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"Sunday Huddle" Oil Leaders team meeting

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Old
11-23-2009, 11:54 AM
  #101
hemskysuncle
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This thread is a great example of how fans love to think they know 10 times what any of the people know that actually play the game, coach the game or manage the team. At the same time, it is a great example of how those very same fans would make core altering decisions based on quick fired-up emotion instead of level-headed logic and well thought out analysis.

1. Horcoff said nothing wrong and as representative of the team both to the NHLPA as the player rep voted by his teammates, and due to the letter A on his sweater as awarded by the coaching staff, he IS "entitled" to vent, which simply means getting whats on his mind onto the table so it can be dealt with. As was mentioned, there is no clue what the venting was about...it could be about himself for all you know.

2. trading/dropping/waiving Moreau is stupid. I agree that there is a better choice for captain on the team, however, moreau is not the liability or dead weight he was last year. he is still very "simple" on the ice, but at least his effort level is making his "simple" have an effect on the game. he is not taking SO many stupid penalties (the one against the hawks was bogus and really had no effect on the outcome anyways).

3. It is quite apparent that the coaching change will not have the same affect as it did, for example, in Washington when Boudreau was hired. That was a case of the wrong coach on the wrong team. this is becoming obvious that it is a case of deconstructing a mess and putting it back together the way it should be, not neccesarily using different parts...it reminds me a bit of undoing a brainwashing . Patience and persistence is whats needed and that is why people as successful and experienced as quinn and renney were a requirement for this job.

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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
Ever notice that its usually the fringe players or the rookies on the team that attempt to give some semblance of effort during play? May not be the most successfull [the Reddox, Jacques, Gagner, Stone-ish players] The veterans [Gilbert among one of them] are the ones with set contracts-what have they got to lose other than some ice time. For some reason, it seems like Cogliano also fits with the latter group despite being a part of that "rookie core"...something just reeks of arrogance from the guy.
For the most part I agree with this...up until Cogliano's name was mentioned. His effort is probably top 3 or 4 on the team. He has been dealt a **** hand (he probably deserves to be on theh 2nd or at least 3rd line but is stuck with the goons on the 4th) and has used the opporunity to improve aspects of his game like hitting, forechecking and board work. He is the main reason the 4th line makes any dents in the opposition at all.

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11-23-2009, 12:01 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by hemskysuncle View Post
2. trading/dropping/waiving Moreau is stupid. I agree that there is a better choice for captain on the team, however, moreau is not the liability or dead weight he was last year. he is still very "simple" on the ice, but at least his effort level is making his "simple" have an effect on the game. he is not taking SO many stupid penalties (the one against the hawks was bogus and really had no effect on the outcome anyways).
The guy takes penalties at exactly the wrong time. That's his MO. He's been brutal.

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3. It is quite apparent that the coaching change will not have the same affect as it did, for example, in Washington when Boudreau was hired. That was a case of the wrong coach on the wrong team. this is becoming obvious that it is a case of deconstructing a mess and putting it back together the way it should be, not neccesarily using different parts...it reminds me a bit of undoing a brainwashing . Patience and persistence is whats needed and that is why people as successful and experienced as quinn and renney were a requirement for this job.
This is really an excellent, excellent way to put this. Thank you!

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11-23-2009, 12:21 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by hemskysuncle View Post

2. trading/dropping/waiving Moreau is stupid. I agree that there is a better choice for captain on the team, however, moreau is not the liability or dead weight he was last year. he is still very "simple" on the ice, but at least his effort level is making his "simple" have an effect on the game. he is not taking SO many stupid penalties (the one against the hawks was bogus and really had no effect on the outcome anyways).
his quote leads me to believe he either doesn't want to buy in 100% or he doesn't believe what the coaches are telling him or both.

ergo, he is part of the problem.

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11-23-2009, 12:24 PM
  #104
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Horcoff said something, lets look for something, anything that we can write to attack.

