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ATD 12 Bob Cole Quater-Finals: 4 Cairo Desert Dogs vs. 5 Syracuse Bulldogs

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Old
11-25-2009, 06:55 PM
  #26
Leafs Forever
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Weiland is certainly at the bottom end for second line centres. But if Marty St. Louis is a legit second liner, then why not Weiland? Very similar careers (to this point), when you look at it.

What was Weiland like without the puck? I don't imagine he was too physical with his low PIM totals and smallish size. But defensively?
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
His loh bio says he was good defensively and as a penalty killer. His bio in The Trail says he was small, slick, an outstanding stickhandler, could dodge bodychecks but not always crosschecks and in consequence had his nose broken a few times. It mentions that he was a good "utility" player later in his career.
Basically seventies said. Not a physical/tough guy (but that's why Fleury is there) but good two-way ability.

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11-25-2009, 07:03 PM
  #27
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Well, that's a reasonable second liner then, I think.
if he was a winger and had that offensive resume, I'd say he was a great 2nd liner and borderline first liner. But he's a center. I think there are probably 64 better offensively.

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Old
11-25-2009, 10:18 PM
  #28
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In addition to this stuff, I have got the better goaltending (as mentioned) and my blueline is a lot better suited to facing your top line than the vice-versa, which will have an effect on how much each line scores, and effect going in my favor.
Wow, you leave to do a book event and we're already on page two for comments. Good stuff guys.

As the serious wears along your front three are going to generally weaken for two reasons. #1 my first pairing defense has a tremendous physical advantage over your top line and will take full advantage and #2 trying to contain Gordie Howe, something that none of your top 3 are suited for.

I will give you the advantage in goaltending for the regular season but this is playoffs when the pressure is ratcheted up. Tretiak excelled in these situations, in best on best situations.

I'll allow you to convince me that Glenn Hall was the pressure goaltender in the big games that Tretiak was.

Tretiak
Olympics - 19 games - gaa 1.87
World Championships - 98 games - gaa 1.92
Canada Cup - 11 games - gaa 2.00
Izvestia Cup - 58 games - gaa 2.39
Super Series - 11 games - gaa 2.62
'74 Summit Series - 7 games - gaa 3.57
'72 Summit Series - 8 games - gaa 3.87

Hall
49 playoff wins against 65 playoff losses
2.78 playoff career gaa vs. 2.49 regular season career gaa

... in his ten seasons with the Chicago Black Hawks
3.07 playoff gaa vs. 2.57 regular season gaa

... compared with some of his contemporaries
Bower 2.47 playoff gaa vs. 2.51 regular season gaa
Plante 2.14 playoff gaa vs. 2.38 regular season gaa
Sawchuk 2.54 playoff gaa vs. 2.51 regular season gaa
Worsley 2.78 playoff gaa vs. 2.88 regular season gaa

Hall ranks 2nd in regular season gaa, tied for 4th in playoff gaa

Hall's +.39 in playoff gaa vs. regular season gaa
Worsley +.10
Bower +.04
Sawchuk -.03
Plante -.24

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11-25-2009, 10:44 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
Wow, you leave to do a book event and we're already on page two for comments. Good stuff guys.

As the serious wears along your front three are going to generally weaken for two reasons. #1 my first pairing defense has a tremendous physical advantage over your top line and will take full advantage and #2 trying to contain Gordie Howe, something that none of your top 3 are suited for.

I will give you the advantage in goaltending for the regular season but this is playoffs when the pressure is ratcheted up. Tretiak excelled in these situations, in best on best situations.

I'll allow you to convince me that Glenn Hall was the pressure goaltender in the big games that Tretiak was.

Tretiak
Olympics - 19 games - gaa 1.87
World Championships - 98 games - gaa 1.92
Canada Cup - 11 games - gaa 2.00
Izvestia Cup - 58 games - gaa 2.39
Super Series - 11 games - gaa 2.62
'74 Summit Series - 7 games - gaa 3.57
'72 Summit Series - 8 games - gaa 3.87

Hall
49 playoff wins against 65 playoff losses
2.78 playoff career gaa vs. 2.49 regular season career gaa

... in his ten seasons with the Chicago Black Hawks
3.07 playoff gaa vs. 2.57 regular season gaa

... compared with some of his contemporaries
Bower 2.47 playoff gaa vs. 2.51 regular season gaa
Plante 2.14 playoff gaa vs. 2.38 regular season gaa
Sawchuk 2.54 playoff gaa vs. 2.51 regular season gaa
Worsley 2.78 playoff gaa vs. 2.88 regular season gaa

Hall ranks 2nd in regular season gaa, tied for 4th in playoff gaa

Hall's +.39 in playoff gaa vs. regular season gaa
Worsley +.10
Bower +.04
Sawchuk -.03
Plante -.24
Blake provides grit , but yes your top pairing is big and strong and tough and could do well against my top line..if it could keep up with my top line.

Your top pairing is suited for my lines and my pairings aren't suited for yours? I don't have a speed defeiciency first off; Goodfellow, Wilson, Mortson, and Pulford all are at least good defensively, play at least somewhat tough games (Of course Mortson and Pulford are more than "somewhat" tough) and can handle big bodies. All quotes on these 4's intangible ability available on my bios, but to bring them to the forefront;

Goodfellow:
Quote:
"He was a good one," (undrafted player) said of this player. "One of the real stars of the league. He was known at that time as one of the defensemen who could shoot a heavy puck and was one of the hardest shots in the league. He was a hard-nosed player, but a real nice fellow."-Ultimate Hockey
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The Wings broke camp here before Adams had a chance to analyze the outburst of Ebbie Goodfellow, his big defensive star from Ottawa, who felt a complete change in the attitude of the team was necessary before the Wings could hit a winning stride.-Globe and Mail
Wilson:
Quote:
He averaged nearly a point a game, was rock solid in his own end of the rink and was a natural leader on and off the ice.-LOH
Quote:
He was a solid two-way defenseman. Although never a big nor bruising defender, Wilson knew how to effectively play the body and clear the front of his net, and unlike many other skill defenseman of his era he willingly did so. .-Joe Pelletier
Quote:
He was sound positionally in the defensive zone, and, complimented by his great skating ability, had a great knack offensively. Like Al MacInnis after him, he was known for the big slapshot, but was truly a complete defenseman.- Joe Pelletier
Mortson:
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He was one of those players who you loved to hate - unless he was one of your own! ...he earned his corn smashing, crashing, and bashing opponents of all shapes and sizes... He made up one half of the infamous Gold Dust Twins...they both enjoyed the physical game and, as a result, often set the tone of Leafs games....The physical game was easily his strongest suit. A fine skater and rusher, he loved nothing more than crashing some poor opponent into the corner chicken wire. It was this lust for rough stuff that often got him in trouble, as his penalty record indicates. - Ultimate Hockey
Quote:
Mined his way through life's prospects and came out a winner every way...a rusher with a mean streak... The Gold Dust Twins allowed less than a goal per game...-Players: The ultimate A-Z Guide Of Everyone Who Has Played In the NHL
Quote:
He was strongly built and the hardrock type of defenseman who liked nothing better than exchanging bumps. He was also a good skater and effective rusher-The Trail Of the Stanley Cup, Vol. 3
Pulford:
Quote:
“The sight of big him on defence struck waves of fear through the hearts of the enemy.” – Ultimate Hockey
Quote:
“He was considered a masterful defensive defenseman.” – Who’s Who in Hockey
Quote:
“He could take out a man with hits that "could have crippled even the Creator himself." All hyperbole aside, he was a bruiser, a battleship on blades.” – Total Hockey
His Ultimate hockey awards:
Ultimate Hockey’s “Best Body-Checker” from 1900 to 1909
Ultimate Hockey’s “Best Shot-Blocker” from 1900 to 1909
Ultimate Hockey’s “Finest Athlete” from 1900 to 1909
Ultimate Hockey’s “Strongest Player” from 1900 to 1909

--------------------------------------------------------

The pairing that's mainly going to go up against Howe is Pulford-Mortson. You are telling me perhaps the two toughest defencemen of their respective era's, Pulford the best defensive defenceman of his era and (as repeatedly said) the best defencemen defensively in this can't handle Howe? He's got the size for it as well. Mortson, as well, was a punishing, tough player who also played a great defensively with his partner. Please explain indepth why my top 3 isn't "suited" for Howe. I think they can contain him as much as could be possible.

