

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11-23-2009, 01:56 PM
  #65
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As for your option of tanking, how does a team tank without being transparent? How and why would you expect Tambo to tank a season or 2,3? I would expect the Oilers to ice the most competetive team utilizing whatever assets are available to us within and outside the organization.
As has already been pointed out, Leonsis made no bones about the fact that the Capitals out-right tanked. Pittsburgh did it too- remember, they traded Jagr to Washington in the first place. Dick Tarnstrom lead them in scoring one year.

Teams can and will continue to tank without penalty from the league. They will probably experience a drop at the gate, but that's about the only tangible loss.

Quote:
Look at NYI, LA, CHI, STL, etc. Tanking, intentional or otherwise, has certainly not helped the Isle, and what did Quinn say about Chicago last post game? Chicago had been a doormat for 8 yrs but they're an elite team now.
Actually, you've proven my point.

NYI- Just got the 1st overall pick. They are out-pointing us and sit two points out of a playoff spot after finishing last in 08-09.

LAK- Have never had the 1st overall pick, but when they finally did break into the top two, they got Drew Doughty. He has been their #1 defender since Day 1 and the results show in the standings.

Stl- Former first overall selection Erik Johnson is the team's scoring leader. Otherwise, offense- from bluechip prospects to vets like Brad Boyes and Paul Kariya- has been non-existent. I'd point to coaching but it's really baffling what the issue is there.

Now, look at the top five in the standings:

SJ- Beneficiaries of two of the most lop-sided trades this decade.

Chicago- While Keith, et al have been major pieces, the Hawks returned to relevance when Kane (1st '07) arrived.

Washington- Alex Ovechkin (1st '04).

Pittsburgh- We all know the story here.

NJD- Consistently one of the best-drafting teams in the league.

A longer thread is needed on this particular issue, but it's safe to say 1st overall picks tend to be difference-makers.


Quote:
Chicago has been more like we have been the last 19 years but the point is there is no sure way to success.
Doesn't the above highlight that there in fact is?

Quote:
Chicago has had access to higher draft picks over the years than us but they got on a good run of drafting well and then topped it off with high picks Toews and Kane.
That 'good run of drafting' just so happened when they picked 3rd and 1st in consecutive years. You don't see any correlation there?

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Either way, if Tambo picks a direction like you suggest or not, we're still headed for lost years in the wilderness.
So? At least with a plan you're heading through the wilderness because you've got a map telling you a road should be X. What we're doing now is walking in circles.

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11-23-2009, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
Sometimes when dealing with a group you treat them like there are strong in there feild or they are kindergarten level.

I realize that I needed to bring out the crayons to get my point across.
What level is that?

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11-23-2009, 01:57 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by LawnDemon View Post
No cups. No players to ever make the HOF. No thanks.
I should clarify. I'm talking Van's recent history of team competitiveness and how they got there.

Washington has a great team to be sure and Ovechkin is a slam dunk HoFer but they have no cups yet. Vancouver is just as competitive a team, as are other teams. And really that is all I want for the Oilers to start. It's just a matter of how we get there.

My point is different means to the same end. If Tambo can trade us to respectability then I am all for it. If the team as it exists sinks to the lower depths without a conscious tank job and grab a top 3, great. It's a complicated business trying to ice a team to be reckoned with.

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11-23-2009, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
As has already been pointed out, Leonsis made no bones about the fact that the Capitals out-right tanked. Pittsburgh did it too- remember, they traded Jagr to Washington in the first place. Dick Tarnstrom lead them in scoring one year.

Teams can and will continue to tank without penalty from the league. They will probably experience a drop at the gate, but that's about the only tangible loss.
This is interesting. I will never condone tanking. In Leonsis' case the means don't justify the ends.


Quote:
Actually, you've proven my point.

NYI- Just got the 1st overall pick. They are out-pointing us and sit two points out of a playoff spot after finishing last in 08-09.
But how many top 3 picks and high draft picks have they had over the yrs? This small sample this year does not make up for yrs of drafting high and failing.

Quote:
LAK- Have never had the 1st overall pick, but when they finally did break into the top two, they got Drew Doughty. He has been their #1 defender since Day 1 and the results show in the standings.
This team has had many high drafts over the yrs. No guarantee of success but you would have to tip your hat to their scouting staff for recent draft success. Again, years of poor play are not undone by one top 2 draft.

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Stl- Former first overall selection Erik Johnson is the team's scoring leader. Otherwise, offense- from bluechip prospects to vets like Brad Boyes and Paul Kariya- has been non-existent. I'd point to coaching but it's really baffling what the issue is there.
I agree with you here. This team is puzzling but just like teams above with high drafts, small sample size.

Quote:
Now, look at the top five in the standings:

SJ- Beneficiaries of two of the most lop-sided trades this decade.

Chicago- While Keith, et al have been major pieces, the Hawks returned to relevance when Kane (1st '07) arrived.

