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Team 1260 talking this morning.

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Old
11-24-2009, 03:03 PM
  #101
Reimer
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
How would they look with Luongo and Chara?
Ahhh yes Chara. I forgot taht he was even drafted by the Isles. Bet he was happier than all hell to get out of there.

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11-24-2009, 03:06 PM
  #102
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Ahhh yes Chara. I forgot taht he was even drafted by the Isles. Bet he was happier than all hell to get out of there.
They also drafted Redden and Brewer. Redden and Chara for Yashin. That is why they suck. Also if you look, they havent drafted in the top five much at all lately. They cant really be looked at in the tank debate, simply because of such poor management. Tavares looks pretty good though and is much better than any young player we have on the team or in the system.

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11-24-2009, 03:09 PM
  #103
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So they didnt care and they won?
It didn't matter to them whether they won or not but MacT told them to win for pride and for the "fans"...at that point, I think the fans didn't care either or aswell

I know I was hoping for a loss so we'd get into the lottery

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11-24-2009, 03:10 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
They also drafted Redden and Brewer. Redden and Chara for Yashin. That is why they suck. Also if you look, they havent drafted in the top five much at all lately. They cant really be looked at in the tank debate, simply because of such poor management. Tavares looks pretty good though and is much better than any young player we have on the team or in the system.
Shhh. Don't tell that to the posters who think 1st overall draftees aren't worth the hassle

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11-24-2009, 03:26 PM
  #105
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The Islanders have been awful because of poor management and its nothing to do with tanking. They have had some of the best players in the league come up through their organization only to be traded. We simply dont have the option to do it another way. Its either stay the course or rebuild. The players play hard, they dont intentionally drop games, the coaches try to win as well. Its called rebuilding, not tanking, and is something that will have to be done. And please, no talk about how we are in the middle of a rebuild, that is not the case at all.
It doesn't matter how they got there, they have had quite a few high draft picks over the yrs and are still a poor team, this season excepted. Management sucked, without question, Milbury being the poster boy. You mention Chara, Luongo, Jokinen and there were other deals too that hilited their mismanagement.

I know you call it rebuilding and not tanking but how do we rebuild as you see it without intentionally tanking? The players play, coaches coach and everybody is out there to win. So, without the Owner, President, GM not conspiring on a management level to gut the team, how do we begin the rebuilding process if really, everything is status quo?

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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
I agree. However, when there are two players as highly touted as Hall/Seguin, what have you really got to lose? Then again, the Oiler scouts might do something stupid and pull a WTF moment.

Someone buy our scouts subscription to the ISS.
Lol - Someone show our scouts this HFBoard site as there are probably more guys here with an in-depth knowledge of draft prospects than anywhere.

About Hall/Seguin, how would you go about telling Quinn that "hey we're gunning for # 1. No, not standings, draft pick"?

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11-24-2009, 03:34 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
About Hall/Seguin, how would you go about telling Quinn that "hey we're gunning for # 1. No, not standings, draft pick"?
Trade all the good vets- there isn't much the coach can do about that- and then tell Quinn to play the heck out of the kids, trying on every one in the system (McDonald, Paukovich, etc.)

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11-24-2009, 03:38 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
They also drafted Redden and Brewer. Redden and Chara for Yashin. That is why they suck. Also if you look, they havent drafted in the top five much at all lately. They cant really be looked at in the tank debate, simply because of such poor management. Tavares looks pretty good though and is much better than any young player we have on the team or in the system.
Just looked it up it actually gets better. They traded Yashin to teh Isles for Chara, Muckalt and the 2nd overall pick in the '01 draft which turned into Spezza, lol.

This is how the Redden trade went down:

"He was the New York Islanders' first pick in the 1995 NHL Entry Draft, second overall, but he never joined the Islanders. He was then traded to Ottawa by the Islanders along with Damian Rhodes for Don Beaupre, Martin Straka and Bryan Berard."

