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Old
11-26-2009, 11:02 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Gonchar is Rafalski with a lefthanded shot.
Gonchar is a better skater and he's bigger and better along the boards and in front of the net.

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11-26-2009, 11:04 PM
  #77
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Well, if he does that.... Pens fans everywhere would like Holland to get it done soon enough for Shero to waive those numbers around Gonchar's nose, saying "See, see... how about you do like Nick and sign for two years!?"
Yeah, well Lidstrom will be 42 years old at the end of a two year deal. And there are few players who've made more money in NHL history than Lidstrom has. I'd hope he wouldn't hold the team ransom.

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11-27-2009, 12:18 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by ProPAIN View Post
Niedermeyer is available next year (isn't he?), as I mentioned in another thread, he plays nearly the same role as Lidstrom and is pretty solid defensively. He will take less money than Lidstrom and he can help us in the transition to 2011 when there will be better defensemen available. If we get Niedermeyer and drop that god awful Lebda, we can get a defensive prospect like Volchenkov or maybe Hjalmarsson (or another Blackhawk since they need to get rid of a lot of players next year).

Rinne, Hiller, Turco, Ellis are all better goaltenders than Osgood. Hiller nearly single-handedly brought Anaheim to the Stanley Cup finals. He can perform on the big stage. We all know how Rinne has been, we had the pleasure of seeing him kick Red Wing's ass last time we played them. Pavelec, Rask are RFA's but I'm sure they will be interested.

There are some 'decent' right wingers which would be a good addition to the Wings roster.

Kovalchuk, Nash, not happening. We don't have the money for that. Forget it. But people like Bourque, Frolov have definitely improved this season and are better than the LW we have at the moment.

We maybe won't need centers but there are some pretty decent ones on that list. Realistic or not, is the Red Wings' problem.
Do you really believe that Niedermayer will come to Detroit? Nieds will: A) retire B) stay with the Ducks C) sign with the Devils. Chances are very slim that he will sign with us (we are rivals with the Ducks, remember?).

Hjalmarsson will not be allowed to leave. Same with Volchenkov. Plus, they will not replace Lidstrom.

Yes, Hiller is nice. What are chances he will not be re-signed by the Ducks? Same with Rinne. Turco? I would take Osgood easily over him. Turco is not elite anymore. He is not the same player after we beat them in the playoffs.

Nash is re-signed long time ago. Kovalchuk is a wet dream indeed. Frolov? No thanks. He will disappear in the playoffs. Count on it. He has disappeared at the Worlds, and Olympics. Despite playing with elite talent. And he won't be cheap.

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11-27-2009, 01:19 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Gonchar is a better skater and he's bigger and better along the boards and in front of the net.
The first is debatable. The rest still doesn't say much for Gonch.

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11-27-2009, 08:02 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
The first is debatable. The rest still doesn't say much for Gonch.
With respect, I often enjoy reading your posts and this is a Wings forum and all, but considering that Rafalski (who I have always rated prior to this season) has played horrible hockey for a while now, it is somewhat silly that you equate him with Gonchar who has been epic for us for the past three years and who is just a better player.

Except for the playoffs last season post-Ovechkin knee, he is always Pens first choice out there against opponents best, he does a lot of penalty killing (and does so well) and without him our record is piss poor and there's no PP. Except for Crosby and Malkin he is our best and most indispensable player. Not asset, but player.

The no-defense Gonchar of the past has been history for three years (at least, we just sucked too hard before that), and his offense is up there as one of the best blueliners in the league.

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11-27-2009, 09:35 AM
  #81
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Speaking of Rafalski....

Would you rather have him at $6 MM or Nick at $7.4 MM? I don't even need to think about for a nanosecond.

Going forward, Nick at his reduced rate (because it will be less $$) will still be a better defenseman than Rafalski at $6 MM. At the time Holland signed him, that was a reasonable going rate for a defenseman of his caliber, where the cap was just going to keep climbing. Since the recession interrupted that little trend, I think his contract is starting to look like the biggest overpayment on the team, by at least a million per year. (That would have been enough of difference to keep Hossa, for example.)

