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ATD 12 Bob Cole Quater-Finals: 3 Regina Pats vs. 6 New York Golden Blades

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Old
11-27-2009, 11:58 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
As far as your players under Hitchcock - a tight defensive system isn't going to suddenly turn questionable players defensively into elite shutdown players. It just won't happen. It very rarely has ever happened.
Except Hitchcock's systems have had good success, and all his players haven't been great defensively. I've got a lot of players with great attitudes who will buy in, and I think it'll work out just fine.

And Tarasov isn't a taskmaster? Really? How isn't he? He ran his players ragged and worked them very hard. You can use his autobiography for quotes all you want, none of them dispell the notion that he demanded quite a bit from his guys, and I just don't think that will sit well with a guy like Coffey, among others.

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11-27-2009, 12:02 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Except Hitchcock's systems have had good success, and all his players haven't been great defensively. I've got a lot of players with great attitudes who will buy in, and I think it'll work out just fine.

And Tarasov isn't a taskmaster? Really? How isn't he? He ran his players ragged and worked them very hard. You can use his autobiography for quotes all you want, none of them dispell the notion that he demanded quite a bit from his guys, and I just don't think that will sit well with a guy like Coffey, among others.
Now it's among others?

How about Konstantin Loktev saying he wasn't a dictator at all? How is he any different from Bowman and Blake, the consensus number 1 and 2 coaches in history? How is his success not any better than Hitchcock's? Keep ignoring the facts all you want.

And your guys can buy into the system all they want, it won't make them any better defensively when our speed and passing hem you into your own zone, and then at that point it'll be hopeless for you.

Anyways, if all you've got on our team is "Coffey won't like Tarasov", then I'd say you're in deep trouble. He's far from our only offensive weapon, and that's not even getting into our great team defense and highly superior goaltending.

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11-27-2009, 12:06 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I'd say it's you that's grasping. Considering how good they were offensively, the all-star teams don't surprise me, neither do the other accolades. So, you basically have a quote, surprise surprise. In fact, your "evidence" that the Patricks are good defensively is very similar to what I had about Didier Pitre. Defenseman all his life, highly coveted, I might add(Lester recruited him during one of the cup finals), and a quote about him being a defensive rock one game. There's also the fact that they claim Pitre could skate as fast backwards as he did forwards. That was good enough for you to call Pitre, as a forward, average defensively. Guess that's good enough for the Patricks, too.
Except, um, Pitre was a forward for almost his whole career and that info was used to infer how he'd perform defensively as a forward...

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Yep, the only ones interested in defending. Hitchcock got the likes of Brett Hull to buy into his system, I don't think guys like Anderson and Mullen, or even Stastny, will be a problem.
Oh, so everything's OK because you got Hitchcock and everyone will be a defensive player!

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I think you meant to say I hope they don't drink your kool-aid, but sure, ok.
No one needs to drink any "kool-aid" to know that a coach in every hall of fame imaginable who built up a hockey nation from scratch, and is acclaimed internationally as a genius, is going to know what to do with this team.

Actually, the kool-aid flavour you need is the one that makes people overlook the biggest goaltending mismatch of the entire first round!

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And while Coffey is very calculated and all that, it's still an individual effort, and all the evidence points to Tarasov not liking individual efforts. And, again, that's a very minor aspect of the problem. I don't believe for a second that Coffey will like playing under Tarasov, just like he hated playing for Bowman.
No, the evidence points to Tarasov being very interested in defensemen who have the ability to be very dangerous very close to the opposition's net. Which is exactly what Coffey is.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post


This is where we're at?
Yeah jarek, how could you provide video evidence? Stick to stats and quotes and arguing in circles. I think you owe the entire hockey world an apology.

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11-27-2009, 12:08 PM
  #79
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New York's best case scenario here is a repeat of the 1995 Cup finals, with a highly skilled puck possession team led by Paul Coffey's rushing ability was shut down by another talented team that played the trap to perfection.