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11-24-2009, 04:14 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by MrOiler View Post
Draft picks are crap shoots. It's way too high a risk. For every Sid the Kid, there's three Alexander Daigles or Doug Wickenheisers.

Count me out. Tanking the season is a suckers bet.
Ahh I didn't realize the real discussion was in this thread.

Not to single out your post here as this is directed towards everyone who thinks drafting high is just a pure crapshoot, but it's a good segue into actually looking at the type of talent you're likely to get.

2009

1. Tavares ES
2. Hedman ES
3. Duchene U
4. Kane U
5. Schenn U

2008

1. Stamkos ES
2. Doughty ES
3. Bogosian ES
4. Pietrangelo U
5. Schenn U

2007

1. Kane ES
2. JVR U
3. Turris U
4. Hickey U
5. Alzner U

2006

1. EJ ES
2. J. Staal ES
3. Toews ES
4. Backstrom ES
5. Kessel ES

2005

1. Crosby ES
2. Ryan ES
3. JJ S
4. B Pouliot B
5. Price ES

2004

1. Ovechkin ES
2. Malkin ES
3. Barker S
4. Ladd B
5. Wheeler S

2003

1. MAF ES
2. E. Staal ES
3. Horton S
4. Zherdev B
5. Vanek ES

2002

1. Nash ES
2. Lehtonen S
3. Bouwmeester ES
4. Pitkanen S
5. Whitney S

2001

1. Kovalchuk ES
2. Spezza ES
3. Svitov B
4. Weiss S
5. Chistov B

2000

1. DiPietro S
2. Heatley ES
3. Gaborik ES
4. Klesla B
5. Torres B

That's the last 10 years.

To give some further perspective I'll broke it down like this:

ES = Epic Success = Marquee, allstar caliber players and up.

S = Quality/High quality regular NHLers

B = Bust, relative to their draft position...this means you Raffi.

U = Still unknown at this point

Overall:

1. 9 ES/1 S
2. 8 ES/1 S/1 U
3. 4 ES/3 S/1 B/2 U
4. 1 ES/2 S/4 B/3 U
5. 3 ES/2 S/2 B/3 U

Key Points
  • Picking at 1 or 2 is basically money in the bank for a marquee player. The type of player the Oilers need with the utmost desperation.
  • Overall picking in the top 5 gives a 61% chance of a marquee player.
  • And an 83% chance of getting at least a quality NHL player.
  • Leaving a 17% chance of seeing that pick bust.
  • Don't pick 4th

In particular to keep in mind there seems to be a trend with the new rules of the NHL post lockout being more conducive to the younger players stepping in and being able to take on impact roles.

Just look at 2009 for which I've left the majority unknowns. That's 4 18 year olds who've all stepped into major roles with their respective teams and already had success.

Based on this I'd be willing to wager over the next few years we'll see that success rate go even higher and the bust percentage go down.

I would say that has to lend more credence than ever to the draft as the top path of player procurement.


People want to say it's a crapshoot.

If the house is giving me these odds, I'll bet the kids college tuition every day of the week.

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Old
11-24-2009, 04:43 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
It doesn't matter how they got there, they have had quite a few high draft picks over the yrs and are still a poor team, this season excepted. Management sucked, without question, Milbury being the poster boy. You mention Chara, Luongo, Jokinen and there were other deals too that hilited their mismanagement.

I know you call it rebuilding and not tanking but how do we rebuild as you see it without intentionally tanking? The players play, coaches coach and everybody is out there to win. So, without the Owner, President, GM not conspiring on a management level to gut the team, how do we begin the rebuilding process if really, everything is status quo?
In the last ten years, the Islanders have had three picks in the top five. Two of them were ten years ago when the picked Rick DiPietro first overall and Raffi Torres (fifth). Of course the third is Tavares this year. They can not be considered a proper tank job and this is partly the reason for their lack of success.

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Old
11-24-2009, 04:49 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by VincenzosOil View Post
I asked a similar question to another poster and I'll basically ask you the same.

