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"Sunday Huddle" Oil Leaders team meeting

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Old
11-22-2009, 04:45 PM
  #51
Gret99zky
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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
Id say the team doesn't need a shake up, needs an explosion [implosion?]. Best way to start- waive the captain. "Classless" to some but a shake up AND, more inportantly to HF, clears salary. Should send a message. I'd like to throw in Gilbert and PoS too.
Wow! Waive the captain?

That would take an absolute steel set of balls to do. Seriously.

Likely won't happen but I like the aggressiveness of the idea.

Good take.

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11-22-2009, 04:47 PM
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Wow! Waive the captain?

That would take an absolute steel set of balls to do. Seriously.

Likely won't happen but I like the aggressiveness of the idea.

Good take.
if management is scared to waive a captain who cant lead or play hockey if they think it would make our team better, they need to be replaced

waiving moreau wouldnt take a steel set of balls, it would take an intelligent hockey mind

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11-22-2009, 04:50 PM
  #53
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if management is scared to waive a captain who cant lead or play hockey if they think it would make our team better, they need to be replaced

waiving moreau wouldnt take a steel set of balls, it would take an intelligent hockey mind
That seems like a great way to show other players around the league that you dont care about your core players. Not a great way to get FA's interested in your org.

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11-22-2009, 04:57 PM
  #54
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That seems like a great way to show other players around the league that you dont care about your core players. Not a great way to get FA's interested in your org.
And were we attracting any in the first place? Its not about "core"-its about telling the league...this team is ready for change.

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11-22-2009, 05:01 PM
  #55
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We dont need ufa's. We need good prospects and draft picks. We do not have enough depth atm and we dont have enough grit in general to skid Moreau. The negatives outweigh the positives. That's how bad our reality is.

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11-22-2009, 05:07 PM
  #56
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Well I can't imagine it could hurt any

....

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11-22-2009, 05:16 PM
  #57
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hope he addresses the heart of some of these players...

i mean Sully got ripped yesterday on CBC, and i thought exactly the same when that one play occurred. He bailed, and that is unacceptable.
By Quinn? I caught the hot stove when Hrudy(?) pointed it out and Milburry just shook his head and offered to call up Quinn to let him know his thoughts. When I saw that I was "just... wow."

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11-22-2009, 05:20 PM
  #58
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By Quinn? I caught the hot stove when Hrudy(?) pointed it out and Milburry just shook his head and offered to call up Quinn to let him know his thoughts. When I saw that I was "just... wow."
im almost gonna guarantee that Quinn saw that. Everyone saw that, coast to coast!

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11-22-2009, 05:24 PM
  #59
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im almost gonna guarantee that Quinn saw that. Everyone saw that, coast to coast!
I didnt and the video on cbc.ca wont work. Its not on youtube either.

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11-22-2009, 05:25 PM
  #60
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That is how I read it as well. Push back by the veteran players. What a joke. They have earned nothing. Except the tag perennial loser.
Horcoff's language of entitlement is another negative intangible to add to the list.

Maybe he wanted to vent because he wants more PP time?

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11-22-2009, 05:40 PM
  #61
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Horcoff describes the communication as a give and take level playing field communication. Of his input being as important as Quinns in the moment to achieve some sense of resonant harmony

Horcoff is describing an inclusive, fact finding, meeting of heads meeting. He's describing a pleasant unintrusive meeting. A business as usual regular meeting.

Judging from the coaching staffs increasing narratives about the team and players not knowing anything about winning and reversion to habits to achieve losing I seriously doubt this was meant as a two way communication meeting with a percieved equal party.

That Horcoff thinks so may reduce how much input from the coaches is received because the players feel they are on equal standing of giving input.

Remember this is the same group of players that just succeeded in getting a coach fired and all too recently praised the new coaching staff effusively.

In this context the players would have very little credibility airing their concerns at this point.
I don't doubt for one second that this wasn't meant to be two way communication judging by the players' comments.

