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ATD 12 Bob Cole Quater-Finals: 3 Regina Pats vs. 6 New York Golden Blades

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Old
11-27-2009, 11:45 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Actually, you've done nothing to show that Tarasov and Coffey will get along. You've shown that Tarasov will like his talent, as long as it works within his system. But will Coffey like Tarasov? I don't think so. And I don't think Coffey will like not being able to stand out at all.

As for Tarasov-Plante, what evidence is there that Tarasov will take it easy on him? Considering how hard and intense his practices were, and his philosphies, he'd never let Plante off the hook. You say he's "already Jacques Plante", but Tarasov doesn't care about that. Again, I definitely think Plante will not like playing for Tarasov, and there could be a major problem for Regina there.
Yet you're clearly ignoring the part where seventies called you out on calling Tarasov, basically, an idiot. If Plante has asthma, I'm pretty sure Tarasov won't push him to the point where he collapses and dies. He knows the limits of how hard he can push players. He's not an idiot.

You also conveniently ignored both points that showed that Tarasov would encourage an offensively talented defenseman to get engaged offensively.

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11-27-2009, 11:45 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
As for his system, I guess it's not his system that's so rigid, but his methods. He worked his players to the bone and was a very, very demanding coach. No different than some NHL coaches, one might say, but a lot of Soviet players really took a dive once they hit 30 or so. This didn't happen under guys like Bowman. Not saying it's necessarily a bad quality for an ATD coach, but it does show that his system was quite demanding.
That's perfect. We need these players for one season, not 15.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I think two things are going to win this series for us: Regina's first defense pairing and Tarasov's unbinding ways. I'll explain further.

Regina has a very nice top pairing, two very good defensemen, but I think we're going to exploit it. Exploit a team's top pairing, I must be crazy, right? Well, not necessarily exploit it for how weak it is but for how it weakens the team. You see, Hap Day is most certainly his best defensive defenseman, and the other 4 don't scare me at all. James Patrick was a solid defensive defenseman in the NHL, and Svehla was decent as well, but by ATD standards neither are great. And little can be inferred about how good the Patrick brothers were defensively. Either way, no real standouts. Now my forwards might not be the greatest out there, but I like to think I've got quite a bit of scoring talent, and some rushing upside from the blueline. I don't think any of those four defenseman he has past Day can really shut down my guys at all, so I think Plante might be facing quite a few shots. He might be the greatest of all-time, but even he's vulnerable when there's a mis-match. You can have the best checkling line hockey has ever seen, but it won't matter a whole heck of a lot if the defensemen they're paired with are below-average defensively. But what's that you say? Use Day in a shutdown role? Fine by me. That simply put Coffey out there against my best offensive players, which could be a recipe for disaster. And even if you don't buy into that, using Coffey in a shutdown role takes away arguably the best offensive weapon on his team.

As for Tarasov, something I couldn't help but notice is that he's basically always been in control of a dynasty. He was ahead of the curve in developing talent in the Soviet Union, as well as most of Europe, which is an amazing accomplishment. Except it created somewhat of an unkown in this ATD setting: how does Tarasov react to adversity? He developed his players so well that he never really received a challenge for the most part of his career, he was always well ahead of the competition. But when the going gets tough, what does Tarasov do? Tarasov does not seem to be the type of coach to go out and make adjustments when needed, not one bit. So, basically, what that could translate to is should his we expose his system and capitalize on his aggressiveness and pepper Plante, his way of stopping it would likely to be more aggressive, or at least still be as aggressive.

You see, in Hitchcock's system, we're basically going to sit back, play it conservative, and pounce when we get the chance. jarek alluded that Tarasov's aggressive system is the way to beat the trap, but at the same time Hitchock's system is the way to beat aggression. Basically, I see this series coming down to who executes their system the best. My team features a great deal of guys who are extremely coachable and will do anything to win. His features 17 of 18 skaters who could very well have problems with Tarasov(this isn't a shot at the players but rather Tarasov).
- Yes, you keep pretending that the Patricks weren't known as two of the finest defensemen of their time for their defensive ability.

- I'm completely comfortable with Frank and James playing with the two-way third line. James is rock solid and Frank has to know his way around by now as well. The important thing is that they can get the game turned the other way very quickly, in conjunction with one of the best offensive 3rd lines in the draft. A very strong two-way line, a very strong two-way defense pairing, and Jacques Plante? Sorry, what exactly do we have to be worried about?