In addition, because all three of my pairings featuring tough guys at least good defensively, I don't really have fear of getting a "bad" matchup against Howe. Sure, I may prefer Pulford-Mortson, but Goodfellow-Wilson and Randall-Leduc play the tough, well-rounded games to go against Howe. Can't say the same for your guys; in addition to your top pairings speed problems it may have; you really want to put out Llyod cook, a question mark defensively (if you have defensive quotes on him, please share), and kevin Hatcher, who, well..

Quote:
Regardless, he was never reputed to be as good in his own zone as he was in the other team's. He seemed susceptible to making boneheaded, risky plays, overhandling the puck and hurting his team defensively. He did not always maximize his size, taking nights off-Joe Pelletier
that. And unfortunately, I've got home-ice advantage; if a good opportunity comes up to place my top line up against your second pairing, I will likely take it. When your top-pairing is questionable to have the speed to face an opposing top line and your second pairing doesn't seem to have any good defensive ability at all, you are in trouble.
--------------------------------------------------------

Next point, goaltending. Yes, Hall drops off in the playoffs; so did those Hawks teams in front of him. The problem with GAA; highly dependant on the teams playing in front. Glenn Hall also has a Conn Smythe to his name, did back his team to a cup, and made a number of cup finals. In that year where the team in front of him actually got their act all together and won the cup? His GAA dropped from 2.51 to 2.02. The guy could succeed in the playoffs; and he's still one of the best in that area. I could dig up quotes on him succeeding in the playoffs if you really need that backup.

You post a bunch of good stats for Tretiak but don't context them like you do for Hall. How many of those olympics and world championship games were actually best on best, instead of Russian team dominates? How many games in general of those were best on best? I look at that Summit Series GAA and think "Well, he didn't so good when he was playing against the best, did he?" Going to need to do more than just post GAA's, I think. Also, I'd like to hear when Tretiak was an MVP for his teams as Hall was at least once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
if he was a winger and had that offensive resume, I'd say he was a great 2nd liner and borderline first liner. But he's a center. I think there are probably 64 better offensively.
Can't say I wouldn't mind seeing them, if it isn't too much trouble. Of course, Weiland's defensve does, I feel, make him worthy of centre of a two-way 2nd (Which was the direction I was going; but Weiland-Fleury is 2/3rds of a good two-way second line, and Weiland's two-way ability is going to come in handy for a number of matchups, like this one)

---------------------------------------------

Last point, a side note directed to all but my opponent; I am contemplating swapping Jimmy Peters to the 3rd line Wharram to the 4th. Good or bad?


Last edited by Leafs Forever: 11-25-2009 at 11:15 PM.
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Old
11-25-2009, 11:56 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Also, I'd like to hear when Tretiak was an MVP for his teams as Hall was at least once.
Well, Tretiak does have the best Russian League MVP voting record, by far.

Quote:
Can't say I wouldn't mind seeing them, if it isn't too much trouble.
OK, let's see what I can come up with... I don't actually know if I will get to 64 or not.

Gretzky, Esposito, Mikita, Lemieux, Dionne, Ullman, Delvecchio, Stewart, Lalonde, Morenz

Boucher, Sakic, Nighbor, Taylor, Cowley, malone, Oates, MacKay, Yzerman, Richard

Bentley, Lach, Apps, Trottier, Fredrickson, Francis, S.Howe, Ratelle, Abel, Barry

Keats, Messier, Dunderdale, Kennedy, Schmidt, perreault, Hawerchuk, Clarke, Stastny, Sittler

Foyston, C.Smith, Keon, McKenney, Goyette, Gilmour, Thornton, Federko, Savard, P.Watson

Forsberg, Sundin, Lindros, Weight, Lafontaine, Primeau, Turgeon, Nicholls, Crosby, Malkin

Modano.....

that's 61. I can't think of any more.

OK, so Weiland has 2nd-line ability. barely.

Quote:
Last point, a side note directed to all but my opponent; I am contemplating swapping Jimmy Peters to the 3rd line Wharram to the 4th. Good or bad?
You sacrifice offense on the 3rd, big time, but gain a nice defensive specialist. If what you want is for your 3rd to be a shutdown line, do it. because that's not Wharram's game, at all.

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Old
11-26-2009, 01:26 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Also, I'd like to hear when Tretiak was an MVP for his teams as Hall was at least once.
1981 Canada Cup MVP, 5-time Soviet League MVP...


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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I look at that Summit Series GAA and think "Well, he didn't so good when he was playing against the best, did he?"
Also, be careful when judging Tretiak on the Summit Series. He was brilliant at times, and average at others. But it's important to remember that he was 20 years old at the time. Take any goaltender in the Hall of Fame and see what they were doing at age 20...it certainly wasn't facing Team Canada. Off the top of my head, Patrick Roy is the only NHL HOFer who was even a starter at that age (for instance Glenn Hall was 4 years away, and that's pretty normal). Destined for greatness or not, the vast majority of goalies are minor leaguers at that age.

Not to gang up on you, but I'm a big Tretiak fan and I don't think he gets the respect he deserves from a lot of people.


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11-26-2009, 01:54 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
OK, let's see what I can come up with... I don't actually know if I will get to 64 or not.

Gretzky, Esposito, Mikita, Lemieux, Dionne, Ullman, Delvecchio, Stewart, Lalonde, Morenz

Boucher, Sakic, Nighbor, Taylor, Cowley, malone, Oates, MacKay, Yzerman, Richard

Bentley, Lach, Apps, Trottier, Fredrickson, Francis, S.Howe, Ratelle, Abel, Barry

Keats, Messier, Dunderdale, Kennedy, Schmidt, perreault, Hawerchuk, Clarke, Stastny, Sittler

Foyston, C.Smith, Keon, McKenney, Goyette, Gilmour, Thornton, Federko, Savard, P.Watson

Forsberg, Sundin, Lindros, Weight, Lafontaine, Primeau, Turgeon, Nicholls, Crosby, Malkin

Modano.....

that's 61. I can't think of any more.

OK, so Weiland has 2nd-line ability. barely.
I'll help you out then

Dubbie Bowie, Frank McGee, Art Chapman, Ernie Russell, Marty Walsh, Tommy Smith, Vladimir Petrov, Igor Larionov, Aleksander Maltsev.....

Didn't Doug Bentley play center after Max left? Bernie Morris played a lot of center, didn't he?

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11-26-2009, 02:28 AM
  #33
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I'll help you out then

Dubbie Bowie, Frank McGee, Art Chapman, Ernie Russell, Marty Walsh, Tommy Smith, Vladimir Petrov, Igor Larionov, Aleksander Maltsev.....

Didn't Doug Bentley play center after Max left? Bernie Morris played a lot of center, didn't he?
Agree on Bowie and Russell. Totally forgot Petrov and Larionov. I guess Maltsev can count as a center. I would not count Doug, I'd call him a LW if I had to choose just one.

So that's 66.

I would not take Chapman over Weiland offensively. Walsh and McGee are close (extremely short peaks) - Smith I didn't forget, but his offensive peak was relatively short and he was not a good playmaker at all, so I left him out.

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11-26-2009, 07:04 AM
  #34
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Well, Tretiak does have the best Russian League MVP voting record, by far.



OK, let's see what I can come up with... I don't actually know if I will get to 64 or not.

Gretzky, Esposito, Mikita, Lemieux, Dionne, Ullman, Delvecchio, Stewart, Lalonde, Morenz

Boucher, Sakic, Nighbor, Taylor, Cowley, malone, Oates, MacKay, Yzerman, Richard

Bentley, Lach, Apps, Trottier, Fredrickson, Francis, S.Howe, Ratelle, Abel, Barry

Keats, Messier, Dunderdale, Kennedy, Schmidt, perreault, Hawerchuk, Clarke, Stastny, Sittler

Foyston, C.Smith, Keon, McKenney, Goyette, Gilmour, Thornton, Federko, Savard, P.Watson

Forsberg, Sundin, Lindros, Weight, Lafontaine, Primeau, Turgeon, Nicholls, Crosby, Malkin

Modano.....

that's 61. I can't think of any more.