This stuff about equal standing of input, thats completely different than two way communication. If Horcoff or anyone else walked into the room with that mindset, that their opinion was just as good as the coaches' and thus they could pick and choose what they receive from the coaches.....well, I think they would get eaten alive very quickly and wouldn't be making such comments in the media afterwards. Anyone who thinks Quinn or Renney followed up by their advice by saying 'if you don't mind', is simply out to lunch.

"I don't want to say you show them the respect they deserve, but they have great knowledge and insight and you'd be a fool not to use it. I remember at the University of Alberta, coach Moores would say, 'Hey, guys, you're the ones out on the ice. Do you see anything? Any adjustments?' If Coach Moores did that with university players, then I would be a fool not to do it." - Cory Clouston

There's a reason why he won't say show them the respect they deserve, because he's the coach and they're the players, they listen to him. However, Clouston is a smart enough man to realize that players can have valuable input as well. And I have no doubt that this sort of communication is what Horcoff was referring to.

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Old
11-22-2009, 05:44 PM
  #62
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im almost gonna guarantee that Quinn saw that. Everyone saw that, coast to coast!
Yeah, but did he mention it specifically to the media?

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11-22-2009, 05:50 PM
  #63
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11-22-2009, 05:56 PM
  #64
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And were we attracting any in the first place? Its not about "core"-its about telling the league...this team is ready for change.
Touche and Touche.

I just think building a reputation of working well with players (after the ol' comrie, chimera etc fiascos) would help the club. Obviously not as much as a winning club though. I'm sure there are better ways to go about making changes and shaking up the team, although anything would probably make me feel better about the team right about now.

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11-22-2009, 05:57 PM
  #65
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Except one little portion that everyone *should* be bringing to their jobs, regardless of what they do: effort and hard work. You are excusing them on the basis that they are elite and require different mindsets to do their jobs. All the talent and technical skill in the world will not avail you anything without hard work.

Don't make excuses for them. If they are so special, their knowledge so sacred and esoteric, then they wouldn't need the advice or counsel of doctors, trainers, or the support staff that tend to their daily routines. They are regular guys who happened to show a natural talent with the game, and up until they made it to the NHL (at least with this group on our team) honed their abilities through hard work and dedication to their craft. I don't really think it's all that different than other people who train for years to get better at something, as a means of earning their keep in life. They are nowhere near as special or precious as you make them out to be. Give your head a shake.
You seem to have a great deal of anger towards these players. Probably entirely misdirected in general, but certainly when aimed at me specifically. You completely distorted what I was saying and then launched a highly personal attack against it. I sincerely hope you can see what's wrong with that.

Where and how did I ever make excuses for their play? Replacement inferred that his experience (personal or otherwise) with the "work force" would lend insight into how this players meeting with the Oilers should have gone and further an implication of knowledge of the best way to deal with said players to produce success. I pointed out that this type of knowledge doesn't share a strong correlation with the requirements of professional athletes. How is that an excuse?

What it is, is a specific reference to different methods likely being required for a job with a highly unique and specialized skill set. You harp endlessly on hard work, yet fail to acknowledge likely the most pertinent truth about athletes: hard work is almost always a requirement yet insufficient means of achieving success on it's own. Liam Reddox can work five times harder than every other player on the team. He's never going to be even a fraction of the player Ales Hemsky is. There's practically an infinite list of intangibles, reasons, and causes to describe how one athlete is able to have success over another. These are issues that simply don't chart very well to the general workforce. You state that they shouldn't be special because they require the constant consultation of doctors, trainers, or support staff yet to the contrary that's a massive indicator of why their job is special. How many other members of the work force require such specialized assistance to do their job? Athletes need that consultation specifically because of the highly specialized and unique requirements of their job.

I have to assume you've got no personal experience as a professional athlete. Perhaps listening to those who do would be the best way to formulate opinions on what is required of them and how to generate top performance. I recall Kelly Hrudey talking about this on CBC sometime in the last few years. He described at length how more often than not the players working the hardest were those struggling...they guys that were holding their sticks too tight that couldn't find the flow of the game and needed to learn to relax on the ice more than anything. Tom Gilbert is likely a contemporary example of this. You honestly think as his play has deteriorated here he's started easing up more than usual in practices??