- As for Tarasov not making adjustments, jarek has put that argument squarely in its place already.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Also, something to note about the PCHA. I'm not sure how many people realize this, or care to admit it, but the total amount of players in that league was 23. Minus the two reserves and three goaltenders, and that's 18 total skaters for the entire league. So, really, if you finished 10th in league scoring, you were actually quite below average. I find that very interesting.
And who does this apply to?

Roberts, the times he was 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in PCHA goalscoring? (he also starred in the NHA)
Morris, the four times he was 1st or 2nd in goals and assists?
Oatman, the six times he was top-6 in goals and the 10 times he was top-6 in assists? (he also starred in the NHA)
Lester Patrick, the five times he was one of the two highest-scoring blueliners in the league? (again, he also starred pre-PCHA)
or, Frank Patrick, who led the PCHA defensemen in scoring in all four of his full seasons there? (again, he also starred pre-PCHA)

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11-27-2009, 11:49 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Konstantiv Loktev himself felt that Tarasov didn't coach as a dictator. Valeri Kharlamov, a guy known for flashy stickhandling and whatnot, seemed to like Tarasov, and the feeling being mutual. What Tarasov didn't like with respect to individuality is a guy going on a solo rush trying to beat the entire other team to score a goal for his own glory. He had no problems with a guy displaying enormous offensive talent in such a way that it helped the TEAM. If Paul Coffey is going on a rush, Tarasov knows this guy is his fastest player and a very good playmaker, he knows Coffey will be going up ice along with the rest of the team and he will distribute the puck as needed. What he won't like is a guy leaving his own zone to go on offense before the team gets the puck back. What he won't like is Paul Coffey leaving the zone on his own and leaving his players behind him, which won't happen. He has no problems with players deking guys out to score a goal. He even said this himself! If you read the quotes I posted, you will notice that Tarasov would have done nothing to restrict a guy from using incredible stickhandling skills to become a better passer or something. No, he'd temper those parts about a player that are his strengths while trying to minimize his weaknesses.



Clearly what he doesn't like is a player playing for his own glory, NOT a player putting on an offensive clinic in an effort to help the team.
And now you're stretching the truth, to call it nicely. First it was his system promotes no individualism and that's a major advantage for this team that features no complete standouts. Now he promotes it as long as it wins. Sorry, no. When he promotes no individualism, that's exactly as it sounds, nothing about glory or anything. If a guy like Coffey goes end to end, he's not going to like it, even if he scores.

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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
So by not doing that, you're basically admitting that you don't want to show them because you know they're not that impressive. Ok, I like where that is going for sure.
Now you're just being an assclown. I believe my guys to be better, you believe your guys. I pull out the quotes and the acclaim, you pull out the stats. No one budges whatsoever. It goes nowhere, and I don't have the time or energy to get into a meaningless and endless debate.

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11-27-2009, 11:53 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
And now you're stretching the truth, to call it nicely. First it was his system promotes no individualism and that's a major advantage for this team that features no complete standouts. Now he promotes it as long as it wins. Sorry, no. When he promotes no individualism, that's exactly as it sounds, nothing about glory or anything. If a guy like Coffey goes end to end, he's not going to like it, even if he scores.



Now you're just being an assclown. I believe my guys to be better, you believe your guys. I pull out the quotes and the acclaim, you pull out the stats. No one budges whatsoever. It goes nowhere, and I don't have the time or energy to get into a meaningless and endless debate.
A breakdown of the stats was requested. If the voters know the stats for one team as well as the acclaim that is well established in the bio links I put at the beginning of the thread, but don't know much about the stats of the other team and know next to nothing about the acclaim other than from their own knowledge because the GM is too busy in a battle of futility to try and show that Tarasov can't coach talented players, what can you expect from the voters? This isn't about me trying to convince you or otherwise, we're trying to convince the voters. Clearly this is lost on you.

And you still seem to misunderstand my arguments about Tarasov. seventies pulled out two quotes that show that Tarasov encourages offensively dynamic defensemen to use their skating and passing skills for offense. It clearly states that he encourages defensemen to go closer to the net on a rush if they are skilled enough to do so. You ignore every good point that is made. Best of luck to you.

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11-27-2009, 11:59 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Yet you're clearly ignoring the part where seventies called you out on calling Tarasov, basically, an idiot. If Plante has asthma, I'm pretty sure Tarasov won't push him to the point where he collapses and dies. He knows the limits of how hard he can push players. He's not an idiot.