He said vent. It must mean the players were upset about call outs. It must mean that he yelled at Quinn, it must mean......, it must mean....

Basically he followed up that comment about venting with the acknowledgment that it was a positive meeting but that the players gave their viewpoints as well. What else would you expect from a 90 minute meeting? Of couse both sides gave their viewponts and both sides "vented" their feelings on the matter.

I could make all sorts of guesses on what venting means and I could spin in a positive way but frankly there is no reason. The proof will be in the pudding.

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11-23-2009, 12:33 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Horcoff said something, lets look for something, anything that we can write to attack.

He said vent. It must mean the players were upset about call outs. It must mean that he yelled at Quinn, it must mean......, it must mean....

Basically he followed up that comment about venting with the acknowledgment that it was a positive meeting but that the players gave their viewpoints as well. What else would you expect from a 90 minute meeting? Of couse both sides gave their viewponts and both sides "vented" their feelings on the matter.

I could make all sorts of guesses on what venting means and I could spin in a positive way but frankly there is no reason. The proof will be in the pudding.
We dont know exactly what he meant by that but it doesnt look good. Venting is letting off steam which usually means getting something that has been bothering you off your chest. What could be bothering Horcoff? Problems with the new system, new coach or coaches, or other players?

There are not too many choices really. Maybe you can think of some more. The ones I listed are not too appealing and imo he has little right to vent about any of them, considering his sad start to the season and the size of his paycheque.

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11-23-2009, 12:37 PM
  #106
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We dont know exactly what he meant by that but it doesnt look good. Venting is letting off steam which usually means getting something that has been bothering you off your chest. What could be bothering Horcoff? Problems with the new system, new coach or coaches, or other players?

There are not too many choices really. Maybe you can think of some more. The ones I listed are not too appealing and imo he has little right to vent about any of them, considering his sad start to the season and the size of his paycheque.
Wouldn't you be bothered by losing? If he wasn't bothered I would be concerned. Everyone would have vented. I would have vented, the coaches vented. Everyone vented. It just means they made their thoughts and opinions known. I would hope so in a 90 minute meeting.

Frankly I don't see how it looks bad and context is important! People have taken one word of a sentence and made it look negative.

What he said was completely reasonable.

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11-23-2009, 12:46 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Wouldn't you be bothered by losing? If he wasn't bothered I would be concerned. Everyone would have vented. I would have vented, the coaches vented. Everyone vented. It just means they made their thoughts and opinions known. I would hope so in a 90 minute meeting.

Frankly I don't see how it looks bad and context is important! People have taken one word of a sentence and made it look negative.

What he said was completely reasonable.
Moreau made some questionable comments about the coaching staff bringing up the "culture" of the team and how it has to change. He takes offense to them doing that. Pretty much says it all right there. If they dont think that what they are doing is wrong, how can you expect anything to change? And he is our captain? Sheesh.

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11-23-2009, 12:53 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by sync View Post
his quote leads me to believe he either doesn't want to buy in 100% or he doesn't believe what the coaches are telling him or both.

ergo, he is part of the problem.
i have never liked his interviews...he really never makes me believe he says what he thinks.

however, i really doubt that he would have retained the C if Quinn was not confident Moreau was fully behind what he wanted to do.

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11-23-2009, 01:05 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Wouldn't you be bothered by losing? If he wasn't bothered I would be concerned. Everyone would have vented. I would have vented, the coaches vented. Everyone vented. It just means they made their thoughts and opinions known. I would hope so in a 90 minute meeting.

Frankly I don't see how it looks bad and context is important! People have taken one word of a sentence and made it look negative.

What he said was completely reasonable.
I hate losing. I suck at my job, but regardless, since I hate losing, I'm "entitled" to *****? It's not the first time the make up of the team, not necessarily from a performance standpoint but character, has been questioned by media, coaching and the fans.

