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Gagner vs. Voracek

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Old
11-24-2009, 10:09 AM
  #1
t0mf00lery
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Gagner vs. Voracek

I was thinking of this particular discussion for a while now and unless I have completely missed it, I haven't seen anything about it recently.

As it is well documented there was much debate over whether the Oilers should select Sam Gagner or Jakub Voracek with the 6th overall pick in 2007.

We all know how Gagner surprised everyone and made the team (in what some question as poor asset management) while Voracek spent another year in the QMJHL.

Gagner had a fairly impressive year as an 18 year old tallying 36 assists and 49 points, albeit he was a -21. However, he has failed to improve those numbers and is, in his third season, on roughly that same pace.

Voracek had a lukewarm rookie campaign with 38 points, but he did manage a +11. He is not lighting the world on fire by any means, but he is having a respectable year thus far, on pace for 22 goals and 52 points.

I know it's way too early to talk about these guys in tems of their overall careers, but I'm wondering if we've reached the point where it's interesting to entertain "what-if" scenarios.

What are your opinions? Are you pleased with Gagner's performance in his young career? Do you regret the Oilers choosing Gagner? Would you have preferred a selection of Voracek?

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11-24-2009, 10:12 AM
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Petro Points
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preferred Voracek then and now... but am ok with Gagner... Voracek wouldve been on our top line by now and wouldve fit into Quinn's system better.. Gagner is a hard worker and will find a way to score again..

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11-24-2009, 10:23 AM
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Reimer
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I beleive there was a thread on this like a month or two ago but anyhow. As of right now I think I would prefer Voracek and only because of his size.

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11-24-2009, 10:24 AM
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Homesick
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Gagner started the season on the 4th line with Stortini, and I believe Voracek started the season on the first line with Nash.

While other teams 20 year old draft picks are considered blue chip prospects playing in the AHL/Europe....Gagner is a bust I can never get my head around this reasoning. Not saying that anyone here is implying this, but its just a trend that I'm starting to see

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11-24-2009, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Gagner started the season on the 4th line with Stortini, and I believe Voracek started the season on the first line with Nash.

While other teams 20 year old draft picks are considered blue chip prospects playing in the AHL/Europe....Gagner is a bust I can never get my head around this reasoning. Not saying that anyone here is implying this, but its just a trend that I'm starting to see
That is definitely not my assertion here. I just was hoping to provoke some new discussion on the topic.

I know it's impossible to revise history and that with the benefit of hindsight it can be easy to perceive one's self as an expert, however, it could appear as though Voracek may meet the Oilers' current needs better than Gagner.

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11-24-2009, 10:43 AM
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deanmoriarty
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Gagner will be to this team what Iginla is to the flames. He won't put up as many points but he'll be the captain and heart & soul of the Oilers.

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11-24-2009, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Gagner is a bust I can never get my head around this reasoning. Not saying that anyone here is implying this, but its just a trend that I'm starting to see
i dont think hes a bust.
i just think hes massively overhyped.
if he actually physically matures more in height or strength, it could change his game completely. but if hes around this size and speed for the remainder of his career - hes going to be a mediocre offensive player. which is fine, but i think everyone was expecting some semi-star, first line center. which he could be if you had two elite wingers with him, but him being the "catalyst" of a line right now just seems like wishful thinking.

he barely shows off dominance in any of his skills because of his lack of physical traits.

if that changes in the next 2-3 years - awesome. im not holding my breath though.

him being the "heart and soul" like the comment above is just pure fandom speech.
blind faith based on crap.

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11-24-2009, 10:51 AM
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Joe Hallenback
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Both Players are on pace for the same numbers yet Gagner is having a "disappointing year" and Voracek is having a "Respectable year"

Odd how Oiler fans relate things

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11-24-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpseFX View Post
i dont think hes a bust.
i just think hes massively overhyped.
if he actually physically matures more in height or strength, it could change his game completely. but if hes around this size and speed for the remainder of his career - hes going to be a mediocre offensive player. which is fine, but i think everyone was expecting some semi-star, first line center. which he could be if you had two elite wingers with him, but him being the "catalyst" of a line right now just seems like wishful thinking.

he barely shows off dominance in any of his skills because of his lack of physical traits.

if that changes in the next 2-3 years - awesome. im not holding my breath though.

him being the "heart and soul" like the comment above is just pure fandom speech.
blind faith based on crap.
easy big guy, he's 20 years old

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11-24-2009, 10:54 AM
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I am the Liquor
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They are both good players. Voracek is bigger and maybe more of a goal scorer. Gagner will be a Doug Weight type player. I dont think we should be too worried about it. He does David Copperfield for large stretches, but he is still young.