You also conveniently ignored both points that showed that Tarasov would encourage an offensively talented defenseman to get engaged offensively.
Dick Irvin tried to stop Plante from using a mask, too. Even at the time, such train of though is incredibly stupid, yet that's how it was. Irvin did it because he though it'd hinder his performance, and I'm sure the same goes for Tarasov in this scenario. There's no evidence that suggests Tarasov would bend the rules, and either way he'd still run Plante as ragged as he could. Plante played in an era where they didn't practice all that often. This is a recipe for disaster.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That's perfect. We need these players for one season, not 15.



- Yes, you keep pretending that the Patricks weren't known as two of the finest defensemen of their time for their defensive ability.

- I'm completely comfortable with Frank and James playing with the two-way third line. James is rock solid and Frank has to know his way around by now as well. The important thing is that they can get the game turned the other way very quickly, in conjunction with one of the best offensive 3rd lines in the draft. A very strong two-way line, a very strong two-way defense pairing, and Jacques Plante? Sorry, what exactly do we have to be worried about?

- As for Tarasov not making adjustments, jarek has put that argument squarely in its place already.



And who does this apply to?

Roberts, the times he was 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in PCHA goalscoring? (he also starred in the NHA)
Morris, the four times he was 1st or 2nd in goals and assists?
Oatman, the six times he was top-6 in goals and the 10 times he was top-6 in assists? (he also starred in the NHA)
Lester Patrick, the five times he was one of the two highest-scoring blueliners in the league? (again, he also starred pre-PCHA)
or, Frank Patrick, who led the PCHA defensemen in scoring in all four of his full seasons there? (again, he also starred pre-PCHA)
What evidence is there that the Patricks were strong defensively? They were strong offensive skaters in a high-scoring era. Nothing really to suggest they were strong defensively.

And I'm quite fine with that third grouping. All it means is that Hap Day won't see a lot of my best offensive players. James is nice, but he isn't great by ATD standards by any means, and there's little to suggest Frank was either. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of two-way play there, but I'm really not afraid of one of my top lines going against that unit at all.

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11-27-2009, 11:59 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
The majority of those quotes and his own bio is from his autobiography. You're not going to really hear about the bad there.
Careful calling it an autobiography. There is very, very little talking about himself in there. The book covers his philosophy on hockey, the results of four world championships, his thoughts on players and styles from all countries, and the directions he feels hockey is going. It's NOT a "blah blah blah, I did this, I did that, I'm so great" book at all.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I've seen them, but they still answer nothing. As mentioned, a top-10 finish was still below average for the league, which is putting it nicely, as it assumes that both points were equal to forwards in terms of goalscoring. Your PCHA boys are used to playing on the ice at all times in a three-team league. I just don't think top-10 finishes and the like in that scenario translate well to the ATD.
For the record, since the NHA was a larger league, a standard "simulated top-20" would contain only about 8 PCHA players and about 12 from the NHA. The "simulated top-10" would contain usually 4 PCHA players and 6 from the NHA. This "below average" 10th-place guy would not get recognized by this system. the best hockey players in the world were spread out between those two leagues with not many exceptions by 1913.

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I believe the direct quote from Tarasov was something alone the lines of believing that if you play a conservative style, you're assuming you will lose.
Sort of. It assumes your opponent is better than you and the only way you can win is by defending. I agree with that philosophy if it is exercized correctly. He stresses initiative throughout the book - take the play to your opponent. We have the players to do that, especially on the blueline. It's a trap-destroying system.

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11-27-2009, 12:03 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Dick Irvin tried to stop Plante from using a mask, too. Even at the time, such train of though is incredibly stupid, yet that's how it was. Irvin did it because he though it'd hinder his performance, and I'm sure the same goes for Tarasov in this scenario. There's no evidence that suggests Tarasov would bend the rules, and either way he'd still run Plante as ragged as he could. Plante played in an era where they didn't practice all that often. This is a recipe for disaster.



What evidence is there that the Patricks were strong defensively? They were strong offensive skaters in a high-scoring era. Nothing really to suggest they were strong defensively.

And I'm quite fine with that third grouping. All it means is that Hap Day won't see a lot of my best offensive players. James is nice, but he isn't great by ATD standards by any means, and there's little to suggest Frank was either. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of two-way play there, but I'm really not afraid of one of my top lines going against that unit at all.
You're honestly comparing a guy trying to stop him from using a mask and a guy pushing him to the point where might die? Now whose being the assclown?