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11-27-2009, 10:29 AM
  #82
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It doesn't need to say much, other than he's better than what you described, which is "Rafalski with a lefthand shot."
Gonchar will go down as one of the best defensemen of his era. Rafalski? Not so much.

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11-27-2009, 10:37 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Speaking of Rafalski....

Would you rather have him at $6 MM or Nick at $7.4 MM? I don't even need to think about for a nanosecond.

Going forward, Nick at his reduced rate (because it will be less $$) will still be a better defenseman than Rafalski at $6 MM. At the time Holland signed him, that was a reasonable going rate for a defenseman of his caliber, where the cap was just going to keep climbing. Since the recession interrupted that little trend, I think his contract is starting to look like the biggest overpayment on the team, by at least a million per year. (That would have been enough of difference to keep Hossa, for example.)
I was totally opposed to the Contract at the time. While I agreed he was an improvement over Schneider (defensively), and I acknowledge Rafalski helped us win a cup, I have never been comfortable with the salary/term and the No-Movement clause.

The scary thing is, so much of his game, offensively and defensively, about his skating, which has declined rapidly.

The problem is, Lids' game seems to have nosedived over the offseason.

The Lidstrom-Rafalski pairing has been atrocious in recent games.

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11-27-2009, 11:12 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I was totally opposed to the Contract at the time. While I agreed he was an improvement over Schneider (defensively), and I acknowledge Rafalski helped us win a cup, I have never been comfortable with the salary/term and the No-Movement clause.

The scary thing is, so much of his game, offensively and defensively, about his skating, which has declined rapidly.

The problem is, Lids' game seems to have nosedived over the offseason.

The Lidstrom-Rafalski pairing has been atrocious in recent games.
I understand why Holland was willing to take that risk. He felt he had a team that could win the Cup (and he was right). He didn't believe Schneider at $5+ MM for 2 yrs was the right move, and Rafalski was available. Factor in that the latter was younger, had the right hand shot, was from Michigan, and was available.... and the cap was growing, it was a good, but calculated risk. I also don't think anyone expected Franzen to take off like he did, and the goalie situation seemed stable for the foreseeable future. I too was a bit leery of the term, but didn't feel there were any better options. Holland was right since the team did go on to win, after adding Stuart to the brew as well. They almost won two years in a row, as we know.

Looking at the next two seasons however, that $6 MM/yr for Rafalski starts looking a bit excessive (unless the cap takes off again). In a sense, it's like the housing market at the peak of the bubble-- everyone's value was inflated and the Wings simply had to fill the hole that Schneider left (and you could say, a hole that Fisher's unexpected departure exacerbated).

Edit: Let's see however if Nick can ramp it up. He's had several slow starts, and maybe he cannot make up for ALL the problems the team is facing. It'd be hard for him to be having a Norris year when the rest of the team cannot seem to score.

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11-27-2009, 02:44 PM
  #85
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I would be surprised if Lidström asks for more than 3 million per year if he wants an extension.

I also think Lidström will pick his play up this season.

We´ll see how crazy I will look.

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12-02-2009, 10:48 PM
  #86
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So what's up with Lidstrom?

I come in peace.

I don't get to watch a lot of Detroit games, but I have Lidstrom in my hockey pool and he is doing absolutely horrible for me. I check his stats after each game and he eats up the ice time like nothing. He shoots plenty. There's no reason why he shouldn't be putting up decent numbers.

So what's up with him?

Do you guys think he's slacking a bit after getting over the 1000 point hump?

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12-03-2009, 07:19 AM
  #87
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Lidstrom has gotten athletically weaker in the last few years, it's not a sudden thing either. It's the normal process of aging and you can't hold it against anyone, it's nature taking its course. It might be reaching the point finally where his experience and reputation can't cover up the effects of that anymore - no doubt the very long seasons and very short off-seasons the last 2 years play a role here. In my view it was always that if Nick makes mental mistakes it's because he's dead tired. He's making a few of them these days.