OK, so Weiland has 2nd-line ability. barely.



You sacrifice offense on the 3rd, big time, but gain a nice defensive specialist. If what you want is for your 3rd to be a shutdown line, do it. because that's not Wharram's game, at all.
Hall has his own great Hart record during the regular season, and was unquestionably playing in the best league in the world at the time. I was referring more-so to the internatioanl events which would be more like "playoff" games.

Going to have to argue with a couple:

-What makes Sundin better offensively? Weiland has a 1st and a 9th for top-10 points as opposed to a 4th and 7th for Sundin. Weiland also accomplished more offensively in the playoffs.

- What makes Weight better offensively? Weiland has a 1st and 9th in top-10 points to only an 8th for Weight.

- What make phil Watson (that is who you are referring to with P.Watson, right?) better offensively? Weiland has a 1st and 9th in top-10 points to Watson's 4th and 10th. Watson does have an 11th as well, but Weiland halso has a couple more top-15 finishes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I'll help you out then

Dubbie Bowie, Frank McGee, Art Chapman, Ernie Russell, Marty Walsh, Tommy Smith, Vladimir Petrov, Igor Larionov, Aleksander Maltsev.....

Didn't Doug Bentley play center after Max left? Bernie Morris played a lot of center, didn't he?
Did Maltselv play more centre than wing?

Can't say I am sure on Bowie and Russel; particularly when you factor playoffs in Bowie's case.

Quote:
1981 Canada Cup MVP, 5-time Soviet League MVP...
Fair enough.

But a question: was the Canada cupMVP the only time he was an MVP in a best on best situation? Heck, in generanl on the international stage?

Quote:
Also, be careful when judging Tretiak on the Summit Series. He was brilliant at times, and average at others. But it's important to remember that he was 20 years old at the time. Take any goaltender in the Hall of Fame and see what they were doing at age 20...it certainly wasn't facing Team Canada. Off the top of my head, Patrick Roy is the only NHL HOFer who was even a starter at that age (for instance Glenn Hall was 4 years away, and that's pretty normal). Destined for greatness or not, the vast majority of goalies are minor leaguers at that age.

Not to gang up on you, but I'm a big Tretiak fan and I don't think he gets the respect he deserves from a lot of people.
Fair enough.

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11-26-2009, 08:35 AM
  #35
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Fair enough.

But a question: was the Canada cupMVP the only time he was an MVP in a best on best situation? Heck, in generanl on the international stage?
I'd venture to say that as a whole on the international stage Tretiak's record is second to none.

Quote:
Legends of Hockey
Tretiak's stellar performance in the 1972 showdown - as a mere 20-year-old - was only the beginning of his amazing international play. Behind his unprecedented 1.78 goals-against average in 98 international games, the Soviets won Olympic gold medals in 1972, 1976 and 1984. They also captured 10 World Championships and nine European titles and remained virtually undefeated for the better part of a decade in IIHF tournament play.

In addition to shining in international championship play, Tretiak also habitually inspired himself to play his very best during exhibition games against NHL teams. In a game against the Montreal Canadiens on New Year's Eve, 1975 - one that many hockey fans still consider the greatest goaltending performance of all time - Tretiak held the Habs to a 3-3 tie despite being widely outshot, 38-13. He was the MVP of the 1981 Canada Cup, leading the vaunted USSR to their first victory, and the following year turned in another standout series of games on the Soviet All-Stars tour of North America, the highlight of which was his 5-0 shutout of those same Canadiens in the Forum.

From 1971 to 1984, he was the Soviet league's First Team All-Star goalie, spending 14 consecutive seasons as the number one man in the Soviet cage. During this amazing string with the Central Red Army squad, Tretiak won 13 league titles, captured the MVP honors in the Soviet league five times, was awarded the Order of Lenin for his service to the USSR in 1978 and won the coveted Golden Hockey Stick as the outstanding player in all of Europe in 1981, 1982 and 1983. In the 1981 Canada Cup, he was the tournament MVP and the First All-Star Team goalie, posting an amazing 1.33 goal-against average over six games against the world's best teams.

Through his career, Tretiak won three Olympic gold medals, one Olympic silver medal, was part of ten World Championships, was named Best Goaltender at the World Championships in 1974, 1979, 1981 and 1983 and was the tournament Most Valuable Player at the 1981 Canada Cup.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Found this little tidbit on Hall and Tretiak from a fellow board member.

Quote:
Dark Shadows
I rank Hasek 2nd overall, very close to Roy(Jacques Plante = #1 and I flip flop between Roy/Hasek a lot)

But 4/5 for me is Sawchuk(Best 5 year peak of all goalies with the exception of Hasek, who he is close to) and then Tretiak, with Brodeur right on Tretiak's heels a spot behind.

I know a lot of people around here think Tretiak is overrated, etc, so let me tell you right now I do not want to get into that argument here. I saw what I saw from the man, and I think he was an amazing underrated(In HOH) goalie.

Since Brodeur is so close, its likely he will pass Tretiak in the next few years like Lidstrom passed Potvin last year.

Hall, like you, I have behind Brodeur because of playoffs. While on Detroit, with that Dynasty team of Howe, Lindsay, Kelly, Delvechio, etc, Hall had 2 great regular seasons(Including a 12 shutout season), and then 2 huge flops in the playoffs, 1 to a very weak Boston team in 5 games. It was enough for Detroit to send him packing with Lindsay(Who was sent for different reasons).

In 1957 Jack Adams publically blamed Hall for an embarrassing loss to Boston(Who were a mediocre team) and decided when he got rid of Union man Lindsay to ship Hall too.

Boston was a team that had missed the playoffs the year before, and Detroit finished well ahead of them in the standings that year. Howe, Lindsay and Delvecchio all scored over a point per game, so they were doing their jobs up front. Red Kelly was still in fine form back then. The loss was all Hall.

While on Chicago, his playoff record is not that bad(He did have a few good runs), but its not what you would expect either. Often losing out to teams they were better than in the regular season, even with Hull, Mikita and Pilote usually often raising their game.

Chicago had a great defensive team, with multiple hall of fame forwards and defensemen and often were one of the best regular season teams, and routinely lost to lower ranked teams, despite Hull, Mikita and Pilote stepping it up many times.

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11-26-2009, 12:08 PM
  #36
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Going to have to argue with a couple:

-What makes Sundin better offensively? Weiland has a 1st and a 9th for top-10 points as opposed to a 4th and 7th for Sundin. Weiland also accomplished more offensively in the playoffs.

- What makes Weight better offensively? Weiland has a 1st and 9th in top-10 points to only an 8th for Weight.

- What make phil Watson (that is who you are referring to with P.Watson, right?) better offensively? Weiland has a 1st and 9th in top-10 points to Watson's 4th and 10th. Watson does have an 11th as well, but Weiland halso has a couple more top-15 finishes.
Weight's playmaking superiority in a much stronger league does it for me.

Sundin played in a much more competitive time. He kills Weiland in top-15s and 20s in goal scoring, and that is harder to do in a larger league.

I could be convinced about Watson because some of his finishes were in the war, but he's an excellent and underrated playmaker.

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11-26-2009, 01:04 PM
  #37
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I'd venture to say that as a whole on the international stage Tretiak's record is second to none.
I'm not arguing how great Tretiak was on the international stage, but a reason for that is that, until recently, many of the best goalies of the world (from the NHL) never got to play in those tournaments. I am focusing more on the best on best stuff here, again, not tournaments where it was merely Russian team dominates, because that is a true way to compare these.

Did all those world championships and olympics where he didn't get call the MVP of the tournament have MVP awards?