Until the player puts some results consistently, they are in the passengers' seat. Either a put up or a shut up.

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11-23-2009, 01:08 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by hemskysuncle View Post
i have never liked his interviews...he really never makes me believe he says what he thinks.

however, i really doubt that he would have retained the C if Quinn was not confident Moreau was fully behind what he wanted to do.
I like to think this year as Quinn's "evaluation of the team" year. Once he realizes certain pieces just don't make the cut, I don't doubt he'd axe Moreau without blinking an eye.

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11-23-2009, 01:24 PM
  #111
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I like to think this year as Quinn's "evaluation of the team" year. Once he realizes certain pieces just don't make the cut, I don't doubt he'd axe Moreau without blinking an eye.
I agree to a certain point, but a coach needs to have his captain behind him if he is going to put any kind of new system in place. he needs "someone in the field". without that, the system fails, 100% guaranteed.

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11-23-2009, 02:22 PM
  #112
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To those that are criticizing any speculation on what went on in the meeting is it not obvious that fans would do this in the absence of more detailed information?

That we then attempt to discuss and speculate on unknowns using all the knowns available to us is normal.

I don't claim to know what went on in that meeting in detail and never said that. But still my observations resonated with many others due to us recognizing similar trends and themes.

Many of the same themes that Quinn, the headcoach, has himself identified.

-For instance that there is a losing culture on this club.

-That this club does not know how to Win.

-That some of the players on this club think they know better but really don't know what it takes to win.

-That the club lacks hockey intelligence.

-That the club is weak and reverts to panic under pressure and does not stick to the game plan.

-That the coaching staff are very frustrated that the messages to players have been repeated and players are not taking the direction and following through.

-We know from the coaching staff that there has been ample resistance to change.

The thing is if you take enough narrative messages from the coaching staff(who are in the position to assess and indeed their job) then you can establish what some of the broader narrative problems are.

Some of my comments have been "ringing true" to others because I am trying to apply as much information from all sources that has been stated and coming to some themes from that.

But again the point is in the absence of full disclosure which rarely happens there are going to be attempts to fill in the pieces that are not revealed in detail. But using as many of the known stated pieces as possible in doing that.

In shortest terms using the sum of knowns to approximate the unknown.

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11-23-2009, 02:28 PM
  #113
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In shortest terms using the sum of knowns to approximate the unknown.
I need some mushrooms.

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11-23-2009, 02:47 PM
  #114
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I'm not currently in the workforce at all. I'm still in school.

But Replacement, I know you like to preface your posts by citing my (and others') ages as a way of formulating an opinion on the current state of this team. Because I wasn't able to witness the glory days, I have a lesser grasp on what's considered good.

I've called you on that before.

Now you're asking me about being in the workforce. I find that irrelevant.

So I'm going to ask you something. Although I'm not a professional, I did play a high level of hockey and I know what goes on during successful team meetings (at least from my experience).

So with all due respect, how many team meetings have you been involved in?

I remember a few years ago when our team went through a stretch of 6-straight losses. We were playing crappy hockey, my play sucked, and I was wearing the C at the time.

For about 45 minutes, our coaches "vented" to us about our play. But it wasn't a session of pure criticism either; they spoke to us about what we've been doing wrong and how to productively correct these issues on the ice. They instilled a sense of openness in that room that allowed us to more objectively see what was going wrong with our game.

After that speech, the coaches opened the floor. Whether it was because I was the captain or not, they asked me to speak. I found myself going on for nearly 30 minutes about how the issues that surrounded the team - but most importantly, I was able to give them an objective view of how I saw my own game. Knowing that there were endless issues with our game, I dissected my own play and began to realize what I was doing wrong out there (which was a lot of things at that time).

Following that, we began to talk as a team. We spoke to each other about what we expected from each other, and ourselves. Generally speaking, the harder each individual worked, the easier it was to rely on your teammates and play as a unit out on the ice.