Let me preface by saying I don't disagree with your rebuild over 5 yrs as you describe it but my question is how do you get to year 1 of the plan without a commitment from management to throw the season?

There are too many variables to consider this a sure method to success and would be almost impossible to achieve without some conscious effort to tank. And as a poster above stated, there is more than 1 way to succeed.

As to the bolded, ask yourself how other teams have become successful without resorting to tanking. If we can't become successful as so may other teams have without diving you have to ask why? And I'm pretty sure this question has been answered many times already with many differing, colorful solutions
As the discussion seems to be mostly going on in this thread I'll respond here, hope you see this.

To cut to the heart of the matter, yes, you're right, if you want to rebuild properly that's essentially a commitment from management that tanking is the gameplan.

In practical realistic terms though that would never, ever be the public strategy. Any team that's rebuilding (the spin begins already...no team ever tanks. They rebuild!) would spin doctor the hell out of things to put as positive a turn on it as possible. "building for the second dynasty" "come down and see the young guns" hype the bejesus out of your Tavares draft party etc and so on.

And certainly there's an infinite amount of paths to success. Personally I think Philly has the absolute ideal model right now. One season in the gutter gets them a #2 pick, the following season their 2003 draft picks come out of nowhere to Cannon blast the general hell out of stuff, and then of course they make concurrent moves of major trades and big FA signings to turn that team into a long term contender in a hurry.

A few major problems with duplication though. Edmonton isn't Philly, and that ideal is damn hard to live up to. Both those teams put in calls to Briere. One got a callback, one got a prompt thanks, but no thanks. Then 2 massive draft home runs outside the top ten picks. God, I wish.

Going the rebuild route isn't pretty, but based on all the intangibles surrounding the contemporary Edmonton market I think it's logically the highest chance of success. You purge yourself of all the garbage and negativity that's been plaguing the team and you build that winning culture and talent from the ground up.

The most unfortunate part of our current state of affairs is we're dramatically two years late to the party. Really, after the Pronger debacle pointed us in the direction that saw Smitty out the door for picks and prospects, and in turn landing a 6th overall pick that year, it should have been the giant red flag waving to enter a rebuild.

Then perhaps even more fortuitous a circumstance arises and you've got this past offseason with a new owner and GM who could have given an impartial assessment of the state of the team, and likely rallied the greatest possible public support for a purge of the organization and a new, fresh direction.

And that's culminated in us generally missing out on two extremely strong draft years.

It's very well possible the exigent moment has passed us by.

Now, it's certainly not impossible that Tambo can start pulling off a series of minor miracles to get this ship headed in the right direction, but what're the odds? And after having a new GM and owner come in and essentially just tow the party line that Lowe has been selling all these years, about a team that can compete and succeed in the league, how much more put off are they going to be to the idea of a rebuild?

And at this point I'll flip the question back around to you or any others. Given the current state of this organization, top to bottom, with specific emphasis on the depth chart, how on earth do we turn it into a success (read: Stanley Cup Champion or at least perennial contender) if not by way of rebuild?

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Old
11-24-2009, 07:07 PM
  #111
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tank for 4-5 seasons and we're guaranteed to get a star 1st rounder at least once and some good supporting players you can build something around..

or we can finish 9-13 and get middle of the pack picks that will ensure we remain stuck in this rut for another 20 years..
Even then we are not guaranteed anything. I'd say the chances are better, but count of tanking for 5 years plus to rebuild a solid core. One good player is not going to get us anywhere.

And with that we are pretty much guaranteed to lose Penner Souray Visnovsky and probably Hemsky as well along with any other talented players who have market value. We may gain some good picks that may pan out to be stars but jettisoning out pride and integrity in order to get there will cost us a lot more than a few seasons standings. We will be starting from ground zero with practically no talent. What we have now will not want to stay here, and you thought it was hard to sign UFA's before ....