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Found this little tidbit on Hall and Tretiak from a fellow board member.[/QUOTE]

Ok, one guy ranks Tretiak above Hall. Please answer me honestly; if, at that pick where you selected Tretiak, if Hall had been available and you really wanted a goalie, would you pick Tretiak? I also find it strange how he doesn't do anything to boast Tretetiak and show his accomplishments are better; instead just bashing other goalies and declaring Tretiak the better.

Most people rank Hall above, for good reason; the tremendous 7 NHL First team all-stars, 4 second team all-star's, and despite seom medocre performances, he showed he could succeed, and do very well, in the playoffs. Tretiak is a bit of an engima; he succeded in best on best, certainly, but much of his accomplishments came outside of best on best games. Who was Tretiak competing with to be the best goalie in those svoeit leagues anyway? Hall had to deal with Plante, Sawchuk, and Bower over his career. And I guess I will dig up quotes on Hall in the playoffs then.

As for that Boston series in question:

-Detroit scored 1 goal in Game 1 (loss) and got shutout in game 4(loss). Hall let in 3 and 2 goals in those games, respectively. Tell me, how often do you win when you score 1 goal, and how often do you win when you get shutout?

- The other two games were 4-3 losses; Detroit could have scored more, certainly, but some blame may fall to Hall- but considering how the Detroit offense faired in two of the losses, I don't see how you can blame Hall soley for the loss.

Another note, that Bruins teams in '57 came 8 points behind Detroit in the league, so I don't see how Detroit "well ahead" of them. Boston with 80 points was in third; the 4th place team had 66 points, so I am unsure of how they are medocre either. The Bruins actually only scored 3 less goals in the regular season than Detroit, but let in 17 more goals in the regular season; surely Detroit should have never been held to a shutout then, right?

I'd also like to see a more reliable source for that Jack Adams quote.

As for his second supposed "playoff flop" in the previous year, that 12 shutout season well first off, he was a rookie. In the semi-finals, he let in more than 2 goals only once ( letting in only 2 goals twice and only 1 the other two times) on his way to backstopping his team to a series win in 5 games.

In the cupfinals against the Canadiens (who were, by far, the best offensive team and best team in the league in the regular season- the 2nd place team scored 18 less goals! The Canadiens had 100 points that season- 24 more than the second place wings!), but again, the Detroit offense sputtering was evident; getting shutout one game and beind held to one goal in two other losses. Hall wasn't doing great certainly, but it doesn't seem the team in front of him was doing as great as the names and this poster suggests.

Despite what the win-loss record and names suggest, Glenn Hall's teams weren't always favored. Tretiak's teams were, to my knowledge, mostly the best/favored.

Hall did show he could do well in the playoffs in Chicago too. Everyone tends to look at those big names and say "How the heck could they lose!" without considering that this is the original six era. Chicago wasn't the only team with a lot of big names; and again, I don't believe they were always the best, or even mostly the best. They also had some depth problems and, I believe, coaching issues ( although not as certain on that one)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Weight's playmaking superiority in a much stronger league does it for me.

Sundin played in a much more competitive time. He kills Weiland in top-15s and 20s in goal scoring, and that is harder to do in a larger league.

I could be convinced about Watson because some of his finishes were in the war, but he's an excellent and underrated playmaker.
But if we are looking at overall offence, should we not focus on points instead of primarily goals or primarily assists?


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11-26-2009, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Hall did show he could do well in the playoffs in Chicago too. Everyone tends to look at those big names and say "How the heck could they lose!" without considering that this is the original six era. Chicago wasn't the only team with a lot of big names; and again, I don't believe they were always the best, or even mostly the best. They also had some depth problems and, I believe, coaching issues ( although not as certain on that one)
The fact that Hall's GAA rose by a half-goal in the playoffs surely didn't help the Black Hawks playoff chances nor did the fact that he has the worst playoff GAA of his competition (Plante, Sawchuk, Bower, Worsley).

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11-26-2009, 01:55 PM
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The fact that Hall's GAA rose by a half-goal in the playoffs surely didn't help the Black Hawks playoff chances nor did the fact that he has the worst playoff GAA of his competition (Plante, Sawchuk, Bower, Worsley).
The fact that the team in front of him couldn't quite do what they did in the regular season certainly didn't help Hall's GAA. Nor did them being the underdogs a fair amount help that.

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11-26-2009, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post

Did all those world championships and olympics where he didn't get call the MVP of the tournament have MVP awards?
The Olympics and the World Championships don't give out MVP awards.


Quote:
Ok, one guy ranks Tretiak above Hall. Please answer me honestly; if, at that pick where you selected Tretiak, if Hall had been available and you really wanted a goalie, would you pick Tretiak? I also find it strange how he doesn't do anything to boast Tretiak and show his accomplishments are better; instead just bashing other goalies and declaring Tretiak the better.
To be completely honest with you, I avoid picking Glenn Hall in the ATD. Having done a ton of research for my Plante bio, I find that some of Hall's regular season accomplishments (for example, all star nominations) are at best questionable and when combined with his playoff record I tend to pick somebody else.

For example, in 1957-58, Hall is named to the first All-Star team.

The Black Hawks missed the playoffs that year by fourteen points, finishing in fifth place with a record of 24-39-7.

Now let's look at the statistical leaders for goalies.

Wins - Plante 34, Sawchuk 29, Hall 24, Chadwick 21, Worsley 21
Losses - Hall 39, Chadwick 38, Sawchuk 29, Paille 15, Plante 14
Shutouts - Plante 9, Hall 7, Simmons 5, Chadwick 4, Worsley 4
Goals Against - Chadwick 223, Sawchuk 206, Hall 200, Plante 119
Goals Against Average - Plante 2.11, Worsley 2.32, Simmons 2.41, Hall 2.86

To summarize Plante finished ahead of Hall in every available statistical category. Also throw in the fact that Plante played 13 games less that season than Hall. Furthermore, Gump Worsley who plays in 33 less games that year than Hall, finishes with only 3 less wins and 3 less shutouts while also besting him by half-a-goal in goals against average.

Now the voters at the time did not have access to the save percentage statistic but if they did one would further wonder how Hall nabbed the first team nomination that season.

Save Percentage - Worsley .929, Plante .923, Simmons .917, Hall .908, Sawchuk .906

The results seem to confirm that both Plante and Worsley were probably more deserving that year than Hall of the an All-Star nomination (Plante was named to the second All-Star team).

As for who's better, Hall or Tretiak. The fact that Tretiak was denied a chance to play with an NHL team over a regular season makes a regular season comparision impossible. But if I need a win in a pressure-packed, big game situation, I'll take Tretiak over Hall any time.

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11-26-2009, 02:36 PM
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The Olympics and the World Championships don't give out MVP awards.
Aaa, ok.

Quote:
To be completely honest with you, I avoid picking Glenn Hall in the ATD. Having done a ton of research for my Plante bio, I find that some of Hall's regular season accomplishments (for example, all star nominations) are at best questionable and when combined with his playoff record I tend to pick somebody else.

For example, in 1957-58, Hall is named to the first All-Star team.

The Black Hawks missed the playoffs that year by fourteen points, finishing in fifth place with a record of 24-39-7.

Now let's look at the statistical leaders for goalies.

Wins - Plante 34, Sawchuk 29, Hall 24, Chadwick 21, Worsley 21
Losses - Hall 39, Chadwick 38, Sawchuk 29, Paille 15, Plante 14
Shutouts - Plante 9, Hall 7, Simmons 5, Chadwick 4, Worsley 4
Goals Against - Chadwick 223, Sawchuk 206, Hall 200, Plante 119
Goals Against Average - Plante 2.11, Worsley 2.32, Simmons 2.41, Hall 2.86

To summarize Plante finished ahead of Hall in every available statistical category. Also throw in the fact that Plante played 13 games less that season than Hall. Furthermore, Gump Worsley who plays in 33 less games that year than Hall, finishes with only 3 less wins and 3 less shutouts while also besting him by half-a-goal in goals against average.

Now the voters at the time did not have access to the save percentage statistic but if they did one would further wonder how Hall nabbed the first team nomination that season.

Save Percentage - Worsley .929, Plante .923, Simmons .917, Hall .908, Sawchuk .906

The results seem to confirm that both Plante and Worsley were probably more deserving that year than Hall of the an All-Star nomination (Plante was named to the second All-Star team).