Scott Niedermayer outplayed Coffey in that series...can he do so here again? Remember Niedermayer scored a highlight-reel goal in Game 2, burning Coffey 1-on-1. Coffey ended up a -3 for the series with no even strength points.

I like Regina's team, but I think Paul Coffey is in a less-than-ideal situation here. I'm not convinced that Tarasov and Coffey are a good fit - my impression was that Tarasov liked defenders to get involved in the attack, but in more of a passing and supporting capacity, not with solo rushes that took them below the goal line. I don't think Coffey is a good matchup against a skilled, mobile team that plays the trap either.

But there is one key difference between Regina and that 1995 Detroit team...Detroit didn't have Jacques Plante in net. That could go a long way in this series.

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11-27-2009, 12:13 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
New York's best case scenario here is a repeat of the 1995 Cup finals, with a highly skilled puck possession team led by Paul Coffey's rushing ability was shut down by another talented team that played the trap to perfection.

Scott Niedermayer outplayed Coffey in that series...can he do so here again? Remember Niedermayer scored a highlight-reel goal in Game 2, burning Coffey 1-on-1. Coffey ended up a -3 for the series with no even strength points.

I like Regina's team, but I think Paul Coffey is in a less-than-ideal situation here. I'm not convinced that Tarasov and Coffey are a good fit - my impression was that Tarasov liked defenders to get involved in the attack, but in more of a passing and supporting capacity, not with solo rushes that took them below the goal line. I don't think Coffey is a good matchup against a skilled, mobile team that plays the trap either.

But there is one key difference between Regina and that 1995 Detroit team...Detroit didn't have Jacques Plante in net. That could go a long way in this series.
Whoops, got my information messed up.


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11-27-2009, 12:22 PM
  #81
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Except, um, Pitre was a forward for almost his whole career and that info was used to infer how he'd perform defensively as a forward...
So you're saying that he can be good defensively as a defenseman, yet average as a forward? So defensive instincts just disappear for no reason? Again, all you have is a quote about how Patrick broke up some rushes. It proves nothing.

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Oh, so everything's OK because you got Hitchcock and everyone will be a defensive player!
If they buy into his system, it should work out just fine. I'm not saying everyone will be excellent defensively, but, it wasn't a problem with Hull, so why will it be now?

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No one needs to drink any "kool-aid" to know that a coach in every hall of fame imaginable who built up a hockey nation from scratch, and is acclaimed internationally as a genius, is going to know what to do with this team.

Actually, the kool-aid flavour you need is the one that makes people overlook the biggest goaltending mismatch of the entire first round!
When I meant kool-aid, I meant how according to you, your team is the best ever and how you have no flaws whatsoever. And it's not unfathomable that Tarasov's approach won't go over well with some, but again, seventies is never wrong ever, so of course they'll be a perfect fit.

As for the goaltending mismatch, I'm not all that worried. Plante is great, but Rayner is also a very good goaltender who had the misfortune of playing on some terrible teams. He's more than capable of playing good hockey. Not only that, but Hitchcock's system has a tendency to make goaltenders look better than they really are(see everything he did after leaving Dallas).


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No, the evidence points to Tarasov being very interested in defensemen who have the ability to be very dangerous very close to the opposition's net. Which is exactly what Coffey is.
And, again, how will Tarasov react to Coffey's individual play, which is one of his strengths? And, again, why would Coffey, who does not like playing under a taskmaster, submit to Tarasov?



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Yeah jarek, how could you provide video evidence? Stick to stats and quotes and arguing in circles. I think you owe the entire hockey world an apology.
What evidence did he show? That was my problem. He was saying that because Coffey didn't celebrate his 300th goal, clearly he's totally unselfish(and I never even called Coffey selfish) and there will be no problems whatsoever. If I had questioned Coffey's abilties, or called him a showboat, then that video would've proved me wrong. But it did nothing, nothing at all.

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11-27-2009, 12:26 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
So you're saying that he can be good defensively as a defenseman, yet average as a forward? So defensive instincts just disappear for no reason? Again, all you have is a quote about how Patrick broke up some rushes. It proves nothing.