When you blow up the team we will lose everything in the process. Are the people backing this really prepared to go though that? I highly doubt it since many of them are chronic complainers and will belly-ache just the same if not more.

Is one third of a season long enough wait to evaluate what Quinn and team can brew out of our current ingredients? Given the fact that we are bucking for another record breaking for players lost to injury etc, I think it's very premature. We were doing pretty good when we had a healthy lineup, and now that we are getting some of our key guys back we are starting to win again.

Boy this forums are a haven for the bi-polar society meetings.

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11-24-2009, 07:39 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by JohnAlexander View Post
Key Points
  • Picking at 1 or 2 is basically money in the bank for a marquee player. The type of player the Oilers need with the utmost desperation.
  • Overall picking in the top 5 gives a 61% chance of a marquee player.
  • And an 83% chance of getting at least a quality NHL player.
  • Leaving a 17% chance of seeing that pick bust.
I think youre a little generous with your Epic Successes.

I'd put the ES for 2000 beside Heatley and Gaborik, but they both get asterix's due to attitude or injury problems.

I'd put the ES next to Kovy for 2001, as I dont think Spezza is someone to build around (on pace for 56 points this year to follow up 73 last year).

I'd put ES for Nash for 2002. I havent seen enough of Bouwmeester in previous year to have an opinion and what I've seen with the Flames this year is good but not epic.

I'd remove Vanek from 2003. He's hit 84 points once and never got above 64 besides that. He's on pace for 60 this year.

I agree with 2004. I'd remove Price for 2005. 2006-2009 are tough to gauge, but Tavares and Stamkos really stand out. J. Stall doesnt look like a stud to me. Price looks good but not franchise material. Hedman, Doughty, Bogosian all look good but its still early. Backstrom and Kessel are suspect as well, as Backstrom is playing with the best player in the NHL and Kessel is playing on the worst team in the NHL. Bobby Ryan is on pace (60 points) for a worse season than last year.

And looking at the Blackhawks, their strength is their depth. Hemsky and Penner are scoring as good or better than anyone on their roster. Would Kane or Toews be good enough to carry a bad team all by themselves? They are obviously playing great as a team, but an Epic Success player worthy of tanking should be a Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Nash, Kovy style player.

I do agree that picking #1 or #2 will net you a great player and having #1 will likely grab you a franchise player. And I do think busts are less likely now than before, since the scouting and development programs are so refined. But tanking isnt guaranteed to turn a franchise around. The Oilers last built a contending team in 2006 through smart trades instead of tanking.

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11-24-2009, 08:07 PM
  #113
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Even then we are not guaranteed anything. I'd say the chances are better, but count of tanking for 5 years plus to rebuild a solid core. One good player is not going to get us anywhere.
You're also not guaranteed to be able to get in your car and still be alive at the end of the day. Take a gander at the relative percentages I posted above. Most people look at the chances and still go ahead driving.

5 years at this point is also not necessary imo. This team has been re-building for most intents and purposes over the last 3 years. Getting lucky with Paajarvi last year only helped that end. 3 blue chippers in him, Gagner, and Eberle + a John McFarland and a Taylor Hall along with all the other assets acquired and developed more consciously during a rebuild and that team is basically ready to roll. That's two years, then a third to get some steam and icetime under everyone and pick up some key components in the FA market or via trade and you've got a serious contender in 2012, likely for years and years to come.

Quote:
And with that we are pretty much guaranteed to lose Penner Souray Visnovsky and probably Hemsky as well along with any other talented players who have market value. We may gain some good picks that may pan out to be stars but jettisoning out pride and integrity in order to get there will cost us a lot more than a few seasons standings. We will be starting from ground zero with practically no talent. What we have now will not want to stay here, and you thought it was hard to sign UFA's before ....