High performance athletics requires peak performance out of both body and mind in ways that the vast majority of the work force simply doesn't require to successfully do their job. Unless of course you feel you can explain to me the peak performances of body and mind together that are required by truck drivers, construction workers, lawyers, accountants, and burger flippers. The only other profession I can think of off hand that shares many similar elements is that of the soldier. How does one explain why the soldier on the left gets shot and the one on the right lives on. If your answer is hard work I'd suggest you're a fool.

It should just be common sense that professional athletes are inherently no better than any other person on the face of the earth. But they do have a very unique and specialized job path that in turn comes with unique and specialized requirements. When you attempt to extrapolate lessons and patterns of success from a work force that for the most part doesn't share these same unique and specialized requirements it's likely at the very least making for a highly unfair comparison. If that's something you can't grasp then your head isn't even worth giving a shake.

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Old
11-22-2009, 06:00 PM
  #66
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Dunno, from what I heard Horc's comments sounded good. Sounded like Quinn was more the driving force in the meeting to get the train back on the rails. Constructive criticism meant to address alot of issues that have plagued this team for a long time.

But it was also about making sure things were going two ways. If a player is having an issue, better that the coach can find out their POV to understand what they are working with. Doesn't entitle the players to be writing the playbook. Coaches just have a deeper view to better make decisions, or not.

I think now that the first quarter is done, Quinn is done evaluating and is out to start putting his stamp on the team. I've seen this type of thing in the workplace, so expect some bumps in the road as the team culture switches over. And I don't mean bodies in/out, more so players making mental shifts.

And I don't think players like Gags will be immune, he already had an exchange with Renney earlier in the season when the Kid Line was very temporarily re-assembled. So even the youngsters may have chips on their shoulders that will get knocked off.

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11-22-2009, 06:06 PM
  #67
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I wonder if they can institute something along the lines of this simple procedure. If a player makes a certain number of dumb/major mistakes (not skating is also considered one) within a couple of games then he is automatically benched and a younger player gets called up. This would eliminate any personal issues like "the coach doesn't like me". And it will remove any sense of entitlement. Not sure it would work but I don't see major downsides to this.

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11-22-2009, 06:31 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
We dont need ufa's. We need good prospects and draft picks. We do not have enough depth atm and we dont have enough grit in general to skid Moreau. The negatives outweigh the positives. That's how bad our reality is.
Enough grit, not enough grit. It doesn't really matter when ultimately, the team is gonna tank/bomb anyway. Moreau is one of the characters that could leave that "residual" effect on the team. Kind of like whats happening right now. Years of bad habits are hard to break away from.

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11-22-2009, 06:34 PM
  #69
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I wonder if they can institute something along the lines of this simple procedure. If a player makes a certain number of dumb/major mistakes (not skating is also considered one) within a couple of games then he is automatically benched and a younger player gets called up. This would eliminate any personal issues like "the coach doesn't like me". And it will remove any sense of entitlement. Not sure it would work but I don't see major downsides to this.
Wouldn't that screw up our waivers eligibility on players blah blah? I'd say full on bench for games where the players **** the bed is more than enough. Screw even more, pressbox and have the 13th [14th even?] sub in.

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11-22-2009, 07:16 PM
  #70
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Wouldn't that screw up our waivers eligibility on players blah blah? I'd say full on bench for games where the players **** the bed is more than enough. Screw even more, pressbox and have the 13th [14th even?] sub in.
Yeah, I think Quinn is on the right track. The fact Gilbert sat after being a complete non-factor defensively on those two goals reassures me. And the fact he's willing to put Gagner on the fourth tells me he isn't buying into any hype surrounding anyone on the roster.

And to be fair, when Gilbert had a better game next time out he got ice time.