If they buy into his system, it should work out just fine. I'm not saying everyone will be excellent defensively, but, it wasn't a problem with Hull, so why will it be now?



When I meant kool-aid, I meant how according to you, your team is the best ever and how you have no flaws whatsoever. And it's not unfathomable that Tarasov's approach won't go over well with some, but again, seventies is never wrong ever, so of course they'll be a perfect fit.





And, again, how will Tarasov react to Coffey's individual play, which is one of his strengths? And, again, why would Coffey, who does not like playing under a taskmaster, submit to Tarasov?





What evidence did he show? That was my problem. He was saying that because Coffey didn't celebrate his 300th goal, clearly he's totally unselfish(and I never even called Coffey selfish) and there will be no problems whatsoever. If I had questioned Coffey's abilties, or called him a showboat, then that video would've proved me wrong. But it did nothing, nothing at all.
The same way he reacted to Kharlamov, which there never seemed to be a problem with.

I'm also going to introduce one other thing into this series: Fetisov is a player that Tarasov knows very well, and I think Tarasov will be able to neutralize him very well as well.

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11-27-2009, 12:30 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
New York's best case scenario here is a repeat of the 1995 Cup finals, with a highly skilled puck possession team led by Paul Coffey's rushing ability was shut down by another talented team that played the trap to perfection.

Scott Niedermayer outplayed Coffey in that series...can he do so here again? Remember Niedermayer scored a highlight-reel goal in Game 2, burning Coffey 1-on-1. Coffey ended up a -3 for the series with no even strength points.

I like Regina's team, but I think Paul Coffey is in a less-than-ideal situation here. I'm not convinced that Tarasov and Coffey are a good fit - my impression was that Tarasov liked defenders to get involved in the attack, but in more of a passing and supporting capacity, not with solo rushes that took them below the goal line. I don't think Coffey is a good matchup against a skilled, mobile team that plays the trap either.

But there is one key difference between Regina and that 1995 Detroit team...Detroit didn't have Jacques Plante in net. That could go a long way in this series.
While Detroit didn't have Plante in net, they also had a great forward group and a very rock-solid defense. They also had the greatest coach of all-time, and still a good goaltender in Mike Vernon. New Jersey, meanwhile, didn't have that great of a forward group, and I'd like to think mine is quite good. Two very strong centermen and four very good goalscoring wingers. So, other than a trap team featuring Scotty Nieds versus a fast-paced team with Paul Coffey, this is kinda different.

An interesting comparison, nonetheless.

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11-27-2009, 12:31 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
So you're saying that he can be good defensively as a defenseman, yet average as a forward? So defensive instincts just disappear for no reason? Again, all you have is a quote about how Patrick broke up some rushes. It proves nothing.
Yeah, and the part about him being 42 and leading a defense that allowed 7 goals in 6 games.

That's about as good as you can get for a defenseman from those times, when it comes to finding quotes about defensive prowess. Now, we can use our brains a bit, or we can just assume that no one who played before the days of stronger hockey coverage was any good defensively.

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When I meant kool-aid, I meant how according to you, your team is the best ever and how you have no flaws whatsoever. And it's not unfathomable that Tarasov's approach won't go over well with some, but again, seventies is never wrong ever, so of course they'll be a perfect fit.
It's too bad that you think I am "never wrong" because I always have the info handy to back up what I am saying. :

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And, again, how will Tarasov react to Coffey's individual play, which is one of his strengths? And, again, why would Coffey, who does not like playing under a taskmaster, submit to Tarasov?
Blah blah blah. You got anything new for me, filibuster, or can we start comparing goalies?

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11-27-2009, 12:35 PM
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The same way he reacted to Kharlamov, which there never seemed to be a problem with.

I'm also going to introduce one other thing into this series: Fetisov is a player that Tarasov knows very well, and I think Tarasov will be able to neutralize him very well as well.
Why does Tarasov know Fetisov very well? Tarsaov was done coaching by the time Fetisov started playing. I imagine Tarasov watched him, or whatever, but I don't think the two knew each other all that well.