When you blow up the team we will lose everything in the process. Are the people backing this really prepared to go though that? I highly doubt it since many of them are chronic complainers and will belly-ache just the same if not more.
What pride and integrity loss? When he took over the reigns of the team in Toronto, Burke's mo as often reinforced by Ron Wilson was assumedly to rebuild that team out of the quagmire of poor management that created it. To my recollection essentially all media types recognized this as well and saw nothing wrong with it.

If management decides it wants to build a successful team through the draft what on earth is dishonorable about that?

We won't be able to attract FAs? As you allude to we can't attract them now.

We lose pride and integrity? Moreso than having a cap team consistently get dominated and miss the playoffs? For the bulk of the Colorado game last week that building was more like the Mausoleum than the Coliseum. As I struggled vainly to get Oiler chants going along with a very few others, prideful was not my impression of the current fanbase.

And how exactly do we lose everything? Rebuilding is a specific strategic direction for a team to take and involves a different outlook for managing and protecting assets, not the destruction of them. You identify a core nucleus of veterans to center your re-build around, then identify your core nucleus of youth/prospects and actively seek to translate all other assets into others which best fit the structure and timetable of the rebuild. You think everyone and everything not nailed down is going to try and abandon ship? Shane Doan and Ed Jovanovski say otherwise.

And even if they do, you trade them for high quality futures.

Quote:
Is one third of a season long enough wait to evaluate what Quinn and team can brew out of our current ingredients? Given the fact that we are bucking for another record breaking for players lost to injury etc, I think it's very premature. We were doing pretty good when we had a healthy lineup, and now that we are getting some of our key guys back we are starting to win again.

Boy this forums are a haven for the bi-polar society meetings.
A lot of unfair stereotyping going on here.

The call for a rebuild has been around for longer than 24 games of this season. Rather than premature I'd suggest based on some of the talent we've missed out on in the past two years in favor of floundering out of the playoffs, this is something long overdue.

And when the team nosedives through the quarter pole of the season, injuries or otherwise, on the heels of years of similar ineptitude, the most reasonable result would be the questioning of the status quo.

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11-24-2009, 08:17 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
I think youre a little generous with your Epic Successes.

I'd put the ES for 2000 beside Heatley and Gaborik, but they both get asterix's due to attitude or injury problems.

I'd put the ES next to Kovy for 2001, as I dont think Spezza is someone to build around (on pace for 56 points this year to follow up 73 last year).

I'd put ES for Nash for 2002. I havent seen enough of Bouwmeester in previous year to have an opinion and what I've seen with the Flames this year is good but not epic.

I'd remove Vanek from 2003. He's hit 84 points once and never got above 64 besides that. He's on pace for 60 this year.

I agree with 2004. I'd remove Price for 2005. 2006-2009 are tough to gauge, but Tavares and Stamkos really stand out. J. Stall doesnt look like a stud to me. Price looks good but not franchise material. Hedman, Doughty, Bogosian all look good but its still early. Backstrom and Kessel are suspect as well, as Backstrom is playing with the best player in the NHL and Kessel is playing on the worst team in the NHL. Bobby Ryan is on pace (60 points) for a worse season than last year.

And looking at the Blackhawks, their strength is their depth. Hemsky and Penner are scoring as good or better than anyone on their roster. Would Kane or Toews be good enough to carry a bad team all by themselves? They are obviously playing great as a team, but an Epic Success player worthy of tanking should be a Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Nash, Kovy style player.

I do agree that picking #1 or #2 will net you a great player and having #1 will likely grab you a franchise player. And I do think busts are less likely now than before, since the scouting and development programs are so refined. But tanking isnt guaranteed to turn a franchise around. The Oilers last built a contending team in 2006 through smart trades instead of tanking.
Well a lot of people are going to differ on individual player points but for me the criteria was allstar player. In my mind if you can pick up and all star through the draft it's an epic success. Further I'd venture all the players I listed as ES are players that are part of the theoretical solution in building a championship team rather than the problem. Sure, when they're on teams with questionable overall talent like Spezza in OTT or Vanek in BUF they may look less desirable, but put them on a decent team and they're monsters. Both of those guys have helped their teams to deep playoff appearances.