That said if he returns next year we should pay him whatever he wants. I'd hope that he signs for as little as possible because it'd benefit the Wings but do I want the Wings to part with Nick Lidstrom on bad terms if they don't agree on terms? Absolutely not. Lidstrom deserves to ride off into the sunset in a Wings uniform. If he retired in anger or signed for another team it'd hurt the Wings franchise more than overpaying him for a year or two would.

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12-03-2009, 08:12 AM
  #88
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Funny, I think Lidstrom has been better this season than he was during the same period last season.

But the decrease in points....well, I can't explain it. He's always been a defensive defender who got his points with outlet passes and pp, and he's still doing that.

Weird.

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12-03-2009, 09:23 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Funny, I think Lidstrom has been better this season than he was during the same period last season.

But the decrease in points....well, I can't explain it. He's always been a defensive defender who got his points with outlet passes and pp, and he's still doing that.

Weird.
Nicks defensive abilities are as good as in the past. Here's why the points are down, and it's pretty simple the DRW overall are scoring less. Hossa, Hudler, Samualsson, Franzen out of the lineup may explain why Nicks scoring numbers are down?

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12-03-2009, 09:36 AM
  #90
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The D being patchwork and Nick having to worry more about defending both sides of the blueline might have something to do with his decrease in points also.

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12-03-2009, 11:17 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Funny, I think Lidstrom has been better this season than he was during the same period last season.

But the decrease in points....well, I can't explain it. He's always been a defensive defender who got his points with outlet passes and pp, and he's still doing that.

Weird.
Performance and stats are related but not the same. His performance is definitely not as good as last year and that is reflected on his stats. But, stats do not reflect performance (sometimes). He is playing 24-25 mins a game and has the shots but there is nearly nothing around him that can support him. I seriously believe that Lidstrom's performance is due the workload he given. He is ageing, yet they are asking more and more from him. Last year, the defensive lines performed MUCH better and that put less pressure on Lidstrom.

It's as simple as that, if Lidstrom was given the support he needed and was not relied on as much (especially now that Kronwall is injured), he would be performing at a higher level and as a consequence of that his stats would be better. You want Lidstrom's stats to go up, then get the OTHER guys to perform better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Nicks defensive abilities are as good as in the past. Here's why the points are down, and it's pretty simple the DRW overall are scoring less. Hossa, Hudler, Samualsson, Franzen out of the lineup may explain why Nicks scoring numbers are down?
Losing the scoring from all those players is absolutely a factor, but the Red Wings organization should have addressed that (as in, finding adequate replacements). They thought they did by getting Bertuzzi, J. Williams, Helm and Abdelkader, but what an epic fail that turned out. The Red Wings last year were such an offensive force that the defense would just "sit back" and roll in the assists. Even Rafalski was good last year. Why? Cause the offense was getting the points, the PP was better and the D had less pressure to deal with.

You'll see, as the Red Wings forwards improve, become more consistent and get the points, the less Lidstrom and the other D will "suck"

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12-04-2009, 10:13 AM
  #92
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I was totally opposed to the Contract at the time. While I agreed he was an improvement over Schneider (defensively), and I acknowledge Rafalski helped us win a cup, I have never been comfortable with the salary/term and the No-Movement clause.

The scary thing is, so much of his game, offensively and defensively, about his skating, which has declined rapidly.

The problem is, Lids' game seems to have nosedived over the offseason.

The Lidstrom-Rafalski pairing has been atrocious in recent games.
I think it's his back that caused the decline, and I'm concerned that it's a problem that won't go away. At the time of the contract, I was in favor of it. That's the price top pairing defensemen were going for, and Rafalksi was a huge upgrade over Schneider in virtually every way possible. His mobility, IMO, gave Nick more freedom, not to mention the lefty - righty PP situation.

However, now the deal is looking like it may have been worth it for a couple of seasons, and not so much for the rest of the duration. Rafalski was supposed to help us transition to the post-Lidstrom era, but now I'm not sure he'll even last as long as Nick will. And even if he does, how much of his game will be left? Probably not enough to justify that $6M cap hit, that's for sure.