As for who's better, Hall or Tretiak. The fact that Tretiak was denied a chance to play with an NHL team over a regular season makes a regular season comparision impossible. But if I need a win in a pressure-packed, big game situation, I'll take Tretiak over Hall any time.
Except that year is by far the strangest of Hall's accomplishments, and the rest are, to my knowledge, at least somewhat understandable by stats. Evidently, the people who watched these guys night-in night-out saw something Hall did that we didn't in this year in queston; I highly doubt they based their voting off nothing but a whim that year.

I don't think it makes it impossible to say; but, really, why is that impossible and then using all those games where Tretiak was behind the big bad Russians who were dominating practically everbody as his "playoff" record? How presre-packed were those games where he was playing behind the, by far, best team in international competition in the world at that time? (as professional Canadians weren't on the stage)

Not that Hall, again, necer succeeded in the big, pressure-filled playoffs; as evident by his cup-run and conn smythe.

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11-26-2009, 02:42 PM
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The fact that the team in front of him couldn't quite do what they did in the regular season certainly didn't help Hall's GAA. Nor did them being the underdogs a fair amount help that.
Favored means that team finished higher in the regular season point standings.
Underdog means that team finished lower in the regular season point standings.

1955-56 Red Wings finish second, beat Leafs in first round (favored), lost to Habs in Finals (underdog).

1956-57 Red Wings finish first, lost to Bruins in first round (favored)

1958-59 Blackhawks finish third, lost to Habs in the first round (underdog)

1959-60 Blackhawks finish third, lost to Habs in the first round (underdog)

1960-61 Blackhawks finish third, beat Habs in the first round (underdog), beat Red Wings in Finals (favored)

1961-62 Blackhawks finish third, beat Habs in the first round (underdog), lose to Leafs in Finals (underdog)

1962-63 Blackhawks finish second, lose to Red Wings in first round (favored)

1963-64 Blackhawks finish second, lose to Red Wings in first round (favored)

1964-65 Blackhawks finish third, beat Red Wings in first round (underdog), lose to Habs in Finals (underdog)

1965-66 Blackhawks finish second, lose to Red Wings in first round (favored)

1966-67 Blackhawks finish first, lose to Leafs in first round (favored)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Playoff Series Record of Hall goaltended teams ...

as favorite ... 2 series won, 5 series lost

as underdog ... 3 series won, 5 series lost

Seven times Hall's team's would be considered the playoff favourite entering a series, five times Hall's team lost.

Hall's playoff goals against average in the five series lost - 3.39

Hall's regular season goals against average over those same five seasons - 2.39

I think it's safe to say that Hall gaa rising by a full goal contributed siginificantly to the unexpected early exits of his team from the playoffs.


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11-26-2009, 03:15 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
Favored means that team finished higher in the regular season point standings.
Underdog means that team finished lower in the regular season point standings.

1955-56 Red Wings finish second, beat Leafs in first round (favored), lost to Habs in Finals (underdog).

1956-57 Red Wings finish first, lost to Bruins in first round (favored)

1958-59 Blackhawks finish third, lost to Habs in the first round (underdog)

1959-60 Blackhawks finish third, lost to Habs in the first round (underdog)

1960-61 Blackhawks finish third, beat Habs in the first round (underdog), beat Red Wings in Finals (favored)

1961-62 Blackhawks finish third, beat Habs in the first round (underdog), lose to Leafs in Finals (underdog)

1962-63 Blackhawks finish second, lose to Red Wings in first round (favored)

1963-64 Blackhawks finish second, lose to Red Wings in first round (favored)

1964-65 Blackhawks finish third, beat Red Wings in first round (underdog), lose to Habs in Finals (underdog)

1965-66 Blackhawks finish second, lose to Red Wings in first round (favored)

1966-67 Blackhawks finish first, lose to Leafs in first round (favored)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Series Record of Hall goaltended teams ...

as favorite ... 2 series won, 5 series lost

as underdog ... 3 series won, 5 series lost

Seven times Hall's team's would be considered the playoff favourite entering a series, five times Hall's team lost.

Hall's playoff goals against average in the five series lost - 3.39

Hall's regular season goals against average over those same five seasons - 2.39

I think it's safe to say that Hall gaa rising by a full goal contributed siginificantly to the unexpected early exits of his team from the playoffs.
Seems Hall's teams were an underdogs a fair amount..but anywho..

-Thus cuts off Glenn Hall's conn smythe year, where his Blues were an underdog in the first round and won, a favored in the second round and won, and an underdog in the third round and lost. That would bring favored rcord to 3-5 and underdog record to 4-6. His GAA went down a couple points too in this year.

- Pretty good underdog record, no? With his conn smythe year factored in, Hall was playing the underdog as much as he was playing the favored.

- For everytime Hall lost as a favored, he won as an underdog.

- Although this is certainly good to show Hall's teams weren't as amazing as one would think, let's keep in mind a few things such as: again, GAA is highly dependant on the team playing in front. Just because you have a high GAA does not mean you were playing poorly, as I am going to ilustrate using Hall specfically.


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11-26-2009, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Seems Hall's teams were an underdogs a fair amount..but anywho..

- Pretty good underdog record, no? With his conn smythe year factored in, Hall was playing the underdog as much as he was playing the favored.

- For everytime Hall lost as a favored, he won as an underdog..
For example, let's compare Hall's playoff series won/loss record in those same year's with Johnny Bower.

Hall
as favorite ... 2 series won, 5 series lost
as underdog ... 3 series won, 5 series lost

Bower
as favorite ... 8 series won, 1 series lost
as underdog ... 2 series won, 4 series lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
- Although this is certainly good to show Hall's teams weren't as amazing as one would think, let's keep in mind a few things such as: again, GAA is highly dependant on the team playing in front. Just because you have a high GAA does not mean you were playing poorly, as I am going to ilustrate using Hall specfically.
Just to use as an example of the importance of a goaltender as opposed to the defense in determining goals against average.

1970-71 Toronto Maple Leafs goaltenders

Jacques Plante - 40 games played, 24 wins, 11 losses, 4 ties, 1.88 goals against %
Bruce Gamble - 23 games played, 6 wins, 14 losses, 1 ties, 3.87 goals against %
Bernie Parent - 18 games played, 7 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties, 2.65 goals against %
Murray McLachlan - 2 games played, 0 wins, 1 loss, 9.60 goals against %

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now each of the four goaltenders played behind the same set of defensemen.

However, all four have wildly different goals against averages.

This would lead one to believe that the play of the specific goaltender was a larger factor in determining the goals against average than the team in front of him.

Thus, the importance of the specific goaltender in determining goals against average.

And obviously, the lower the goals against average, the better chance of the team in front of him winning as one can see by each goalies respective won-loss record that season.

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11-26-2009, 04:28 PM
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For example, let's compare Hall's playoff series won/loss record in those same year's with Johnny Bower.

Hall
as favorite ... 2 series won, 5 series lost
as underdog ... 3 series won, 5 series lost

Bower
as favorite ... 8 series won, 1 series lost
as underdog ... 2 series won, 4 series lost
I can't help but wonder how the Leafs compared to the Hawks in that stretch..but at any rate, Hall is not facing Bower in this series, and I am not calling Hall's record as a favorite good. Just that I don't feel it paints a complete picture.

Quote:
Just to use as an example of the importance of a goaltender as opposed to the defense in determining goals against average.

1970-71 Toronto Maple Leafs goaltenders

Jacques Plante - 40 games played, 24 wins, 11 losses, 4 ties, 1.88 goals against %
Bruce Gamble - 23 games played, 6 wins, 14 losses, 1 ties, 3.87 goals against %
Bernie Parent - 18 games played, 7 wins, 7 losses, 3 ties, 2.65 goals against %
Murray McLachlan - 2 games played, 0 wins, 1 loss, 9.60 goals against %

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now each of the four goaltenders played behind the same set of defensemen.

However, all four have wildly different goals against averages.

This would lead one to believe that the play of the specific goaltender was a larger factor in determining the goals against average than the team in front of him.