Bouw has been the hands down top dman in CGY and I'd be shocked if he wasn't first off that defense for Team Canada.

I'll put it to you this way, is Chicago able to sign Hossa without Kane and Toews? If you take Kane and Toews off that team how far does their depth carry them? Which part is easier to replace, the superstars or the depth?

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11-24-2009, 08:42 PM
  #115
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The Oilers last built a contending team in 2006 through smart trades instead of tanking.
We barely snuck into the playoffs as the last seed. A contending team that was not. What a contending team is as far as I see it is a team that is a lock to make the playoffs and is considered in the mix when talking about winning it all.

Pittsburgh and Washington are contending teams that followed the formula that I am talking about. Short term pain for long term gain. Both teams jettisoned any veterans with big contracts and picked in the top five. Granted there isnt an Ovechkin or Crosby in every draft, but I would be happy with a Tavares or a Kane too.

Something that the anti-tank people never seem to address is what do we do if we do not do a total rebuild. I have reiterated that trades are not really an option as most elite players have ntc's which would most likely be activated if they were destined for E-town.

Elite ufa's will pick a big American city over us leaving that as a questionable and oft failed option. So what exactly would be our recipe for success? Obtaining role players that are attainable is not going to make us a contender imo.

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11-24-2009, 08:44 PM
  #116
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Lowe would probably have drafted Turris lol.
Absolutely, they tried to trade up to get him.

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11-24-2009, 09:39 PM
  #117
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There is no way we are worse off in the long run adding Hall, Seguin, or Kabanov to our team. The easiest way to acquire a high caliber player is through the draft.
Sadly for edmonton, it seems to be the ONLY way.

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11-24-2009, 10:33 PM
  #118
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I tried to reply to both of you but my computer crashed and I lost it all and I'm not going to type it all out again right now so I'll try again tomorrow or something **** I hate this computer

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11-24-2009, 10:51 PM
  #119
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Tell that to Chicago and Pittsburgh.

Lose in OT to the Flames in '07 and we have Patrick Kane. Sure glad we found the cojones to win that last game.

Too early to talk about tanking but I'm hoping for either an A or an F on this season. These guys better not bring home any Cs this season.

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11-25-2009, 12:52 AM
  #120
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Lose in OT to the Flames in '07 and we have Patrick Kane.
Stop saying that. The Oilers weren't going to draft Kane. The team was in love with Kyle Turris, so we would have blown it anyways.

As far as I'm concerned, Sam Gagner >> Kyle Turris.

I'm much more of a reader than a posterr, but seriously, a lot of people need to stop assuming that everything would have been perfect had one detail changed.

It's like saying "jeez, well I wish I had invested $1000 in IBM years ago" but then you spent that grand on a car which allowed you to ask out some girl who you ended up marrying and had your kids etc etc.

Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction.

Next thing you know, someone's going to say "if we hadn't of traded Smyth, everything would be fine."

Oh wait, everyone does that already.

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11-25-2009, 01:13 AM
  #121
Narnia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemc89 View Post
Stop saying that. The Oilers weren't going to draft Kane. The team was in love with Kyle Turris, so we would have blown it anyways.

As far as I'm concerned, Sam Gagner >> Kyle Turris.

I'm much more of a reader than a posterr, but seriously, a lot of people need to stop assuming that everything would have been perfect had one detail changed.

It's like saying "jeez, well I wish I had invested $1000 in IBM years ago" but then you spent that grand on a car which allowed you to ask out some girl who you ended up marrying and had your kids etc etc.

Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction.

Next thing you know, someone's going to say "if we hadn't of traded Smyth, everything would be fine."

Oh wait, everyone does that already.
The Oilers would have drafted Kane if they had drafted first overall.