Bu the point I'm trying to make is that the coaches instilled that open floor and allowed everyone to contribute and add what they felt needed to be said. Everyone expressed their opinion and we left the meeting feeling that we accomplished something; we felt like more of a team.

So without knowing what was said in that meeting, how can we formulate any kind of opinion based on a single quote from Horcoff. Frankly, I'd have a huge issue if the coaching staff went into that room this morning and blasted the guys for 90 minutes. How are you supposed to establish a team when it's a one-way street of communication?

I know what Quinn said. But you also have to keep in mind what Renney said a few days ago - something about Quinn not letting anyone on this team off the hook. The accountability is through the roof, from what we can attain from various media reports and the associate coach's opinion.

There's no way Shawn Horcoff enters that room and vents to anyone. He's just as much part of the problem, and it would be foolish to think the coaching staff doesn't understand this. Other than Dustin Penner, there really isn't anyone who isn't part of the problem right now.
Thank god, someone who understands the culture of team. Nice post and very accurate in my experience.

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11-23-2009, 02:55 PM
  #115
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All in all, actions speak louder than words and I hope this sinks in for these players. It will all be for naught if they continue on this slide down the standings.
Time to nut up or shut up.

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11-23-2009, 03:06 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by hemskysuncle View Post
3. It is quite apparent that the coaching change will not have the same affect as it did, for example, in Washington when Boudreau was hired. That was a case of the wrong coach on the wrong team. this is becoming obvious that it is a case of deconstructing a mess and putting it back together the way it should be, not neccesarily using different parts...it reminds me a bit of undoing a brainwashing . Patience and persistence is whats needed and that is why people as successful and experienced as quinn and renney were a requirement for this job.

yeah that's a pretty solid assessment of it IMO. Give them time to either rewire some of the player that they need to or come to the conclusion that the player is unsalvagable. Don't make knee jerk reactions just let Quinn hammer away at it and see where it gets. It can take time to get players to change deeply set habits that need changing, there isn't going to be a magic bullet trade to fix this so show some patience.

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11-23-2009, 03:07 PM
  #117
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All in all, actions speak louder than words and I hope this sinks in for these players. It will all be for naught if they continue on this slide down the standings.
Time to nut up or shut up.
Doubt it. The next game is a PPV game

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11-23-2009, 03:13 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Horcoff said something, lets look for something, anything that we can write to attack.

He said vent. It must mean the players were upset about call outs. It must mean that he yelled at Quinn, it must mean......, it must mean....

Basically he followed up that comment about venting with the acknowledgment that it was a positive meeting but that the players gave their viewpoints as well. What else would you expect from a 90 minute meeting? Of couse both sides gave their viewponts and both sides "vented" their feelings on the matter.

I could make all sorts of guesses on what venting means and I could spin in a positive way but frankly there is no reason. The proof will be in the pudding.
BTW for everyone arguing in this thread, you might want to take time to actually read the quote:

"Honestly, we went over everything imaginable," said Shawn Horcoff after the group finally emerged. "That's a good thing to do. He vented to us, he told us some things we needed to hear, and we let him know what we're seeing as well."

At NO point does Horcoff suggest that himself or any of the vets were `venting` about anything.

Seriously, just more mountain out of molehill stuff around here.

Horcoff is hurt, 7 points in 7 games, and the hate for him is prepostorous. I`m not a Horcoff booster but ffs lets get back to reality here.

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11-23-2009, 03:19 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
I hate losing. I suck at my job, but regardless, since I hate losing, I'm "entitled" to *****? It's not the first time the make up of the team, not necessarily from a performance standpoint but character, has been questioned by media, coaching and the fans.

Until the player puts some results consistently, they are in the passengers' seat. Either a put up or a shut up.
So you are entitled to vent but we have the criticism for a team player to vent? Of course they vented!

And we agree since I since the proof will be in the pudding.

