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Old
11-25-2009, 11:15 AM
  #51
jacK
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Originally Posted by ProPAIN View Post
Btw, is there a thread where we can talk about the Red Wings roster for next year? not a thread like "I Demand Change" kind of thread, but to discuss the possibilities of which players we could bring in and which can go? If it doesn't exist, would it be ok to start one? or will i get thrashed by the forum? let me know, cause i want to discuss this with you guys.

yesterday, out of frustration i started looking at the rosters here:

NHL Numbers

and there are some pretty decent players available at the end of the year. I want to see what the forum thinks of the players we list and so on.
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
We have jacK's cap tracker thread in the sticky section: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=651132


People do seem to throw ideas out for UFA's in there, but I suppose there's no problem with a Target UFA List type of thread. Just not sure if you'll get a ton of responses this early. Once everyone feels the noose getting tighter (maybe after the trade deadline), you'll have ALL kinds of suggestions on blowing it up, who to keep, fire, sign, and so on..... My two cents.
i've been crunching numbers and hypothesizing our 2010-11 roster already... just not enough time to throw it into post/thread form.
FF & i were planning a joint cap/free agency thread earlier this year... maybe we'll get that around.

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11-25-2009, 12:01 PM
  #52
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Just heard on the Fan 590 from Ken Daniels that the Wings and Lidstrom are looking for a 2 year extension.

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11-25-2009, 12:07 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Should have bought him out in '05 when we had the chance, right dj?
We all know how poorly Lidstrom played following the lockout, and that came after a substandard 03-04 season. Are you insinuating that, nearly 5 years later, this is again just a slow start? I'm finding that much more difficult to buy this time around. Lidstrom is now nearly 40, and consecutive trips to the Finals aren't exactly a good analog to a year long sabbatical. The "give him time, he'll turn things around" position is far weaker this time around.

Besides, the talk back then was more centered on what to do following the 2005-06 season. Lidstrom was set to be a UFA, and was pulling down what was then the maximum salary. For the first couple months of the season he didn't play well enough to deserve being offered a similar deal that summer... and you know it!

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
^^^^

Honestly, that is more than likely what will happen. He's being paid $7+ MM now because he signed a 2 yr deal after the Cup win 2 yrs ago. He deserved more than that the year following the Cup + Norris year, and he may not deserve that much this year, although I'm not ready to say he's THAT much worse.... It evens out over the two years, imo.

I guess I don't get what the complaint is.... contracts cannot be renegotiated, and if there are some overpayments in the system right now, Nick is hardly the guy who hasn't earned some overpayment. (Ergo, he's not the problem.)
I don't disagree with any of this. I think that if Lidstrom is overcompensated this season, which looks to be the case, that's OK. He's earned the money. But I have a problem with the position that Lidstrom's past contributions entitle him to another contract this summer that would again overcompensate him. If Zetterberg and Datsyuk have become the best players on the team, which IMO is the case and has been for a little while now, then they should be the highest paid.

Unless the wheels fall off, I'm on board with bringing Lidstrom back in the $4-5M salary range. We're not going to do better than that anyway considering the other options. However, I'd like to see a one year term this time.

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11-25-2009, 12:17 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
We all know how poorly Lidstrom played following the lockout, and that came after a substandard 03-04 season. Are you insinuating that, nearly 5 years later, this is again just a slow start? I'm finding that much more difficult to buy this time around. Lidstrom is now nearly 40, and consecutive trips to the Finals aren't exactly a good analog to a year long sabbatical. The "give him time, he'll turn things around" position is far weaker this time around.

Besides, the talk back then was more centered on what to do following the 2005-06 season. Lidstrom was set to be a UFA, and was pulling down what was then the maximum salary. For the first couple months of the season he didn't play well enough to deserve being offered a similar deal that summer... and you know it!



I don't disagree with any of this. I think that if Lidstrom is overcompensated this season, which looks to be the case, that's OK. He's earned the money. But I have a problem with the position that Lidstrom's past contributions entitle him to another contract this summer that would again overcompensate him. If Zetterberg and Datsyuk have become the best players on the team, which IMO is the case and has been for a little while now, then they should be the highest paid.

Unless the wheels fall off, I'm on board with bringing Lidstrom back in the $4-5M salary range. We're not going to do better than that anyway considering the other options. However, I'd like to see a one year term this time.
An above average Lidstrom is still most nights the best player on the ice. I'd bet there is 29 other teams would take him today and make cuts to do so. Come this guy is still ELITE.

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11-25-2009, 12:29 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
^^^^

Honestly, that is more than likely what will happen. He's being paid $7+ MM now because he signed a 2 yr deal after the Cup win 2 yrs ago. He deserved more than that the year following the Cup + Norris year, and he may not deserve that much this year, although I'm not ready to say he's THAT much worse.... It evens out over the two years, imo.