Thus, the importance of the specific goaltender in determining goals against average.

And obviously, the lower the goals against average, the better chance of the team in front of him winning as one can see by each goalies respective won-loss record that season.
I'm not trying to say that the goaltendwer does not factor at all into GAA; just that GAA is far from something that paints a black and white picture on how a goalie performs which, again, I will demonstrate (I have some quotes already, but trying to get more; newspaper searching is a pain)

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11-26-2009, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
Favored means that team finished higher in the regular season point standings.
Underdog means that team finished lower in the regular season point standings.

1955-56 Red Wings finish second, beat Leafs in first round (favored), lost to Habs in Finals (underdog).

1956-57 Red Wings finish first, lost to Bruins in first round (favored)

1958-59 Blackhawks finish third, lost to Habs in the first round (underdog)

1959-60 Blackhawks finish third, lost to Habs in the first round (underdog)

1960-61 Blackhawks finish third, beat Habs in the first round (underdog), beat Red Wings in Finals (favored)

1961-62 Blackhawks finish third, beat Habs in the first round (underdog), lose to Leafs in Finals (underdog)

1962-63 Blackhawks finish second, lose to Red Wings in first round (favored)

1963-64 Blackhawks finish second, lose to Red Wings in first round (favored)

1964-65 Blackhawks finish third, beat Red Wings in first round (underdog), lose to Habs in Finals (underdog)

1965-66 Blackhawks finish second, lose to Red Wings in first round (favored)

1966-67 Blackhawks finish first, lose to Leafs in first round (favored)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Playoff Series Record of Hall goaltended teams ...

as favorite ... 2 series won, 5 series lost

as underdog ... 3 series won, 5 series lost

Seven times Hall's team's would be considered the playoff favourite entering a series, five times Hall's team lost.

Hall's playoff goals against average in the five series lost - 3.39

Hall's regular season goals against average over those same five seasons - 2.39

I think it's safe to say that Hall gaa rising by a full goal contributed siginificantly to the unexpected early exits of his team from the playoffs.
In 3 of those 5 loses, his team's offensive output was significantly reduced. On average, his team scored about 0.70 fewer goals per game in those series.

Maybe it was the team in front of him that contributed more to their team's higher GAA?

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11-26-2009, 05:19 PM
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In 3 of those 5 loses, his team's offensive output was significantly reduced. On average, his team scored about 0.70 fewer goals per game in those series.

Maybe it was the team in front of him that contributed more to their team's higher GAA?
It could have been; and I have some quotes to back it up for those first two seasons in Detroit. First off, year 1956. I gathered a few games; there are more I may be able to gather if necessary.

Disproving the supposed "bad" Glenn Hall Playoffs Volume I: The years with Detroit

This is a gathering of game accounts from newspaper articles of Glenn Hall playing the playoffs while he was with the Detroit Red Wings

Account of Hall in 1956 Game 1 against Leafs

Quote:
then the Leafs, obviously heartened by good goaltending, took over and dominated play the rest of the evening. Only because Glenn Hall was his consistent and steady self was the score contained to only two goals. Hall was absolutely maginifigant and had the busier evening.
Hey, Hall could play well when the team in front wasn't (Leafs dominated the rest of the evening part). In this case, it led to less goals. In other cases, not always so fortunate, as I will show:

Account of Hall in 1956 Game 1 against Canadiens-Habs win 6-4

Quote:
But both teams soon called it quits on the excessive rought stuff and the Red Wings began to cash in on superior play- smart defensive work and knife-like thrusts at the slightest opening while Glenn Hall's work overshadowed that of Jacques plante in nets.
Hmm- Wings play good defensively, Hall does well and overshadows great goalie across the rink. A link?

But later in the game..

Quote:
But then the wings were falling under pressure and Beliveau broke the tie at 7:31. Olmstead fed the puck at Geoffrion, who centred it it back from a corner to Beliveau, six feet in front of Hall.

The tying, winning, and clinching goals while Detroit's redoubtable defence pair of Red Kelly and Bob Goldham were trying desperately to stem the onslaught on Hall, who faced 18 shots in the third period against only five in the Red Wings drilled at Plante.
Wings start to play poorly, allowing Montreal to drill shot after shot at Hall, star failing under pressure, and 4 goals are allowed. Let's see..Wings play good defensively, Hall's goaltending praised. Wings play poorly and fall under pressure, let lots of shots go off, Hall let's in more goals (not necessarily his fault- the article certainly didn't blame him, and I don't think they were hesitant to blame guys back then- as I will also show). This all in the same game. You telling me team play doesn't affect GAA?

Account of Hall in 1956 Game 2 against the Canadiens:-Tuesday, april 4th, 1956[

Quote:
A major league goalies, the veteran hockey observer said, is one who comes up with big saves.
Glenn Hall, custodian of the Detroit net, thus qualifies as a major league goalie.


To be sure, he was beaten five times as Canadiens overpowered the sluggish Wings to take a two-game lead in the Stanley Cup final round here tonight, but if he hadn't made the big save there may have been an embarassingly lopsided score to report.

On the shots that did beat him he generally made one or two stops before fanning desperately.
He was further handicapped by the nonchalant manner in which the Montreal attackers reapetdly pulled his defence out of position
.
The article goes on to critize how poorly the Wings played in front of him. Let's see- Wings play poorly, Hall lets in 5 goals, but Hall is still said to play well. Hall had a GAA of 5.00 in the game, but it still said to have played well, and the goals he let in seemed to be more the team playing in front of them on this. You going to tell me a goalie can't have performed well even if they have a high GAA? Or that teams don't have much of an effect on GAA? Or that Glenn Hall can't make big saves in pressure-games?

Account of Game 3 against Canadiens in 1956, which Wings won, Hall letting in only 1 goal:

Quote:
Boom Boom Geoffrion gave the Detroit fans a scare as he forced Glenn Hall into a sliding save midway through the second period. A rush later, Hall managed to get in front of the puck which skidded through the a parcel of players. The Habs were moving in and some observers were predicting two or or three quick goals.
Uh-oh, looks like same old story; Hall doing ok, but now the team in front of him playing poorly and dangerous Habs offence will overwhelm Hall. But wait..

Quote:
But this time the Wings didn't collapse. Instead, they gradually forechecked Canadiens into their own ends of the rink and at game's end had the league champions so frustrated they were making childish moves.
But this time, the wings did well and didn't collapse under pressure! So let me get this straight; Wings collapse under pressure, play poorly, Hall is letting in 4 or 5 goals (although Hall seemed to be playing well despite this in said games). Wings play well, actually forecheck well and don't collapse, Hall lets in 1 goal. No link at all? Hall to blame for the GAA? I think not.

Canadiens, in dominant form, would win games 4 and 5 (which I did not find in originaly searching). They were the heavy favorites after all, and the Wings, by post-game account, seemed to be leg-weary and injured-riddled. I suppose I can try to find games 4 and 5 is necessary.

Now, the next year, against the Bruins:

Account of Game 1 against Boston in 1957-Boston won the game 3-1

Quote:
Red Wings, champions in the National Hockey league and stanley cup winners four times in past 7 years, were a picture of frustration after bolting to a 1-0 lead in the first minute of play.
They never had a serious offensive after that first flurry after that and through much of the evening had trouble getting the puck out of their own zone.
Same story; Wings play very poorly; can't get the puck out of their zone, Hall lets in goals as a result it seems, or more than usual at any rate.

An account of the 3rd goal Hall let in this game:

Quote:
Cheverfils got the insurance goal as his club again came on strongly in the third period. Hall had made two tremendous saves on short blasts by Don McKenney and Leo Labine before Chevrefils blasted home Fernie Flaman's rebound after just 49 seconds of action.
Seems like Hall was playing alright and making stops- good stops- even on plays where he did let it in.

A even clearer picture of painted on the efefct of the team in front is painted in the next game.

Account of Game 2 against Boston in 1957-Wings win 7-2:

Quote:
Just as the title winning Wings could do nothing right in the opener, they could do nothing wrong tonight.