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11-24-2009, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
Both Players are on pace for the same numbers yet Gagner is having a "disappointing year" and Voracek is having a "Respectable year"

Odd how Oiler fans relate things
Odd how I'm not sure that was said at any point during this thread.

Funny thing about fans...there seems to be a bit of an "all or nothing" attitude. Discussions have to turn into polarizations where one group of people line up on one side and another group lines up on the other side. People start using absolute language like "never", "always", and "nothing".

Discussions turn into attacks and opinions which may differ from one's own are not welcomed as they are deemed unacceptable.

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Old
11-24-2009, 11:20 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centrecks View Post

We all know how Gagner surprised everyone and made the team (in what some question as poor asset management) while Voracek spent another year in the QMJHL.

Gagner had a fairly impressive year as an 18 year old tallying 36 assists and 49 points
My philosophy has always been that it is better to wait the extra year before letting kids play in the NHL. Due to Gagner's hot start, posters here convinced me I was wrong.

However, time has lead me to believe my initial gut feeling was correct...

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11-24-2009, 11:28 AM
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Here's the thing. He's got the best and quickest hands on the team. A great, underrated shot with a knack for finding the net when he's feeling confident. He distributes the puck wonderfully in the offensive zone, the teams most creative passer. Has shown glimpses of working from the wall like Hemsky on the PP. He's the smartest young player on the team, has demonstrated incredible maturity and character at 18/19/20 despite ridiculous pressure from fans.
When his confidence catches up to his skill he's a 70-80 point player, and this is proven by his PPG stretches when he's tried to get his team into the playoffs in the final quarter of the last two seasons.
I know rational thought can be a rare commodity here, but let's think this over - the biggest knock on Gagner is his size/strength, yet he is 20 years old.

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11-24-2009, 11:34 AM
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Joe Hallenback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centrecks View Post
Odd how I'm not sure that was said at any point during this thread.

Funny thing about fans...there seems to be a bit of an "all or nothing" attitude. Discussions have to turn into polarizations where one group of people line up on one side and another group lines up on the other side. People start using absolute language like "never", "always", and "nothing".

Discussions turn into attacks and opinions which may differ from one's own are not welcomed as they are deemed unacceptable.

You inferred it by saying in your first post that his numbers this year haven't improved and then say Voracek is having a respectable year when both he and Gagner are having almost identical numbers this season.

Its not an attack but a statement on how fickle Oiler fans can be when it comes to their own players and prospects.

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11-24-2009, 11:36 AM
  #15
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Gagner's also becoming pretty decent on the dot. 47.3% on the season. I see it going up a tad more as well.

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11-24-2009, 11:48 AM
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I like Gagner, he's up there as far as my favorite Oilers goes... But he's not good. Right now he's not good, and he's exemplifying why this team is losing.

He doesn't shoot, he doesn't assert himself in the offensive zone, and when he passes, it's gotta be some beautiful work of art. I've seen him do that stupid flip over the defenders thing so often this season, it's stupefying. It NEVER works. But he keeps doing it, and doing it and doing it.

He's one of those guys who isn't consistently making smart plays. And he's so important to the team right now, they NEED him to be more responsible, and more of a threat on the ice.

Voracek is better right now. Gagner has far more upside though. Let's hope maturity comes sooner rather than later.

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Old
11-24-2009, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
My philosophy has always been that it is better to wait the extra year before letting kids play in the NHL. Due to Gagner's hot start, posters here convinced me I was wrong.

However, time has lead me to believe my initial gut feeling was correct...
If you're annoyed about the Oilers keeping Gagner around as an 18 yr old, you can thank Jarret Stoll's horrific start to that year for giving Gagner an unexpected window to fill the void of 2nd line center at the time.