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11-27-2009, 12:06 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
A breakdown of the stats was requested. If the voters know the stats for one team as well as the acclaim that is well established in the bio links I put at the beginning of the thread, but don't know much about the stats of the other team and know next to nothing about the acclaim other than from their own knowledge because the GM is too busy in a battle of futility to try and show that Tarasov can't coach talented players, what can you expect from the voters? This isn't about me trying to convince you or otherwise, we're trying to convince the voters. Clearly this is lost on you.

And you still seem to misunderstand my arguments about Tarasov. seventies pulled out two quotes that show that Tarasov encourages offensively dynamic defensemen to use their skating and passing skills for offense. It clearly states that he encourages defensemen to go closer to the net on a rush if they are skilled enough to do so. You ignore every good point that is made. Best of luck to you.
Actually the concept of the voters isn't lost on me at all. If you haven't noticed, a lot of my offensive stars are contemporary. There's little need to prove how great they were with stats when the voters know of their greatness. You guys do, because not everyone knows how good Gord Roberts or Bernie Morris was.

And I'm not ignoring it. He encourages them to be a part of a rush, that's fine. A part of are the key words there. How would he react to a Paul Coffey end-to-ender all by himself? That's where I believe the problems will lie. Coffey didn't get along with Scotty Bowman whatsoever, so why would he with a guy like Tarasov?

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11-27-2009, 12:09 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Also, as for Shero, that's one coach, who also won a lot of games not due to his imitation of Tarasov's system but rather by simply being tougher than any team we'll ever see. And he didn't limit individual play, either, which is one of my strongest criticisms of Tarasov. Also, a key cog on Shero's cup-winning teams was Rick MacLeish, a player I have no doubt Tarasov would've hated. Shero did like him quite a bit, though. Shero was a fan of Tarasov, ok. The two were very different in a lot of ways, though.
Shero combined a tough team with Tarasov's system. He used a lot of it right down to the training. In Shero's book, he outlines things that the Russians did that ONLY the Flyers copied, and look what happened.

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Actually, you've done nothing to show that Tarasov and Coffey will get along. You've shown that Tarasov will like his talent, as long as it works within his system. But will Coffey like Tarasov? I don't think so. And I don't think Coffey will like not being able to stand out at all.
Who says he can't stand out? Tarasov now has a luxury he craved in Russia but rarely had - a world class puck rushing defenseman.

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As for Tarasov-Plante, what evidence is there that Tarasov will take it easy on him? Considering how hard and intense his practices were, and his philosphies, he'd never let Plante off the hook. You say he's "already Jacques Plante", but Tarasov doesn't care about that. Again, I definitely think Plante will not like playing for Tarasov, and there could be a major problem for Regina there.
The evidence is the fact that he's not an idiot. Plante was a special player with a special circumstance. He would be a fool to mess with that. Nothing Tarasov ever did suggested he was a fool or that he couldn't make adjustments. This really falls under the "what to do with a player who is weak in a certain area" category. Tarasov's main focus will be Plante's strengths.

Plante may not like playing for Tarasov, but he will respect him, he will play for him, and when it's all over, he'll be glad that he did. That's how good coaches work. This is what players have said about Tarasov himself, and other tough SOBs like Bowman and Blake.

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11-27-2009, 12:10 PM
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You're honestly comparing a guy trying to stop him from using a mask and a guy pushing him to the point where might die? Now whose being the assclown?
Well, I don't know if you realize this about masks, but they really can save your life, or at the very least your eyesight and entire face from major long-term damage. Ever taken a slap shot to the face? I don't imagine that feels good. Yet, Plante had to fight to wear it. I'm just saying that sometimes coaches, even the greatest ones, don't have their priorities in order.

Also, it's not like no coach in the history of sport has ever worked a player so hard they died, right? That would be just crazy.

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11-27-2009, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Actually the concept of the voters isn't lost on me at all. If you haven't noticed, a lot of my offensive stars are contemporary. There's little need to prove how great they were with stats when the voters know of their greatness. You guys do, because not everyone knows how good Gord Roberts or Bernie Morris was.

And I'm not ignoring it. He encourages them to be a part of a rush, that's fine. A part of are the key words there. How would he react to a Paul Coffey end-to-ender all by himself? That's where I believe the problems will lie. Coffey didn't get along with Scotty Bowman whatsoever, so why would he with a guy like Tarasov?
Well, Scotty Bowman was about as much of a hardass as Tarasov in my books, so him not liking Coffey going on end to enders doesn't mean much to me. In fact, the voters themselves already felt that it wasn't a terribly huge issue already since we ranked 3rd, why would it suddenly become a huge problem now?