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12-04-2009, 11:05 AM
  #93
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Rafalski's back is definitely a concern but, when he signed the deal, I'm not sure a chronic injury was something we had any reason to worry about. He'd missed more than ten games just once in his career, consistently hitting the mid-high 70s.

He only has two more seasons left. I think it's likely he plays them in relatively good health but there's no way I want to re-sign him to a significant deal after that. And, at that point, Kindl and E should be established vets and there won't be a need for Rafalski.

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12-04-2009, 11:30 AM
  #94
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Unless I'm mistaken, Rafalski has three more years left on his contract.

And I agree that there were no red flags when we signed him, and as I stated I was for the contract. The problem is that whole hindsight thingy.

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12-04-2009, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Unless I'm mistaken, Rafalski has three more years left on his contract.

And I agree that there were no red flags when we signed him, and as I stated I was for the contract. The problem is that whole hindsight thingy.
I thought so, too, but Capgeek has him down for just two more after this one. His contract is said to expire at the same time as Kronwall and Stuart's.

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12-04-2009, 12:24 PM
  #96
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Unless I'm mistaken, Rafalski has three more years left on his contract.

And I agree that there were no red flags when we signed him, and as I stated I was for the contract. The problem is that whole hindsight thingy.
If he's going to be injured the next 2 1/2 years, it's less of a problem because they can stick him on LTIR.

If he's going to be healthy and play badly, that's when the problem will arise.

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12-04-2009, 12:36 PM
  #97
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Sweet! That makes Rafalski much less of an issue IMO. We can deal with him for another couple of seasons beyond this one. Perhaps a long summer off, assuming we don't make the playoffs or are a first round casualty, will do his back some good.

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12-04-2009, 04:35 PM
  #98
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I question whether we really needed Rafalski at $6M for 5 years over Schneider at 2 for about 5.5 to help us win the cup. It was Kronwall's emergence + the addition of Stuart that really made the playoffs for us. Remember, Schneider rarely played with Rafalski at even strength, yet thats where Rafalski has played for much of his tenure, undoubtedly making him look better than he was.

I also question whether Rafalski was ever such a great all-around Dman to begin with. Offensive Dman? Of course. But he played alongside Niedermayer, Stevens, or Lidstrom for almost his entire NHL career, on the 2 best teams of this decade.

But hindsight is 20/20. I just hate that NTC of Raffi's.

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12-04-2009, 04:42 PM
  #99
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Performance and stats are related but not the same. His performance is definitely not as good as last year and that is reflected on his stats. But, stats do not reflect performance (sometimes). He is playing 24-25 mins a game and has the shots but there is nearly nothing around him that can support him. I seriously believe that Lidstrom's performance is due the workload he given. He is ageing, yet they are asking more and more from him. Last year, the defensive lines performed MUCH better and that put less pressure on Lidstrom.

It's as simple as that, if Lidstrom was given the support he needed and was not relied on as much (especially now that Kronwall is injured), he would be performing at a higher level and as a consequence of that his stats would be better. You want Lidstrom's stats to go up, then get the OTHER guys to perform better.



Losing the scoring from all those players is absolutely a factor, but the Red Wings organization should have addressed that (as in, finding adequate replacements). They thought they did by getting Bertuzzi, J. Williams, Helm and Abdelkader, but what an epic fail that turned out. The Red Wings last year were such an offensive force that the defense would just "sit back" and roll in the assists. Even Rafalski was good last year. Why? Cause the offense was getting the points, the PP was better and the D had less pressure to deal with.

You'll see, as the Red Wings forwards improve, become more consistent and get the points, the less Lidstrom and the other D will "suck"
Rafalski was crap last year. And Lidstrom had already been showing signs of decline. Its been evident for 1.5 years that Lidstrom and Rafalski were gradually getting worse.

Fortunately, Lidstrom still has a long way to fall until he becomes an ordinary defenseman (which I dont think will ever happen in his remaining NHL career). But Rafalski? Not so much.

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12-06-2009, 08:44 AM
  #100
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Datsyuk can certainly join Lidstrom now. Except for the SOs he is nowhere to be found.

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