Stoll's first 10 games of that year, up to Oct. 25:

10-0-1-1, -7

Gagner's first 9 games, also up to Oct. 25:

9-1-6-7, -1

To this day I believe the Oilers didn't head into the beginning of that year with the intention to keep Gagner up as an 18 yr old come hell or high water, but an unexpected hot start by him combined with an unexpected terrible looking Stoll adjusted things somewhat.

Regarding the final decision to keep Gagner up that year, I wonder how much MacTavish went to bat for the kid to keep him in Edmonton instead of London. I'd bet it was more than a little bit.

As for the OP's question, I still choose Gagner...but I have to say, his confidence looks shot these days. Weird as it sounds, he looked more dangerous as an 18 yr old than he does now.

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Old
11-24-2009, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theranfordflop View Post
I like Gagner, he's up there as far as my favorite Oilers goes... But he's not good. Right now he's not good, and he's exemplifying why this team is losing.

He doesn't shoot, he doesn't assert himself in the offensive zone, and when he passes, it's gotta be some beautiful work of art. I've seen him do that stupid flip over the defenders thing so often this season, it's stupefying. It NEVER works. But he keeps doing it, and doing it and doing it.

He's one of those guys who isn't consistently making smart plays. And he's so important to the team right now, they NEED him to be more responsible, and more of a threat on the ice.

Voracek is better right now. Gagner has far more upside though. Let's hope maturity comes sooner rather than later.
what us fans dont realize is he's getting better slowly last year it took him 47 games to get 5 goals and now in 20 games he already has 5 goals wait for him he will be point per game if we keep the top line of hemsky gagner and penner together he did start on the 4th line this year

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11-24-2009, 12:10 PM
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i can see him being great next year ... wut is he on pace for this year 20 gals 40 assists 60 points i would be alright with that even 50 points he is getting better maybe not on the stats sheet but his game is better then wut it was wen he was 18

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11-24-2009, 12:25 PM
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Everyone said the same stuff about Smid last year ... isn't improving, borderline bust, blah, blah, blah.

You guys just have to accept that it takes time for some of these players especially when they are this young.

Lowe has done a disservice to Gagner by building such a small, soft team. Put him on a normal sized NHL roster and his numbers would likely improve. Ditto for Cogliano.

He's not going to be a star this year but will be a strong, playmaking center for the next 10+ years once he develops which isn't that easy to come by.

MPS is a similar kind of player to Voracek anyway.

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Old
11-24-2009, 12:41 PM
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I wanted Voracek then and now as well. Voracek is bigger, faster, and has a better shot. IMHO, I don't think that Gagner will ever turn into a PPG player because of his lack of speed as a smaller player coupled with his lack of strength on the puck. Voracek on the other hand has all the right tools to become a PPG player with a coach who plays him more than 15 minutes a night and doesn't lose trust in him after one bad play.

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11-24-2009, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hemsky8371 View Post
I wanted Voracek then and now as well. Voracek is bigger, faster, and has a better shot. IMHO, I don't think that Gagner will ever turn into a PPG player because of his lack of speed as a smaller player coupled with his lack of strength on the puck. Voracek on the other hand has all the right tools to become a PPG player with a coach who plays him more than 15 minutes a night and doesn't lose trust in him after one bad play.
^ This.

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Old
11-24-2009, 01:18 PM
  #23
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I'm pretty sure Columbus would be open to dealing Voracek for Gagner.

Gagner is likely more of a Hitchcock type of player and could light it up in that top six.

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11-24-2009, 01:29 PM
  #24
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I'm pretty sure Columbus would be open to dealing Voracek for Gagner.

Gagner is likely more of a Hitchcock type of player and could light it up in that top six.
I would do this in a heartbeat, but I highly doubt Howson would go for it.

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11-24-2009, 01:34 PM
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t0mf00lery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
You inferred it by saying in your first post that his numbers this year haven't improved and then say Voracek is having a respectable year when both he and Gagner are having almost identical numbers this season.

Its not an attack but a statement on how fickle Oiler fans can be when it comes to their own players and prospects.
Perhaps that was just your interpretation of what I was saying? I am not disappointed with Gagner's play per se, I just wanted to initiate a discussion of a comparison of the two players and at this point.

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