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11-25-2009, 04:43 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
The Oilers would have drafted Kane if they had drafted first overall.
or maybe they trade it for a really good proven player :shrug: we'll never know

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11-25-2009, 12:26 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
The Oilers would have drafted Kane if they had drafted first overall.
I really don't think they would have. It was pretty well known at the time that the Oilers were VERY high on Kyle Turris, and that wasn't a draft that was clear cut who the number one pick would be.

This article is one of only a small number that I can find that talks about Lowe's love of Turris, but it doesn't exactly prove my point. But if you were all eyes and ears around that time, you would have gotten the strong hint that Turris was at the top of the Oilers draft list.

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11-25-2009, 12:50 PM
  #124
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The Oilers wouldn't have gotten the no.1 pick even if they lost to Calgary. I forgot what the break down was, but I remember going over it a few times back then.

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11-25-2009, 12:50 PM
  #125
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And certainly there's an infinite amount of paths to success. Personally I think Philly has the absolute ideal model right now. One season in the gutter gets them a #2 pick, the following season their 2003 draft picks come out of nowhere to Cannon blast the general hell out of stuff, and then of course they make concurrent moves of major trades and big FA signings to turn that team into a long term contender in a hurry.

A few major problems with duplication though. Edmonton isn't Philly, and that ideal is damn hard to live up to. Both those teams put in calls to Briere. One got a callback, one got a prompt thanks, but no thanks. Then 2 massive draft home runs outside the top ten picks. God, I wish.

Going the rebuild route isn't pretty, but based on all the intangibles surrounding the contemporary Edmonton market I think it's logically the highest chance of success. You purge yourself of all the garbage and negativity that's been plaguing the team and you build that winning culture and talent from the ground up.


And that's culminated in us generally missing out on two extremely strong draft years.

It's very well possible the exigent moment has passed us by.


And at this point I'll flip the question back around to you or any others. Given the current state of this organization, top to bottom, with specific emphasis on the depth chart, how on earth do we turn it into a success (read: Stanley Cup Champion or at least perennial contender) if not by way of rebuild?
I'll make this brief as I'm heading into Edm. to watch tonites game with my son

First, your post is as well a thought out and reasoned argument as I have read on this board.

I am just going to comment on a couple of points that you bring up for now.

Philly, I agree, would be a team to copy. They hit the jackpot with Richards and Carter. Good scouting or horses**t luck? Probably a bit of both. UFA 's that want to play in Philly certainly lends an aura of a sound management philosophy.

Interesting how they sent assets to Nashville for exclusive negotiating rights to UFA's Timonen and Hartnell (or was it Upshall?). Smart, bold and progressive thinking on their part.

I disagree with the importance you seem to give that #2 pick, how you correlate that pick with Philly's resurgence the following year and as a weak validation of the tanking model you advocate (sorry, rebuild). That pick had nothing to do with Philly's comeback. They had the pieces in place already and I am inclined to believe that their miserable season was an anomaly of sorts, a reverse fluke if you will. The only way I see that pick supporting your rebuild model is the sustainment of a perennial contender but I still believe they will be for many years to come, with or without that pick.

I do not want the Oiler organization to tank. Unpredictable to reach the hallowed 1 or 2 pick. The odds for success via rebuild are better than other methods, as you suggest. But there are other methods and options to turn us into a yearly contender, which you recognize and argue against. It is not an exact science and I am not implying you think otherwise. But it can be done without resorting to questionable methods and still provide the fans with a competitive, if not playoff calibre, team.

As I stated previously, keep our organizational head up, play the team hard, teach them to compete (hello Quinn), trade to fill holes, continue the attempt to land the big fish and let the chips fall where they fall come draft time. Oh yeah, fire the scouting staff... j/k

Edit: Geez, I forgot to comment on the bolded part which I think is the crucial part to any rebuild, that is recognizing the exigent moment and making the decisive commitment to tank. Not done without courage of conviction.

Boy, this wasn't as brief a response as I had wanted....


Last edited by VincenzosOil: 11-25-2009 at 01:00 PM.
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