So now you're assuming that the voters know exactly where your guys placed in scoring? At least one voter wants to know those finishes, because a stat comparison was requested. You have yet to provide yours.

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11-27-2009, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Well, I don't know if you realize this about masks, but they really can save your life, or at the very least your eyesight and entire face from major long-term damage. Ever taken a slap shot to the face? I don't imagine that feels good. Yet, Plante had to fight to wear it. I'm just saying that sometimes coaches, even the greatest ones, don't have their priorities in order.

Also, it's not like no coach in the history of sport has ever worked a player so hard they died, right? That would be just crazy.
And I bet any coach that ever did do that also had a questionable track record to begin with. Tarasov was a hard, but fair coach in the eyes of many of the players he coached. They knew what he was about and did everything they could to win for him. I don't think a coach like that, that so many players had a good experience playing for, would be stupid enough to push a player with a health disability too hard, a coach who is enshrined in all of the IIHF, Russian and NHL Hockey Halls of Fame. A man who was thought of as one of the brilliant innovaters of the game.

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11-27-2009, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Shero combined a tough team with Tarasov's system. He used a lot of it right down to the training. In Shero's book, he outlines things that the Russians did that ONLY the Flyers copied, and look what happened.



Who says he can't stand out? Tarasov now has a luxury he craved in Russia but rarely had - a world class puck rushing defenseman.



The evidence is the fact that he's not an idiot. Plante was a special player with a special circumstance. He would be a fool to mess with that. Nothing Tarasov ever did suggested he was a fool or that he couldn't make adjustments. This really falls under the "what to do with a player who is weak in a certain area" category. Tarasov's main focus will be Plante's strengths.
Yet, like I mentioned, they were very different. Shero did not suffocate individualism. And, like I said, Shero was a fan of Rick MacLeish, a guy who Tarasov would've hated. Shero borrowed some things, mainly how Tarasov's teams practiced, but the two were very different.

As for why he won't stand out, like you've said, individualism doesn't take place on Tarasov's teams. Tarasov would love Coffey to work well within his system, but I don't think Coffey will want to. One of Coffey's greatest strengths is his ability to put on a show by himself and dance around everyone. I don't think that will sit well with Tarasov, and I don't think Coffey will react well to Tarasov's methods, either.

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11-27-2009, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
What evidence is there that the Patricks were strong defensively? They were strong offensive skaters in a high-scoring era. Nothing really to suggest they were strong defensively.
- They were selected to multiple all-star teams
- They were frequently named among the best defensemen in the game (Frank was named the best twice that I know of)
- They were specifically targeted by the O'Briens when they built what they hoped to be the best hockey team of all-time, by putting the best possible players together.
- Lester was said to have "thwarted numerous Ottawa rushes" as a very young pointman in a cup final
- over 20 years later, at age 42, he came out of retirement to be the top defenseman on a Victoria squad that was ravaged by injuries. Not only did he pile up the points, but he made them the top defensive team in the league as well.
- I suppose his defensive acumen could have disappeared between 20 and 42. Keep grasping.

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And I'm quite fine with that third grouping. All it means is that Hap Day won't see a lot of my best offensive players. James is nice, but he isn't great by ATD standards by any means, and there's little to suggest Frank was either. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of two-way play there, but I'm really not afraid of one of my top lines going against that unit at all.
Good, underestimate them. With Richard and Tonelli the only guys on your top-6 interested in defending, the transition game will kill them on the occasions in which they don't score, which will be many, with Plante in the crease.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Actually the concept of the voters isn't lost on me at all. If you haven't noticed, a lot of my offensive stars are contemporary. There's little need to prove how great they were with stats when the voters know of their greatness. You guys do, because not everyone knows how good Gord Roberts or Bernie Morris was.
You better hope no one reads, then.

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And I'm not ignoring it. He encourages them to be a part of a rush, that's fine. A part of are the key words there. How would he react to a Paul Coffey end-to-ender all by himself? That's where I believe the problems will lie. Coffey didn't get along with Scotty Bowman whatsoever, so why would he with a guy like Tarasov?
It's not an "individual" play. Coffey didn't just hold onto the puck for the sake of it. He was equally skilled at finding an opening and distributing the puck. Tarasov abhors selfish play; Coffey is not selfish.

Bowman and Coffey were something else altogether.