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11-22-2009, 07:19 PM
  #71
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I don't doubt for one second that this wasn't meant to be two way communication judging by the players' comments.

This stuff about equal standing of input, thats completely different than two way communication. If Horcoff or anyone else walked into the room with that mindset, that their opinion was just as good as the coaches' and thus they could pick and choose what they receive from the coaches.....well, I think they would get eaten alive very quickly and wouldn't be making such comments in the media afterwards. Anyone who thinks Quinn or Renney followed up by their advice by saying 'if you don't mind', is simply out to lunch.

"I don't want to say you show them the respect they deserve, but they have great knowledge and insight and you'd be a fool not to use it. I remember at the University of Alberta, coach Moores would say, 'Hey, guys, you're the ones out on the ice. Do you see anything? Any adjustments?' If Coach Moores did that with university players, then I would be a fool not to do it." - Cory Clouston

There's a reason why he won't say show them the respect they deserve, because he's the coach and they're the players, they listen to him. However, Clouston is a smart enough man to realize that players can have valuable input as well. And I have no doubt that this sort of communication is what Horcoff was referring to.
Moores was coaching a perenial championship team with a great attitude that WANTED to win.

Thats a big difference in example.

I don't doubt with players that have shown value you allow them their input. On this club right now guys like Vish, Khabi, Sully, Penner, even Smid have earned input. Most of the others have struggled and should be doing most of the listening. We saw how well vet leadership and direction worked on this team previously.
A lot of these players have shown utter confusion on the ice and seem to have more questions than answers. As such they should be listening more than talking.

At this point.

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11-22-2009, 07:40 PM
  #72
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With all due respect have you been in the work force very long? When an org is chronically faltering and production, morale, attitude, have been abysmal for years and then the company hires a "ringer" to "readjust" the company attitude you shouldn't be expecting pleasantry and a wine and cheese meeting.

This kind of strip the paint off walls meeting is usually one way. Its basically what Quinn was hired here to do.

The players lost the right to have much input through their missing the playoffs 3 years in a row. Quinn actually states this. That the players, (he stops just short of calling them losers) haven't figured out how to win and don't know how.
this post for the win.... QFT!... +1.... and whatever other "internet language" that implies that i agree 100% with this post

the current players on the oilers are losers and have earned nothing (other than mostly undeserved paychecks)... they have not earned the right for "2 way" communication... they have not earned the right to "voice their opinion"... they are *not* professionals in any way other than the paycheck they take home - they are certainly not anybodys idea of what professional hockey players are supposed to be

quinn was hired to change the culture of this team, and the veterans think they deserve some input? wow... that says volumes about what the real problem is with this team (hint: it wasn't mactavish)

if a CEO is hired in a company to change the culture, generally the process is not pleasant.... why would it be different for the oilers organization? other than the veterans misplaced sense of entitlement

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11-22-2009, 08:14 PM
  #73
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this post for the win.... QFT!... +1.... and whatever other "internet language" that implies that i agree 100% with this post

the current players on the oilers are losers and have earned nothing (other than mostly undeserved paychecks)... they have not earned the right for "2 way" communication... they have not earned the right to "voice their opinion"... they are *not* professionals in any way other than the paycheck they take home - they are certainly not anybodys idea of what professional hockey players are supposed to be

quinn was hired to change the culture of this team, and the veterans think they deserve some input? wow... that says volumes about what the real problem is with this team (hint: it wasn't mactavish)

if a CEO is hired in a company to change the culture, generally the process is not pleasant.... why would it be different for the oilers organization? other than the veterans misplaced sense of entitlement
Yep.

Very well stated too. We're definitely seeing this the same way.

Its interesting though that more and more Quinn says things to this group of players that I would want said to them...

Its gotten so quite a few fans enjoy looking at the postgame interviews about as much as watching the on ice performances.

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11-22-2009, 08:15 PM
  #74
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Milbury used to be GM of the Islanders and he basically got fleeced in every trade he made.

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11-22-2009, 08:17 PM
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We have leaders? News to me.

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