And while we're playing that game, I'm sure Henri Richard knows Jacques Plante quite well. Does that mean we have an advantage over Plante now?

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11-27-2009, 12:38 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Why does Tarasov know Fetisov very well? Tarsaov was done coaching by the time Fetisov started playing. I imagine Tarasov watched him, or whatever, but I don't think the two knew each other all that well.

And while we're playing that game, I'm sure Henri Richard knows Jacques Plante quite well. Does that mean we have an advantage over Plante now?
Coaches have adapted strategies in the past to neutralize a team's best player, and this is magnified by a lot when the coach knows that player very well. However, you are correct, I thought Fetisov started playing hockey a lot sooner than that. Ah well.

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11-27-2009, 12:44 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yeah, and the part about him being 42 and leading a defense that allowed 7 goals in 6 games.

That's about as good as you can get for a defenseman from those times, when it comes to finding quotes about defensive prowess. Now, we can use our brains a bit, or we can just assume that no one who played before the days of stronger hockey coverage was any good defensively.
Wow, 6 games, great sample size. Is it as good as it gets, also? You've never come across quotes for defensemen from that era about their defenseive prowess? I highly doubt that, and all I'm saying is there's little evidence to suggest either Patrick was all that good defensively by ATD standards.


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It's too bad that you think I am "never wrong" because I always have the info handy to back up what I am saying. :
In the case of Tarasov, you've used mainly quotes from his autobiography and from former players of his(when has a former player openly bashed a coach, or even a current one, in hockey?). I really don't buy it.

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Blah blah blah. You got anything new for me, filibuster, or can we start comparing goalies?
Haha, the all-mighty seventies has no answer. All you've said is that "Coffey and Bowman was a completely different situation", but why? Bowman didn't like Coffey's defensive play, but Coffey hated Bowman's demanding style. Tarasov coaches a demanding style. To me, that does not look good for Regina.

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11-27-2009, 12:47 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Wow, 6 games, great sample size. Is it as good as it gets, also? You've never come across quotes for defensemen from that era about their defenseive prowess? I highly doubt that, and all I'm saying is there's little evidence to suggest either Patrick was all that good defensively by ATD standards.




In the case of Tarasov, you've used mainly quotes from his autobiography and from former players of his(when has a former player openly bashed a coach, or even a current one, in hockey?). I really don't buy it.



Haha, the all-mighty seventies has no answer. All you've said is that "Coffey and Bowman was a completely different situation", but why? Bowman didn't like Coffey's defensive play, but Coffey hated Bowman's demanding style. Tarasov coaches a demanding style. To me, that does not look good for Regina.
He has no answer because you have CONSISTENTLY been saying the EXACT SAME THING OVER AND OVER again, and we have approached it from several different angles and you refuse to accept any of them. You think you've won because of your persistence? For your sake, you really should hope that nobody reads the arguments when voting for this series.

Oh, and when has a former player bashed a coach? Just recently, actually! I can't remember who it was, but one former player of Ron Wilson's went on record to say that Wilson is a bad motivational coach and doesn't know what to do with young players! How about that? I'm sure there are other examples.

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11-27-2009, 12:50 PM
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He has no answer because you have CONSISTENTLY been saying the EXACT SAME THING OVER AND OVER again, and we have approached it from several different angles and you refuse to accept any of them. You think you've won because of your persistence? For your sake, you really should hope that nobody reads the arguments when voting for this series.
I ask it because you have no answer. You say a whole bunch of things about how Tarasov loves offensive defensemen but nothing about Coffey. But why does Coffey put up with Tarasov? He didn't with Bowman, and Tarasov is more demanding than he is.

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11-27-2009, 12:54 PM
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The ad-hominem arguments are also getting tiring. Grow up.