I guess I don't get what the complaint is.... contracts cannot be renegotiated, and if there are some overpayments in the system right now, Nick is hardly the guy who hasn't earned some overpayment. (Ergo, he's not the problem.)
Why does it seem like Nick has his worst years when his contract is up? He had that horrible Edmonton series then we all argued over whether he was done or not, and then they threw a ton of money at him and he ended up being worth it.

I wouldn't count on that last part playing out again, though. They need to shave at least 3 mil off his salary so they can patch holes elsewhere, to say nothing about his play not meriting that much anymore anyway.

Maybe he'll light it up in the 2nd half and the playoffs though. We'll see. This is why Holland doesn't do these extensions until June.

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11-25-2009, 02:30 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
^^^^

Honestly, that is more than likely what will happen. He's being paid $7+ MM now because he signed a 2 yr deal after the Cup win 2 yrs ago. He deserved more than that the year following the Cup + Norris year, and he may not deserve that much this year, although I'm not ready to say he's THAT much worse.... It evens out over the two years, imo.

I guess I don't get what the complaint is.... contracts cannot be renegotiated, and if there are some overpayments in the system right now, Nick is hardly the guy who hasn't earned some overpayment. (Ergo, he's not the problem.)
I wasn't really talking about his current contract; I'm talking about his next possible contract (summer 2010).

His current deal was signed right after a Cup win and Norris win, so the 7.5 or whatever it is exactly was right in line with his status as a player at that time. Fast forward a year and half later, and, in my opinion, he's not worth that lofty status anymore. I'm not saying he's completely fallen apart, but the point is that he's not a 7 million dollar player anymore. That being the case, he should not be payed that much when his next contract comes up this summer, especially for the only reason being his past contributions.

As I said in my previous post, Lidstrom is still a world-class NHL defenseman, and is obviously one of the Wings top guys. That being said, however, he's still not a 7 million dollar player anymore. He's much more in line with the 4-5 million range, especially given his age current age (I don't think there's ever been a 40 year old in NHL history that's made in excess of 6-7 million a season).

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11-25-2009, 03:09 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Looked also at UFA list. Nothing good in 2010. Well... I would not re-sign Nick, if we get Kovalchuk, but this ain't happening.

Amongst goalies Hiller looks good, but I have a feeling that he is staying in Disneyland.

So it's better to wait until 2011. Then we can go after Kaberle, or maybe even Markov (Habs will try to lock him up).
Bryzgalov, Smith and several other good goalies are also available. I could live with Bryzgalov at 5+ millions instead of Nick.
I beg to differ, thanks very much. lol. For 2010, here are the Free agents for each position listed with cap hit and all. Happy shopping Red Wings!

Free Agent Centers

Free Agent Left Wingers

Free Agent Right Wingers

Free Agent Defensemen

Free Agent Goaltenders

There are some pretty nice, realistic picks that we can have, so I don't think the Red Wings will want to miss out on that. Don't you think? I'll be more than glad to list the ones I believe are good, realistic picks for next year, if you want.

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Old
11-25-2009, 03:50 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Just heard on the Fan 590 from Ken Daniels that the Wings and Lidstrom are looking for a 2 year extension.
If it's two years, I hope it's cheap. He's been blessed with good health and good production for his career but he is getting older and his body has to be more of a question mark. Outside of what he "deserves" (while I would like him to take less, I also find it hard to argue that he doesn't deserve exactly what he's making and will deserve whatever he's paid in a next contract), I just wouldn't like a high dollar/2 yr deal for a guy over 35.

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11-25-2009, 05:01 PM
  #59
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Eh, so people really think he has been that bad this year?

Granted I have not watched that many Wings games this season but he has looked pretty good in most of the games I've seen at least. Maybe not Lidstrom in his prime good, but pretty good, on the other hand has the Wings as a team looked really bad at times...

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11-25-2009, 06:32 PM
  #60
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Eh, so people really think he has been that bad this year?

Granted I have not watched that many Wings games this season but he has looked pretty good in most of the games I've seen at least. Maybe not Lidstrom in his prime good, but pretty good, on the other hand has the Wings as a team looked really bad at times...
There's a world of difference between "being bad" and "being bad for Nick Lidstrom."


That said, I don't like the idea of tying up Lidstrom for TWO years when hes been in the decline for two years running. Granted, he had a long way to fall, but the purpose of the 2 year deal better be to allow for a small cap hit.

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11-25-2009, 06:35 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SvobodaMT View Post
I wasn't really talking about his current contract; I'm talking about his next possible contract (summer 2010).