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11-27-2009, 12:25 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Yet, like I mentioned, they were very different. Shero did not suffocate individualism. And, like I said, Shero was a fan of Rick MacLeish, a guy who Tarasov would've hated. Shero borrowed some things, mainly how Tarasov's teams practiced, but the two were very different.

As for why he won't stand out, like you've said, individualism doesn't take place on Tarasov's teams. Tarasov would love Coffey to work well within his system, but I don't think Coffey will want to. One of Coffey's greatest strengths is his ability to put on a show by himself and dance around everyone. I don't think that will sit well with Tarasov, and I don't think Coffey will react well to Tarasov's methods, either.
Now you're responding to my statements with the same thing over and over again. I'm approaching it from different angles to try to help you understand, but at this point I just don't think you want to understand.

You're saying Tarasov would've hated this guy or that guy without any proof. Are you telling me that Kharlamov never used his skills on individualistic rushes? Or any of the other great players on those teams?

If Bowman had a problem with Coffey and he still gave him those minutes, somehow I doubt Tarasov will treat it any differently. He knows how skilled Coffey is and won't have a problem with his rushes as evidenced by the quotes seventies pulled up. What he won't like is Coffey going out BY HIMSELF for his own glory, which won't happen much. Again, why should this suddenly become a problem when it wasn't a problem for us in the regular season, as evidenced by our third place rank?

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11-27-2009, 12:27 PM
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Oh, and let's not forget the quote about Frank being, what was it, the best hockey player in Canada?

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11-27-2009, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Well, Scotty Bowman was about as much of a hardass as Tarasov in my books, so him not liking Coffey going on end to enders doesn't mean much to me. In fact, the voters themselves already felt that it wasn't a terribly huge issue already since we ranked 3rd, why would it suddenly become a huge problem now?

So now you're assuming that the voters know exactly where your guys placed in scoring? At least one voter wants to know those finishes, because a stat comparison was requested. You have yet to provide yours.
Oh god, not this again. It doesn't matter if you finished 3rd. That does not mean it's no longer a weakness. If that's a valid argument, then neither of our teams have a chance at winning because we finished 3rd and 6th. Maybe the voters didn't look at it as in-depth, I don't know. Either way, "we finished 3rd so clearly it's not an issue" is not an acceptable argument. Also, considering I know both of you think your team is the best out there, maybe it is, as you finished below expectations, and maybe that issue will become even worse in the playoffs.

Also, why doesn't it matter to you if Bowman and Coffey didn't get along well? Like you said, Bowman was a hard-ass, and Coffey reacted badly. Why won't he with Tarasov as well?


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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
And I bet any coach that ever did do that also had a questionable track record to begin with. Tarasov was a hard, but fair coach in the eyes of many of the players he coached. They knew what he was about and did everything they could to win for him. I don't think a coach like that, that so many players had a good experience playing for, would be stupid enough to push a player with a health disability too hard, a coach who is enshrined in all of the IIHF, Russian and NHL Hockey Halls of Fame. A man who was thought of as one of the brilliant innovaters of the game.
I wish I saved the story, but I remember another poster brought up how one of Plante's coaches with the Oilers wanted him to do a bunch of dry land training, even though he knew of his condition, and Plante up and quit. You can say that guy's a bad coach and Tarasov's much too smart or whatever, but it fits his profile that he'll push Plante quite hard, and I don't think Plante will react favorably.

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11-27-2009, 12:30 PM
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Paul Coffey vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORxD2KFQ4oo

How about that one at the end. He scores his 300th goal and does little else other than raising his stick in the air. Doesn't seem very selfish to me. All of those other plays were just fantastic hockey plays. Somehow I doubt Tarasov won't like this guy. I can pull up other vids if you want as well.

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11-27-2009, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Oh god, not this again. It doesn't matter if you finished 3rd. That does not mean it's no longer a weakness. If that's a valid argument, then neither of our teams have a chance at winning because we finished 3rd and 6th. Maybe the voters didn't look at it as in-depth, I don't know. Either way, "we finished 3rd so clearly it's not an issue" is not an acceptable argument. Also, considering I know both of you think your team is the best out there, maybe it is, as you finished below expectations, and maybe that issue will become even worse in the playoffs.

Also, why doesn't it matter to you if Bowman and Coffey didn't get along well? Like you said, Bowman was a hard-ass, and Coffey reacted badly. Why won't he with Tarasov as well?