With Hall-despite a first period cut across his upper lip- turning back one Bruin rush after another with catlike movements in the net, Detroit team beat Boston at its own hard-charing style of play.
So apparently the Wings could do nothing right in the first game, to further add to that. But this time, they do everything right; with Hall showing toughness in coming back from injury and playing very well.

So let's summarize these first two games; team in front of Hall plays horribly, Hall lets in 3. Team in front of Hall plays very well, Hall let's in 2. A one goal difference. Wait, wasn't that the difference between Hall's regular season and playoff GAA in playoff series where his team was favored?

A link?

Unfortuntately, things turn sour again:

Account of Game 3 against Boston in 1957- Boston won 4-3

Quote:
Detroit pressed hard in the dying minutes of the game, but a sharp-checking Boston Crew prevented them, from mounting aserious attack on rookie goalie Don Simmons.
Seems like Detroit wasn't doing so bad, but when Boston wanted to shut the door, Detroit couldn't do anything.

Later in the article: A description of the second goal:

Quote:
Boivin, who connected only twice in 55 regular NHL ests, made it 2-0 at 12:00 of the opener when he slid a 50-foot screen shot past Hall, it was his second tally of the series.
Blast those screens..can't save what you can't see. Not that it makes Hall burden-free, but it doesn't seem like he was letting in "beachball goals" so to speak.

Quote:
Leo countered at 18:56 of the middle session after Hall foiled Real Chiverfils who had carried the puck into the goul mouth.
Seemed like Hall was making stops though.

Nowhere in the article is anything particularly negative said of Hall. He let in goals, sure, but it dooesn't seem as if the sole burden fell on him; nor was he playing particularly weak. And the team was having a factor, as I will show in this next quote:

A post-game account after game 3:

Quote:
" We were backing up all night on goalie Glenn Hall" snalred Detroit coach Jimmy Skinner in reviewing defeat. " Why, there were time wherer our guys were so bunched up back there they could have shaken hands with each other."
Backing up and, assumably, not getting the puck out of the zone and forechecking..sound familiar?

Quote:
This was a big onee..we had our chances but we lost through our errors." Jack Adams said.
Notice how he says "our" and not "Hall's" errors, as if a team effort, contradicting by that quote from a poster Canadiens Fan poster earlier, a quote I wouldn't call particularly reliable.

In game 4, Bruins won 2-0. Now, I could not unfortunately find a game-account article: but how many games you win while getting shutout? It seemed SImmons and Boston played a fine game shutting down the Wings offence. Hall, only letting in 2 goal,s doesn't seem to be the reason the Wings lost here.

Account of Game 5 against Boston in 1957-Boston won the game 4-3:

Quote:
Mretro Prystai pulled the Wings to within one goal with two minutes to play. Although Detroit used an extra attacker in place of Goalie Glenn Hall- leaving the net undefended- the NHL champions could not overcome the torrid Bruin forechecking.
Sounds like the offence couldn't quite come through against a good forchecking game from the Bruins, but not entirely their fault by the 3 goals.


Just an account of a couple goals Hall let in:

Quote:
It was a 15-footer that Hall managed to defelcted, but the puck fell behind the goal line and tied the score 1-1.
A luck factor seemingly; although Hall not blameless. Didn't sound like a soft goal however.

Quote:
..beat Hall at the goulmouth for the tying score.
Again, no impression that Hall really played poorly or was letting in soft goals.

And after that Labine goal..

Quote:
Bruins were in command the rest of the way, jumping to a 4-2 lead on goals by Mohns and Gardner
In both the Canadiens and Bruins series, it seems the team in front of him was at least somewhat responsible for his higher GAA.

Although this information does not prove of Hall in the 60s (I will work on that, perhaps, but newspaper is difficult and timeconsuming- but well-rewarding), it should open your mind to the possibility that it could have been the team in front of him that at least partially caused the rise. It also seems to disprove the notion that Canadiens Fan showed in that quote from another poster earlier, that Hall was dreaful and had "two playoff flops" in these years.

Here's what I got on Hall with the Hawks so far:

Account of Game 5 against Canadiens in 1959, where Hall's Hawks lost 4-2

Quote:
Canadiens skated the Hawks into the ice from the outset, firing 15 shots on goalie Glenn Hall.
Seems like Habs took it to the Hawks early, who did not respond well. Habs would score most of their goals in this intiail onslaught according to the article.

later in article..

Quote:
Plante turned aside 26 shots against 35 for Hall.
But it seems the Hawks recovered, and Hall would make a lot more stops than his counterpart in the other net.

No impression from the article Hall played poorly in this one, and I think articles will point out particularly poor play, as shown by this:

1960 against Habs Game 1 account of Habs goal that won in OT, score 4-3:

Quote:
Chcicago netminder Glenn Hall whose view was obstructed by severel players said he did not see the puck until it whizzed pass him, waist high. It was a wonder the puck found a path to the net through the maze of players without being deflected harmlessly.
Seems like Hall didn't have much of a chance on the 4th one.

The article also appears to put blame on another's shoulders, not Hall's..

Quote:
Perhaps the real sad sack of the game was Chicago's defenceman Al Arbour. Moore and Bonin got around him in the Chicago zone to score in the first and second periods and Arbour was serving a minor penalty in the third period when Moore scored his second marker.
Seems like Arbour did more than his fair share to let those goals get in, and another instance where guys in front of Hall's poor play helping to lead to goals.wait, isn't Arbour one of your call-ups?

All quotes were taken directly from the Globe and Mail old article databse. Don't believe? Find these articles and search for yourself- they are exact quotes. (they don't link well)


Last edited by Leafs Forever: 12-04-2009 at 02:35 PM.
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11-26-2009, 07:33 PM
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I have gathered the following on Vladislav Tretiak, as per your earlier request this post focuses entirely on his play in best-on-best (ie, Tretiak vs. NHL players).

1972 Summit Series

Globe and Mail, September 8th, 1972

Quote:
Tretiak has already won two rings as the outstanding Russian player of the past two games.

"He has a lot of poise," says Ed Johnston, one of Team Canada's three goalies. "He is playing with a lot of confidence. Maybe when he came into this series the pressure wasn't so great, because everyone expected them to lose. But the pressure is increasing with every game now and his poise is the same as at the start."
Globe and Mail, September 15th, 1972

Quote:
In all four meetings Tretiak was stronger than his Canadian colleagues.
1976 Super Series

Globe and Mail, January 1st, 1976

Quote:
At the other end of the ice, Canadiens peppere 38 shots at Vladislav Tretiak who proved once again that, ruble for ruble, he has no peer under pressure.
Globe and Mail, January 9th, 1976

Quote:
Vladislav Tretiak ... turned in another exceptional game. Tretiak personally put down the Bruins in the first period, the only period in which their attack was consistent. Boston had 19 shots at the goaltender but could not put one past him. It was clear he was going to have one of those nights again from the time he stopped both Jean Ratelle and Don Marcotte on the opening shift.

Cherry was especially impressed with Russian goaltender Vladislav Tretiak. "He is incredible ... I just don't know about that goalie ... they've got that goaltender ... he's incredible."
1976 Canada Cup

Globe and Mail, September 13th, 1976

Quote:
Tretiak gave up fourteen goals in five Canada Cup games and his heroics were directly responsible for keeping games against Sweden and Canada close.
Globe & Mail, December 1st, 1976

Quote:
Three months after the Canada Cup series, a canary yellow automobile is on it's way to Russian goaltender Vladislav Tretiak. The car was awarded to Tretiak as the most valuable Russian player in the series.
1981 Canada Cup

Globe and Mail, September 14th, 1981

Quote:
Asked if the Russian's were the best in the world, Guy Lafleur replied "I don't believe that. Although if you look at the goaltending of Vladislav Tretiak tonight, he might be the best."

The Canadians thouroughly dominated the first period, keeping the Soviets from making a shot on goal until the 13th minute and outshooting the Soviets 12-4 in the period.