Washington- Alex Ovechkin (1st '04).

Pittsburgh- We all know the story here.

NJD- Consistently one of the best-drafting teams in the league.

A longer thread is needed on this particular issue, but it's safe to say 1st overall picks tend to be difference-makers.
I don't dispute #1's are not difference makers. That would be foolish. But one can argue Detroit has been the most successful team the past decade. No high drafts there, just an outstanding scouting staff and good trading. Calgary, NJ, Dallas and others have acheived the same if not better success over longer period of time than some of the teams mentioned above through successful drafting and trades.
My point in all this is I don't see a need nor want to tank just for a #1-3 pick that may or may not lead to respectability. I just want this Oiler team to be competitive and there is no 1 easy way of getting there.


Quote:
Doesn't the above highlight that there in fact is?
No. Just because Leonsis comes out and admits tanking does not mean the Hawks did. They had drafted, and correct me if I'm wrong, some pretty decent defensemen prior to Toews and Kane. But you're right. Without those high picks they wouldn't be where they are.

Quote:
That 'good run of drafting' just so happened when they picked 3rd and 1st in consecutive years. You don't see any correlation there?
Sorry, what I meant was they had a pretty good run prior to Kane and Toews.

This team is similar to Pittsburgh with the 2 star forwards but Kane and Toews are no Crosby, Malkin. Not yet anyway. The difference between teams, imo, is Chicago has a better supporting cast especially the defense core. Good drafting culminating with T & K.


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So? At least with a plan you're heading through the wilderness because you've got a map telling you a road should be X. What we're doing now is walking in circles
The thing is you don't know if Tambo has a plan. I get the impression that because Tambo is not using one of the 2 plans you suggested, you think he is without direction.

Anyway, thanks for some interesting discussion.

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11-23-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
The thing is you don't know if Tambo has a plan. I get the impression that because Tambo is not using one of the 2 plans you suggested, you think he is without direction.
I think the Oilers really take their fanbase for granted. IMO, from a PR standpoint it would behoove Tambo to give a honest assessment of the team and his vision for it. That is, unless he actually thinks this team is just a few injuries away from being ready for prime time, in which case god help us all.

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11-23-2009, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
I think the Oilers really take their fanbase for granted. IMO, from a PR standpoint it would behoove Tambo to give a honest assessment of the team and his vision for it. That is, unless he actually thinks this team is just a few injuries away from being ready for prime time, in which case god help us all.
His pursuit of Heatley and the signing of Khabibulin would suggest a win now or at least stay the course plan of action. So would shuffling off a second round pick for a rental.

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11-23-2009, 03:45 PM
  #71
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
I think the Oilers really take their fanbase for granted. IMO, from a PR standpoint it would behoove Tambo to give a honest assessment of the team and his vision for it. That is, unless he actually thinks this team is just a few injuries away from being ready for prime time, in which case god help us all.[/QUOTE]
Lol

I agree with this. He is certainly under no obligation to but with a rabid fanbase like ours it would be nice if threw us a bone.

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11-23-2009, 05:37 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
Sometimes when dealing with a group you treat them like there are strong in there feild or they are kindergarten level.

I realize that I needed to bring out the crayons to get my point across.
Maybe you should put away the crayons and spend some time with a dictionary .

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11-23-2009, 06:16 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Stoneman89 View Post
Well, we were healthy at the beginning of this year. What line did Horcoff play on then?
Horcoff started on the first line, and based on comments from Quinn in training camp I expected he'd find his way down to the third line eventually if he didn't produce. He got off to his usual crappy start and was consequently knocked down to the second line as Comrie and Gagner were showing themselves to be more valuable scoring threats. Next stop for him was likely the third line. Then a big rash of injuries upset everything and Comrie got sick and remains sick.

I'm not saying Horcoff needs to be a 12-minute a night third liner, he can still be used situationally and receive more ice time than your typical third liner. But our offensive wingers cannot continue to be wasted by being stuck with a center who's offensive capabilites max out at that of a middle of the road second line center. Quinn gave him the benefit of the doubt out of camp, and Horcoff ran out of leash. Stupid amounts of injury and sickness then proceeded to tie Quinn's hands and the status quo returned. It won't continue once we get healthy, unless Horcoff keeps producing like he has the last few games.

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11-23-2009, 08:23 PM
  #74
bleed_oil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
i bet players talk about how much horcoff sucks all the time...and when he enters the room, everyone goes back to what they were doing...

I can seriously picture that happening.


Horc is what he is... a dependable (marginal) 2nd line and (solid) 3rd line center.
Its KLowes own stupidity that he signed him on a 1st line center.

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11-23-2009, 09:14 PM
  #75
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Between his ridiculous contracts, few assets for trade and a bunch of Lilliputians on the farm, Kevin Lowe has destroyed this club for the foreseeable future.

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