I wish I saved the story, but I remember another poster brought up how one of Plante's coaches with the Oilers wanted him to do a bunch of dry land training, even though he knew of his condition, and Plante up and quit. You can say that guy's a bad coach and Tarasov's much too smart or whatever, but it fits his profile that he'll push Plante quite hard, and I don't think Plante will react favorably.
I guess we'll see what the voters think, then. You keep replying to me with the same things over and over again, and I keep showing you why it won't be an issue. Bowman's relationship with Coffey didn't stop him from being an elite offensive defenseman.

As far as Plante, well, how about then we remember that the medical treatments for asthma these days are far better than what they had back than anyways? My mom has asthma, and I know a few others that have asthma as well and it doesn't stop them from doing tough labor. If we're assuming that players will be able to adapt to modern times, then we must assume that they'll get modern medical treatment.

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11-27-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Yet, like I mentioned, they were very different. Shero did not suffocate individualism. And, like I said, Shero was a fan of Rick MacLeish, a guy who Tarasov would've hated. Shero borrowed some things, mainly how Tarasov's teams practiced, but the two were very different.
Just yesterday I read that Shero and MacLeish weren't the best of friends. He wanted him to cut his hair; I assume he saw him as a bit of a free spirit or something. But he performed and Shero let him be. (Shero being a Tarasov disciple)

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As for why he won't stand out, like you've said, individualism doesn't take place on Tarasov's teams. Tarasov would love Coffey to work well within his system, but I don't think Coffey will want to. One of Coffey's greatest strengths is his ability to put on a show by himself and dance around everyone. I don't think that will sit well with Tarasov, and I don't think Coffey will react well to Tarasov's methods, either.
Coffey didn't just go dancing around for the sake of it. He was very calculated about it and it wasn't about being an individual and standing out, at all. Coffey works perfectly within a system of skating, initiative, and lightning-fast transition. Coffey isn't Phil Housley. There is a TON of team success to back up the fact that what he did worked very well for his teams.

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11-27-2009, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I wish I saved the story, but I remember another poster brought up how one of Plante's coaches with the Oilers wanted him to do a bunch of dry land training, even though he knew of his condition, and Plante up and quit. You can say that guy's a bad coach and Tarasov's much too smart or whatever, but it fits his profile that he'll push Plante quite hard, and I don't think Plante will react favorably.
Plante was 46 and had won everything imaginable by then. He had nothing to prove. What would you do?

The only goalie I can think of who'd go through that at age 46 just to prove he can, is Hasek.


(edited after I realized Plante was 46, not 43)


Last edited by seventieslord: 11-27-2009 at 04:25 PM.
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11-27-2009, 12:41 PM
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- They were selected to multiple all-star teams
- They were frequently named among the best defensemen in the game (Frank was named the best twice that I know of)
- They were specifically targeted by the O'Briens when they built what they hoped to be the best hockey team of all-time, by putting the best possible players together.
- Lester was said to have "thwarted numerous Ottawa rushes" as a very young pointman in a cup final
- over 20 years later, at age 42, he came out of retirement to be the top defenseman on a Victoria squad that was ravaged by injuries. Not only did he pile up the points, but he made them the top defensive team in the league as well.
- I suppose his defensive acumen could have disappeared between 20 and 42. Keep grasping.
I'd say it's you that's grasping. Considering how good they were offensively, the all-star teams don't surprise me, neither do the other accolades. So, you basically have a quote, surprise surprise. In fact, your "evidence" that the Patricks are good defensively is very similar to what I had about Didier Pitre. Defenseman all his life, highly coveted, I might add(Lester recruited him during one of the cup finals), and a quote about him being a defensive rock one game. There's also the fact that they claim Pitre could skate as fast backwards as he did forwards. That was good enough for you to call Pitre, as a forward, average defensively. Guess that's good enough for the Patricks, too.



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Good, underestimate them. With Richard and Tonelli the only guys on your top-6 interested in defending, the transition game will kill them on the occasions in which they don't score, which will be many, with Plante in the crease.
Yep, the only ones interested in defending. Hitchcock got the likes of Brett Hull to buy into his system, I don't think guys like Anderson and Mullen, or even Stastny, will be a problem.



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You better hope no one reads, then.
I think you meant to say I hope they don't drink your kool-aid, but sure, ok.



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It's not an "individual" play. Coffey didn't just hold onto the puck for the sake of it. He was equally skilled at finding an opening and distributing the puck. Tarasov abhors selfish play; Coffey is not selfish.

Bowman and Coffey were something else altogether.
No coach likes selfish play, but all those quotes are something else entirely, as in they suggest someone making an individual effort. Sometimes an individual effort isn't selfish at all, yet Tarasov seems to hate them. And Coffey was great at doing just that. I'm fine with seeing your best offensive weapon weakened.