His current deal was signed right after a Cup win and Norris win, so the 7.5 or whatever it is exactly was right in line with his status as a player at that time. Fast forward a year and half later, and, in my opinion, he's not worth that lofty status anymore. I'm not saying he's completely fallen apart, but the point is that he's not a 7 million dollar player anymore. That being the case, he should not be payed that much when his next contract comes up this summer, especially for the only reason being his past contributions.

As I said in my previous post, Lidstrom is still a world-class NHL defenseman, and is obviously one of the Wings top guys. That being said, however, he's still not a 7 million dollar player anymore. He's much more in line with the 4-5 million range, especially given his age current age (I don't think there's ever been a 40 year old in NHL history that's made in excess of 6-7 million a season).
This is what I'd like to see him paid. Preferably, nothing more than 4.85, simply because we have to shore up our weaknesses in the off-season, and we can't do that with a 40 year old taking up a big chunk of the space.

And if its a two-year deal, it better damn well be 4M or less. Maybe 5M, then 3M.

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11-25-2009, 06:38 PM
  #62
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i've been crunching numbers and hypothesizing our 2010-11 roster already... just not enough time to throw it into post/thread form.
FF & i were planning a joint cap/free agency thread earlier this year... maybe we'll get that around.
I would really be interested in having some input if you do make a thread or a post about your ideas for next year. I have a few and I want to know Red Wings fans' opinions. I think a new thread about the trade deadline AND free agents should be made.

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11-25-2009, 08:33 PM
  #63
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Maybe he's not completly healthy. Maybe he's slowed up by the wear and tear of all the seasons but hasn't come to grips with it. Maybe you guys should get off his back and give the benefit of the doubt to him for all the good things he's done. For God's sake's Stevie Y was much more ineffective his last few years than Nick has been so far.

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11-25-2009, 11:56 PM
  #64
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Maybe he's not completly healthy. Maybe he's slowed up by the wear and tear of all the seasons but hasn't come to grips with it. Maybe you guys should get off his back and give the benefit of the doubt to him for all the good things he's done. For God's sake's Stevie Y was much more ineffective his last few years than Nick has been so far.
Good luck getting that to happen.

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11-26-2009, 07:25 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by belgarath View Post
Eh, so people really think he has been that bad this year?

Granted I have not watched that many Wings games this season but he has looked pretty good in most of the games I've seen at least. Maybe not Lidstrom in his prime good, but pretty good, on the other hand has the Wings as a team looked really bad at times...
He is still pretty amazing.

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11-26-2009, 10:02 AM
  #66
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He is still pretty amazing.
For real?

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11-26-2009, 11:44 AM
  #67
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Quit treating Lidstrom like a Detroit quarterback.

Other than that is my only other opinion is we should have kept Kyle Quincey. lol

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11-26-2009, 12:31 PM
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I beg to differ, thanks very much. lol. For 2010, here are the Free agents for each position listed with cap hit and all. Happy shopping Red Wings!

Free Agent Centers

Free Agent Left Wingers

Free Agent Right Wingers

Free Agent Defensemen

Free Agent Goaltenders

There are some pretty nice, realistic picks that we can have, so I don't think the Red Wings will want to miss out on that. Don't you think? I'll be more than glad to list the ones I believe are good, realistic picks for next year, if you want.
We need an elite player to replace Nick. Defenseman, or goalie.

How many elite dmen you can see next year? Pronger is re-signed already, Gonchar will stay with the Pens. Kubina? I would take Paul Martin, but NJ will do everything to get him back next year.

Goalies. Toskala? Nabby? Turco? Ellis? Hiller? None of them are truly elite. Well... maybe Nabby is, but Osgood have proven in playoffs a lot more, than him. So is this really an upgrade?

Okay. Forwards. We can't afford 6-7 million long-term deal, because there will be a huge hole in defense. I would take only Kovalchuk long-term for big money and try to work something out. We don't need Savard, Marleau, Jokinen, etc. We will get somebody instead of Williams, Bertuzzi for similar money. That's it. I would not mind Kozlov for a reasonable price.

2011 UFA looks a lot better. http://www.capgeek.com/contracts.php...n=APPLY+FILTER

More money available. Draper, Osgood will take less, or retire.

Again... Kaberle is the most realistic, because I really doubt he stays in Toronto. He would be a very solid top2 dman.

Goalies: Vokoun, Smith, Bryzgalov are all very good instead of Osgood. Maybe Larsson, or even McCollum will be ready. Both are very talented goalies.

Forwards: Gagne, B. Richards, or whatever. Hard to tell what we will need in 2011. A lot will depend on Fil and his progress. Emmerton, Axelsson, Ritola and Tatar should/could play in Detroit already. There is Hudler. Maybe our young players will progress greatly and we won't need any forwards at all.