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11-27-2009, 12:55 PM
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Oh, and when has a former player bashed a coach? Just recently, actually! I can't remember who it was, but one former player of Ron Wilson's went on record to say that Wilson is a bad motivational coach and doesn't know what to do with young players! How about that? I'm sure there are other examples.
A former no-name player bashes his coach 15 years after the fact. Sounds like a has-been trying to make a name for himself. And other than that, it's a very rare occurance. Even Bowman and Coffey made up years after. They realize it's a game and move on. Other than that, I don't think I've ever heard of a former player saying bad things about a coach, or about anyone, really. It's just not the style of hockey players.

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11-27-2009, 12:57 PM
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The ad-hominem arguments are also getting tiring. Grow up.
Ad-hominem? Really? How many of those have I really used, other than saying seventies is always right?

EDIT-Oh, I guess calling you the all-mighty seventies, too, but whatever. Your not exactly one to talk about maturity in an argument. Note the "SomeLeafsBoardFanboy" as your title.

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11-27-2009, 12:59 PM
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I ask it because you have no answer. You say a whole bunch of things about how Tarasov loves offensive defensemen but nothing about Coffey. But why does Coffey put up with Tarasov? He didn't with Bowman, and Tarasov is more demanding than he is.
How can you prove that Tarasov is more demanding than Bowman? Tarasov demands a strong work ethic and dedication to team play. Are you saying that Coffey is going to break down and pout in the corner because Tarasov won't let him do end to end rushes? Coffey under Bowman was still just as effective, despite any bad relationship between coach and player. We've provided ample evidence to support that Coffey - Tarasov will work. Tarasov has worked with many players just as skilled as Coffey - Kharlamov the most notable - and you never hear of any bad feelings between them.

Besides, Coffey's biggest assets are his blinding speed and strong passing skills - skills that translate well to Tarasov's system. All the decisions he makes will be precise and calculated. If he can't find an avenue to pass the puck, he will rush it, as per Tarasov's system. His system demands that the other 4 players on the ice get open for Coffey to pass to, not the other way around. So in essence, it'll be everyone else's responsibility to be open for Coffey, and I don't foresee any problems with that.

Anyways, his end to end rushes aren't his greatest asset, and I seriously doubt Tarasov will bench his best player for it. Bowman didn't do it, Tarasov won't either, and there's no evidence to the contrary. Coffey may not like Tarasov's demanding approach, but when has that ever stopped Coffey in the past? Never, exactly.

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11-27-2009, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
A former no-name player bashes his coach 15 years after the fact. Sounds like a has-been trying to make a name for himself. And other than that, it's a very rare occurance. Even Bowman and Coffey made up years after. They realize it's a game and move on. Other than that, I don't think I've ever heard of a former player saying bad things about a coach, or about anyone, really. It's just not the style of hockey players.
Oh my ****ing God. You ask when a player has ever bashed his coach, I gave you an example, and then you criticize me for it? I'm done with you. Grow up and stop being such a little kid, seriously. When you decide to do that, then maybe I'll respond to you again.

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11-27-2009, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Ad-hominem? Really? How many of those have I really used, other than saying seventies is always right?

EDIT-Oh, I guess calling you the all-mighty seventies, too, but whatever. Your not exactly one to talk about maturity in an argument. Note the "SomeLeafsBoardFanboy" as your title.
Oh yeah, those were your words, weren't they? From another somewhat personal attack. Whatever, I can change that if it bothers you that much. Jeez, you sound agitated.

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11-27-2009, 01:05 PM
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How can you prove that Tarasov is more demanding than Bowman? Tarasov demands a strong work ethic and dedication to team play. Are you saying that Coffey is going to break down and pout in the corner because Tarasov won't let him do end to end rushes? Coffey under Bowman was still just as effective, despite any bad relationship between coach and player. We've provided ample evidence to support that Coffey - Tarasov will work. Tarasov has worked with many players just as skilled as Coffey - Kharlamov the most notable - and you never hear of any bad feelings between them.