Also, how was that different. Coffey didn't like playing for a taskmaster, he liked played in a free-wheeling system under Sather. Again, why is he all of a sudden going to like playing for a taskmaster in Tarasov? Because Tarasov likes offensive defensemen? Real flimsy reasoning if you ask me.

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11-27-2009, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Just yesterday I read that Shero and MacLeish weren't the best of friends. He wanted him to cut his hair; I assume he saw him as a bit of a free spirit or something. But he performed and Shero let him be. (Shero being a Tarasov disciple)



Coffey didn't just go dancing around for the sake of it. He was very calculated about it and it wasn't about being an individual and standing out, at all. Coffey works perfectly within a system of skating, initiative, and lightning-fast transition. Coffey isn't Phil Housley. There is a TON of team success to back up the fact that what he did worked very well for his teams.
Shero praised MacLeish, though, calling him "Mr.everything" and praising his skills. And the thing about MacLeish is that he didn't really perform. He was one of the most talented players out there, but he didn't seem to care until it mattered most. No way that would've flown under Tarasov, yet Shero, at the very least, put up with it.

And while Coffey is very calculated and all that, it's still an individual effort, and all the evidence points to Tarasov not liking individual efforts. And, again, that's a very minor aspect of the problem. I don't believe for a second that Coffey will like playing under Tarasov, just like he hated playing for Bowman.

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11-27-2009, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Paul Coffey vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORxD2KFQ4oo

How about that one at the end. He scores his 300th goal and does little else other than raising his stick in the air. Doesn't seem very selfish to me. All of those other plays were just fantastic hockey plays. Somehow I doubt Tarasov won't like this guy. I can pull up other vids if you want as well.


This is where we're at? Coffey isn't selfish(by the way, I actually said straight up that it wasn't about Coffey being selfish, just an individual) because he doesn't celebrate a goal much. I actually don't know what that video proves at all.

I'm not saying Coffey isn't talented, but I don't think Tarasov will like a lot of the things Coffey does, and I definitely don't think Coffey will like Tarasov at all.

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11-27-2009, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I'd say it's you that's grasping. Considering how good they were offensively, the all-star teams don't surprise me, neither do the other accolades. So, you basically have a quote, surprise surprise. In fact, your "evidence" that the Patricks are good defensively is very similar to what I had about Didier Pitre. Defenseman all his life, highly coveted, I might add(Lester recruited him during one of the cup finals), and a quote about him being a defensive rock one game. There's also the fact that they claim Pitre could skate as fast backwards as he did forwards. That was good enough for you to call Pitre, as a forward, average defensively. Guess that's good enough for the Patricks, too.





Yep, the only ones interested in defending. Hitchcock got the likes of Brett Hull to buy into his system, I don't think guys like Anderson and Mullen, or even Stastny, will be a problem.





I think you meant to say I hope they don't drink your kool-aid, but sure, ok.





No coach likes selfish play, but all those quotes are something else entirely, as in they suggest someone making an individual effort. Sometimes an individual effort isn't selfish at all, yet Tarasov seems to hate them. And Coffey was great at doing just that. I'm fine with seeing your best offensive weapon weakened.

Also, how was that different. Coffey didn't like playing for a taskmaster, he liked played in a free-wheeling system under Sather. Again, why is he all of a sudden going to like playing for a taskmaster in Tarasov? Because Tarasov likes offensive defensemen? Real flimsy reasoning if you ask me.
What is it about this system that you're attacking, anyways? Actually, nevermind. You called Tarasov a taskmaster, which I have already proven false with numerous quotes and examples. Apparently you're still ignoring all my good points.

I'll just sum it up like this: Tarasov coveted a puck possession style with quick transitions, precise passes and fast skating. Everything that Coffey does best. For you to say Coffey won't like playing under him because Tarasov won't like his "individualistic" rushes is beyond asinine when we have two quotes that support Tarasov liking rushing defensemen. As seventies stated, everything Coffey did was calculated and precise. What Tarasov DIDN'T like was a lazy player who played for his own glory. Coffey isn't that. He was the best offensive defenseman of his time, and he won many cups as that, and surely helped spark a very dynamic transition game for the Oilers. He'll be just as good in that role here.

As far as your players under Hitchcock - a tight defensive system isn't going to suddenly turn questionable players defensively into elite shutdown players. It just won't happen. It very rarely has ever happened.

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