The point is that we just can't throw big and long-term money on non-totally-elite FA in summer 2010. If we are giving somebody big money, then he better be one of the best in the league. Like Kovalchuk.

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11-26-2009, 12:33 PM
  #69
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Quit treating Lidstrom like a Detroit quarterback.

Other than that is my only other opinion is we should have kept Kyle Quincey. lol

Don't get me started. They just manage to muzzle me for a week or two, and then somehow it comes up again....

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11-26-2009, 12:33 PM
  #70
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Maybe he's not completly healthy. Maybe he's slowed up by the wear and tear of all the seasons but hasn't come to grips with it. Maybe you guys should get off his back and give the benefit of the doubt to him for all the good things he's done. For God's sake's Stevie Y was much more ineffective his last few years than Nick has been so far.
And people openly discussed Yzerman's decline.

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11-26-2009, 01:11 PM
  #71
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One year, $4.5M
Or two years, $7M

Those are the numbers I am looking for.

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11-26-2009, 08:09 PM
  #72
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One year, $4.5M
Or two years, $7M

Those are the numbers I am looking for.
Well, if he does that.... Pens fans everywhere would like Holland to get it done soon enough for Shero to waive those numbers around Gonchar's nose, saying "See, see... how about you do like Nick and sign for two years!?"

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11-26-2009, 08:27 PM
  #73
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We need an elite player to replace Nick. Defenseman, or goalie.

How many elite dmen you can see next year? Pronger is re-signed already, Gonchar will stay with the Pens. Kubina? I would take Paul Martin, but NJ will do everything to get him back next year.

Goalies. Toskala? Nabby? Turco? Ellis? Hiller? None of them are truly elite. Well... maybe Nabby is, but Osgood have proven in playoffs a lot more, than him. So is this really an upgrade?

Okay. Forwards. We can't afford 6-7 million long-term deal, because there will be a huge hole in defense. I would take only Kovalchuk long-term for big money and try to work something out. We don't need Savard, Marleau, Jokinen, etc. We will get somebody instead of Williams, Bertuzzi for similar money. That's it. I would not mind Kozlov for a reasonable price.

2011 UFA looks a lot better. http://www.capgeek.com/contracts.php...n=APPLY+FILTER

More money available. Draper, Osgood will take less, or retire.

Again... Kaberle is the most realistic, because I really doubt he stays in Toronto. He would be a very solid top2 dman.

Goalies: Vokoun, Smith, Bryzgalov are all very good instead of Osgood. Maybe Larsson, or even McCollum will be ready. Both are very talented goalies.

Forwards: Gagne, B. Richards, or whatever. Hard to tell what we will need in 2011. A lot will depend on Fil and his progress. Emmerton, Axelsson, Ritola and Tatar should/could play in Detroit already. There is Hudler. Maybe our young players will progress greatly and we won't need any forwards at all.

The point is that we just can't throw big and long-term money on non-totally-elite FA in summer 2010. If we are giving somebody big money, then he better be one of the best in the league. Like Kovalchuk.
Niedermeyer is available next year (isn't he?), as I mentioned in another thread, he plays nearly the same role as Lidstrom and is pretty solid defensively. He will take less money than Lidstrom and he can help us in the transition to 2011 when there will be better defensemen available. If we get Niedermeyer and drop that god awful Lebda, we can get a defensive prospect like Volchenkov or maybe Hjalmarsson (or another Blackhawk since they need to get rid of a lot of players next year).

Rinne, Hiller, Turco, Ellis are all better goaltenders than Osgood. Hiller nearly single-handedly brought Anaheim to the Stanley Cup finals. He can perform on the big stage. We all know how Rinne has been, we had the pleasure of seeing him kick Red Wing's ass last time we played them. Pavelec, Rask are RFA's but I'm sure they will be interested.

There are some 'decent' right wingers which would be a good addition to the Wings roster.

Kovalchuk, Nash, not happening. We don't have the money for that. Forget it. But people like Bourque, Frolov have definitely improved this season and are better than the LW we have at the moment.

We maybe won't need centers but there are some pretty decent ones on that list. Realistic or not, is the Red Wings' problem.


Last edited by Fugu: 11-26-2009 at 08:28 PM. Reason: you can say ass
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11-26-2009, 08:29 PM
  #74
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Well, if he does that.... Pens fans everywhere would like Holland to get it done soon enough for Shero to waive those numbers around Gonchar's nose, saying "See, see... how about you do like Nick and sign for two years!?"
Gonchar will probably stay, but c'mon, if we can get Gonchar, that would definitely fill the void left by Lidstrom.

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11-26-2009, 10:33 PM
  #75
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Gonchar will probably stay, but c'mon, if we can get Gonchar, that would definitely fill the void left by Lidstrom.
Gonchar is Rafalski with a lefthanded shot.

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