Besides, Coffey's biggest assets are his blinding speed and strong passing skills - skills that translate well to Tarasov's system. All the decisions he makes will be precise and calculated. If he can't find an avenue to pass the puck, he will rush it, as per Tarasov's system. His system demands that the other 4 players on the ice get open for Coffey to pass to, not the other way around. So in essence, it'll be everyone else's responsibility to be open for Coffey, and I don't foresee any problems with that.

Anyways, his end to end rushes aren't his greatest asset, and I seriously doubt Tarasov will bench his best player for it. Bowman didn't do it, Tarasov won't either, and there's no evidence to the contrary. Coffey may not like Tarasov's demanding approach, but when has that ever stopped Coffey in the past? Never, exactly.
He's not going to pout, but he could start tuning him out, and it's a slippery slope from there. And it's not just about the end-to-enders. As mentioned, Coffey did not react well to a demanding coach. You say that where's the proof that Tarasov was demanding, yet you provided it. His training was extreme, even compared to today's standards, and he demands a lot from his players. Bowman, too, demanded strong work-ethic and team play, and Coffey didn't react well to it.

I'm not saying Tarasov will bench Coffey, either(although if Coffey tunes him out, it's feasible). But a player tuning a coach out can be a very dangerous path to go down. Especially since Tarasov's system is so dependent on everyone buying into it. Again, if Coffey does not take to Tarasov's ways, it could impolde the team from within, or, at the very least, take away one of Regina's best weapons.

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11-27-2009, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Oh yeah, those were your words, weren't they? From another somewhat personal attack. Whatever, I can change that if it bothers you that much. Jeez, you sound agitated.
It wasn't a personal attack at all, but rather a comment that you took personally for no reason. It wasn't even an insult at all, but it suggested that you're not the most knowledgable hockey historian out there, and clearly you took it to heart.

And it doesn't bother me at all. It just shows how immature you are when someone disagrees with you.

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11-27-2009, 01:09 PM
  #98
jarek
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
He's not going to pout, but he could start tuning him out, and it's a slippery slope from there. And it's not just about the end-to-enders. As mentioned, Coffey did not react well to a demanding coach. You say that where's the proof that Tarasov was demanding, yet you provided it. His training was extreme, even compared to today's standards, and he demands a lot from his players. Bowman, too, demanded strong work-ethic and team play, and Coffey didn't react well to it.

I'm not saying Tarasov will bench Coffey, either(although if Coffey tunes him out, it's feasible). But a player tuning a coach out can be a very dangerous path to go down. Especially since Tarasov's system is so dependent on everyone buying into it. Again, if Coffey does not take to Tarasov's ways, it could impolde the team from within, or, at the very least, take away one of Regina's best weapons.
And again you completely ignore that Coffey was very successful under Bowman, despite not agreeing with his methods. But what else should I expect? Also, what I said was that you cannot prove that Tarasov was MORE demanding than Bowman.

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11-27-2009, 01:10 PM
  #99
Gibsons Finest
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Oh my ****ing God. You ask when a player has ever bashed his coach, I gave you an example, and then you criticize me for it? I'm done with you. Grow up and stop being such a little kid, seriously. When you decide to do that, then maybe I'll respond to you again.
How did I criticize you for it? You posted an example, and I stated why I didn't think it really fit the bill. And either way, it's most certainly the exception, not the rule.

More like you should grow up. I disagreed that your article proved anything and stated why, and you freak out. It's ok if someone disagrees with you, you know.

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11-27-2009, 01:15 PM
  #100
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
It wasn't a personal attack at all, but rather a comment that you took personally for no reason. It wasn't even an insult at all, but it suggested that you're not the most knowledgable hockey historian out there, and clearly you took it to heart.

And it doesn't bother me at all. It just shows how immature you are when someone disagrees with you.
The comment was something along the lines of "why should I care what some fanboy from the Leafs boards thinks of Hainsworth?"

No, it didn't bother me at all, actually. I thought it was pretty funny and decided to wear the label for a while. I don't change those things very often. My last one said "VCL Pwns me" for months.

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