Everything else that has read between the lines from the fans here means absolutely squat! I could less about everyone's intrepretation of some inverviews that came from the meeting!

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11-23-2009, 03:20 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
BTW for everyone arguing in this thread, you might want to take time to actually read the quote:

"Honestly, we went over everything imaginable," said Shawn Horcoff after the group finally emerged. "That's a good thing to do. He vented to us, he told us some things we needed to hear, and we let him know what we're seeing as well."

At NO point does Horcoff suggest that himself or any of the vets were `venting` about anything.

Seriously, just more mountain out of molehill stuff around here.

Horcoff is hurt, 7 points in 7 games, and the hate for him is prepostorous. I`m not a Horcoff booster but ffs lets get back to reality here.
This was the quote taken from the article on edmontonoilers.com:

"We were in there for a while, so we went over probably everything imaginable you can think of," Horcoff said shortly after leaving the meeting. "It's a good thing to do, for us to vent. He vented on us about some things that we needed to hear and we let him know what we're seeing also.

Who is "us"? Would he refer to the coaches as "us"?

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11-23-2009, 03:21 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
BTW for everyone arguing in this thread, you might want to take time to actually read the quote:

"Honestly, we went over everything imaginable," said Shawn Horcoff after the group finally emerged. "That's a good thing to do. He vented to us, he told us some things we needed to hear, and we let him know what we're seeing as well."

At NO point does Horcoff suggest that himself or any of the vets were `venting` about anything.

Seriously, just more mountain out of molehill stuff around here.

Horcoff is hurt, 7 points in 7 games, and the hate for him is prepostorous. I`m not a Horcoff booster but ffs lets get back to reality here.
Actually an earlier quote he said the players vented. So basically we have two quotes that everyone vented.

No kidding sherlocks!

Wow, everyone vented in a 90 minute meeting. Wow, huge shock and controversy!

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11-23-2009, 03:23 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
This was the quote taken from the article on edmontonoilers.com:

"We were in there for a while, so we went over probably everything imaginable you can think of," Horcoff said shortly after leaving the meeting. "It's a good thing to do, for us to vent. He vented on us about some things that we needed to hear and we let him know what we're seeing also.

Who is "us"? Would he refer to the coaches as "us"?
"Us" where it is used there I would take it as the entire group (vets and coaches). Otherwise in the rest of the article "us" to me is referring to just the vets.

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11-23-2009, 03:24 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
BTW for everyone arguing in this thread, you might want to take time to actually read the quote:

"Honestly, we went over everything imaginable," said Shawn Horcoff after the group finally emerged. "That's a good thing to do. He vented to us, he told us some things we needed to hear, and we let him know what we're seeing as well."

At NO point does Horcoff suggest that himself or any of the vets were `venting` about anything.

Seriously, just more mountain out of molehill stuff around here.

Horcoff is hurt, 7 points in 7 games, and the hate for him is prepostorous. I`m not a Horcoff booster but ffs lets get back to reality here.
Where did you get this from? Do you have a link? Sounds like someone just reworded the original article. Is plagiarism acceptable for journalists? Was a source mentioned?

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11-23-2009, 03:26 PM
  #124
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"Us" where it is used there I would take it as the entire group (vets and coaches). Otherwise in the rest of the article "us" to me is referring to just the vets.
So us posters who take issue with the fact that these players have anything to vent about would be on the right track?

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11-23-2009, 03:28 PM
  #125
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Where did you get this from? Do you have a link? Sounds like someone just reworded the original article. Is plagiarism acceptable for journalists? Was a source mentioned?
Why do you need that? The quote you gave us gave the same info.

We were in there for a while, so we went over probably everything imaginable you can think of," Horcoff said shortly after leaving the meeting. "It's a good thing to do, for us to vent. He vented on us about some things that we needed to hear and we let him know what we're seeing also.

Note that the coach vented in bold. The players vented in italic! There you have it.

Everyone vented! Huge shock!

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