Only Soviet goalie, Vladislav Tretiak who was selected the most valuable player in the tournament, stood between the Soviets and a comfortable Canadian lead after the first 20 minutes.
Globe and Mail, September 15th, 1981

Quote:
Secondly, the 8-1 score was not representative of the play. It was a close game for more than two periods, and Soviet goalie Vladislav Tretiak made the difference during that period of time. It is a truism in hockey that any team can win on any given night when it gets hot goaltending, and there were no hotter goaltenders than Tretiak on Sunday.
Globe and Mail, October 5th, 1981

Quote:
(Team Canada) was not beaten by the Russians, they were beaten by Vladislav Tretiak.
1983 Super Series

Globe and Mail, January 1st, 1983

Quote:
The score was not really indicative of the play. Both team's had some excellent chances, especially in the first two periods, but Tretiak who recorded his second consecutive shutout (Dec. 30th vs. Quebec, Dec. 31st vs. Montreal) was magnificent.

With someone other than Tretiak in the net (who was named the game's star), the Canadiens would have probably won. He was nothing short of magnificent as he turned away everything the Canadiens could fire at him.
Globe and Mail, January 5th, 1983

Quote:
Tretiak was equal to the attack. He remains undefeated on what, if he wishes to play in the NHL be granted, may be his last excursion to these shores as an amateur.

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11-26-2009, 08:13 PM
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Impressive stuff, certainly (except that last quote, which confuses me as Russians didn't go unbeaten in that super series I believe- unless they ran with a different goalie in the losses?)

But does about 30 games of best on best competitions Tretiak played in in those quotes (correct me if I am wrong) really equate to Glenn Hall''s long and stellar career always playing against the best? Glenn Hall's cup run and conn smythe run alone match the number of game, and he seemed to be playing very well in those runs. Not to menion the other years where he performed well in the playoffs.

But we can't talk about goalies all of this match-up, of course ( but I will counter points made on it, sure), so..

---------------------------------------------

Jack Walker-Edgar Laprade-Ken Wharram vs George Hay-Tommy Dunderdale- Lorne Carr

Considering your third line is a third scoring line, I figure Wharram is ok to play here; particularly as you are playing line on line and I want the extra offensive ability Wharram brings.

As far as matchups, my third line will likely be seeing mostly time against your first and third lines; although I am not afraid to put it out against any line.

As mentioned, Walker vs Howe is a matchup I am ok with, Walker being the 3rd best defensive LW after Gainey and Ramsay in my mind; and likely the best forward defensively in this series. For what it's worth, 7 retro selkes (Ok, don't hold near the value of real one's but still, shows he was darn good and dominant defensively. And I am starting to think they poured through old western newspapers we don't have and compared accounts of play to determine year-by-year winners); a retro conn smythe. As for when Walker is going up against Lorne Carr or perhaps occasionaly even Gartner, well..

Quote:
He joined the Victoria Cougars for 1924-25 and figured in yet another Stanley Cup, scoring four goals and two assists in four contests against Howie Morenz and his Montreal Canadiens. In that series, he shut down Morenz entirely.-Total Hockey
If he shut down Howie Morenz completely, I think he should be able to neutralize Carr offensively, and Gartner for when Walker is going up against him. Walker, I feel, is a solid playmaker as well, which I will show a bit later.

I am glad to have great two-way forward Edgar Laprade on Dunderdale and Boucher; he was inducted to the hall pretty much for his great defensive ability, but he's a goodf two-way player as well as shown in the bio. One of the best defensive players and penalty killers of his day, I am quite confident of him going up against Boucher and particularly Dunderdale, who isn't, to my knowledge, known for defensive ability.

Wharram on the RW will cash in on the sound playmaking from Laprade and Walker, and provide energy. As far as his matchup against Hay- well, Hay certainly gets a lot of mileage out of that Adams quote (Which he should, although it was likely somewhat an exaggeration. Although I like that he also features Walker along with the names of Joliat, Bun Cook, and Harvey Jackson) that says he could do everything- but also says how he never got in trouble on the ice and was rarely sent to the penalty box- which his PIMs seem to confirm- so he doesn't seem to be that tough. Still it suggests at least some good defensive ability, and is better on defensive ability than what I found on Wharram. it is the only thing on his defensive ability at the moment however and may have been bias, so not sure if he was
that great in that area. A far as Wharram's intangibles, here are the quotes I found in my partial searching through the globe and mail (more searching to be
done for Wharram though)

Quote:
Ken Wharram, a frail right winger, charged around as thought he had just recieved muscles from Charles Atlas. He missed a couple of goals through overeagerness but there wasn't any body on the ice who generated more energy.
Quote:
Wharram, one of the speediest of the Hawks, turned on a great burst to score Chicago's final goal. Gerry Ordowski, of the wings, had him for one brief instant, but Wharram just flew away...
Quote:
Hull, Hay, Wharram, Eric Nesterko, Ab McDonald, and the hammering Chicago defence of Pieere Pilote, Jack Evans, and Elmer Vasko did most of the harrying and checking that frustrated Canadiens.
From my readings of the golbe and mail it seems the Chicago's were a tough, checking team, something Wharram bought into it would appear.

Quote:
At 5:28 Ken Wharram of Chicago and Pete Geogan of Detroit ripped off their gloves and started swinging at each other at the wings blueline. Soon everyone on the ice except the goalies were piled up at the line in a wild swinging melee. When linesman Ron Wicks tried to break up the fight between Wharram and Goegan, he found himself buried between the two players as the rest of the players entered the scrap.
Not Hay's intangibles likely, but not a guy who only did offense. Speaking of offense...

Goalscoring:

Wharram- 1-2-2-5-7
Hay- 0-1-2-4-7

Playmaking:
Wharram- 0-0-1-3-5
G.Hay- 0-2-5-6-6

Total:

Wharram- 1-2-3-8-12
G.Hay- 0-3-7-10-13

I'll admit Hay is likely going to have an edge in this matchup. Still, I am confident in the ability of Walker and Laprade from preventing your third from scoring anymore than my third will score if they face off head to head.

As far as just the Lw to Lw, Rw to Rw comparison goes, well here's Walker playmaking:

1-2-3-6-9

With his very small goalscoring added, his total:

1-2-3-7-12

Hay wings by virtue of top 10s and 15s, but I feel the big defensive gap here as well as Walker's improvement in 'offense during the post season (I do not believe Hay's offensive finishes improve in the post season) and retro conn smythe, and Walkers get the edge.

Carr's goalscoring and playmaking cosnsietncy:

Goals- 1-2-4-7-8
Assists- 0-0-3-3-4

Of course, all of Carr's best finishes came in the war years (5th in goals 1943; 2nd in goals 1944- three 10th in assists in 1943, 1944, and 1945, and 5th in points 1943, 3rd in points 1944) which more than bridges the gap and gives Wharram the edge, I think.

Dunderdale is the better overall player to Laprade, I will concede; but the matchup is still something I am comfortable with.

Of course a important factor is I can play my third fairly comfortable against any of your lines; your third will get burned, big time, against my 1st, and 2nd will also be a worsematchup for your guys. For that matter, the only line you can really play against my 1st is your own 1st; none of your other lines have the defensive ability to handle my top line; and considering your top-4 is also quite questionable to work well against my top line, that is quite problematic for you.

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11-26-2009, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Impressive stuff, certainly (except that last quote, which confuses me as Russians didn't go unbeaten in that super series I believe- unless they ran with a different goalie in the losses?)
Myshkin played in losses, Tretiak went 4-0 in the 1983 Super Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
But does about 30 games of best on best competitions Tretiak played in in those quotes (correct me if I am wrong) really equate to Glenn Hall''s long and stellar career always playing against the best? Glenn Hall's cup run and conn smythe run alone match the number of game, and he seemed to be playing very well in those runs. Not to menion the other years where he performed well in the playoffs.
Tretiak played 30 games against best-on-best competition.

In those games his goals against average was 3.12.

I would equate those 30 games as the "equivalent" of Hall's playoff games. However, one must also say that Hall never in his entire career faced any team's the equivalent of Team Canada 1972, 1976 or 1981.

Also, in 11 Super Series games against the NHL's best squads he went 8-3-1 with a goals against average with a 2.62 goals against.

The fact is when the game mattered most, under the most intense pressure, Tretiak was the better goalie.

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