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ATD12 Jim Robson Quarterfinals: 2 New Jersey Swamp Devils vs. 7 Kenora Thistles

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Old
11-25-2009, 02:34 AM
  #1
Hedberg
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ATD12 Jim Robson Quarterfinals: 2 New Jersey Swamp Devils vs. 7 Kenora Thistles


2


GM: TheDevilMadeMe
Coach:"Badger" Bob Johnson

Paul Kariya - Joe Malone (A) - Jarome Iginla
Markus Naslund - Aleksandr Maltsev - Ken Hodge, Sr.
Herbie Lewis - Ken Mosdell - Shane Doan
Ryan Walter - Clint Smith - John "Pie" McKenzie
Mel Bridgman - Vladimir Vikulov

Serge Savard (C) - Bobby Orr
Bob Goldham - Art Ross (A)
Viktor Kuzkin (A) - George McNamara
Robyn Regehr

Ed Belfour
Gerry McNeil

Powerplay 1: Paul Kariya - Joe Malone - Jarome Iginla - Aleksandr Maltsev - Bobby Orr
Powerplay 2: Markus Naslund - Clint Smith - John McKenzie - Viktor Kuzkin - Art Ross
Penalty Kill 1: Ken Mosdell - Herbie Lewis - Serge Savard - Bobby Orr
Penalty Kill 2: Ryan Walter - Shane Doan - Bob Goldham - George McNamara

Callups:
F: Sergei Brylin, Scott Gomez, Tony Amonte
D: Zinetula Bilyaletdinov, Jason Smith
G: Kirk McLean

vs.

7

GM: papershoes
Coach: Tommy Ivan

Dickie Moore - Joe Primeau - Yvan Cournoyer (A)
Yvon Lambert - Frank McGee - Harry Westwick
Bob Pulford (A) - Derek Sanderson - Claude Provost
John Sorrell - Harry Trihey - Billy Gilmour
John Ferguson, Adam Deadmarsh

Red Kelly (A) - Guy Lapointe
Mike Grant (C) - Bob Baun
Tomas Jonsson - Bob Turner
Bret Hedican

Alec Connell
Percy LeSueur

Power play units:
PP1: Dickie Moore - Joe Primeau - Yvan Cournoyer - Red Kelly - Guy Lapointe
PP2: Yvon Lambert - Frank McGee - Harry Westwick - Mike Grant - Tomas Jonsson

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Claude Provost - Bob Pulford - Red Kelly - Bob Baun
PK2: Derek Sanderson - Harry Westwick - Mike Grant - Bob Turner
PK3: Joe Primeau - Yvon Lambert - Red Kelly - Guy Lapointe

Callups:
F: Thomas Vanek, Saku Koivu, Stu Barnes
D: Dave Maloney, Shea Weber
G: Michel Larocque



Last edited by Hedberg: 11-25-2009 at 02:52 AM.
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Old
11-25-2009, 02:36 AM
  #2
Hedberg
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I wasn't sure what logo to use for the Swamp Devils, so I used the Jersey Devils of the EHL logo. Let me if you want to change it.

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11-25-2009, 02:49 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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This has links to all the bios I've done for New Jersey Players. It also has my special teams:

Extras: Mel Bridgman(C/LW), Vladimir Vikulov(RW), Robyn Regehr (D)

Powerplay 1: Paul Kariya - Joe Malone - Jarome Iginla - Aleksandr Maltsev - Bobby Orr
Powerplay 2: Markus Naslund - Clint Smith - John McKenzie - Viktor Kuzkin - Art Ross
Penalty Kill 1: Ken Mosdell - Herbie Lewis - Serge Savard - Bobby Orr
Penalty Kill 2: Ryan Walter - Shane Doan - Bob Goldham - George McNamara

Call Ups: Sergei Brylin, Scott Gomez, Tony Amonte, Zinetula Bilyaletdinov, Jason Smith, Kirk McLean

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11-25-2009, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
I wasn't sure what logo to use for the Swamp Devils, so I used the Jersey Devils of the EHL logo. Let me if you want to change it.
The logo is great actually. I was going to photoshop a swamp monster thing with a hockey stick, but didn't have time to make one that didn't look awful. The EHL one seems fitting though.

Anyway, I'll get to more details later. For now, I'll just say that this is an interesting contrast in styles - the Swamp Devils have 4 lines that can score, and the Thistles have 4 lines that can check.

The Swamp Devils have the clear edge in overall team offense, so we will not be strictly line matching. The Malone unit will see lots of time with Orr-Savard at even strength. The Maltsev unit will see significant time with Goldham/Ross, my toughest defense pairing. The Mosdell unit will by paired with Orr-Savard for key defensive zone faceoffs, and when protecting a lead.

We will have a prefered matchup of Orr-Savard against Kenora's top line. Kenora has great checking throughout the lineup, but their weakness IMO is a lack of secondary scoring. So if we can stop (or outscore) their top line, we should be in pretty good shape. For offensive zone draws, the Malone line will be paired with Orr-Savard against Kenora's top line - I think the Kariya-Malone-Iginla-Savard-Orr unit can outscore any 5 man unit Kenora can put together. This is not a strict matchup - Bobby Orr will never come off the ice if he's playing lesser guys. But it is the preferred matchup, and one that we should be able to have most of the time at home.

Mosdell will take the defensive zone draws against the top line (and most defensive zone draws against any line).

I think both lines match up well with Kenora's top line. Kariya, Malone, and Lewis are as fast as anyone in the draft, so they won't be blown away by the Roadrunner. Mosdell is a very well-rounded defensive player who can chip in a good number of even strength points. And Doan and Iginla are both physical enough to handle that aspect of Moore's game.

For the three away games, I'm assuming that Kenora will try to get their top line away from the Savard-Orr pairing. This will be difficult, as the pair will play about half the game in away games. Maybe more in close games. If Ivan can get his top line away from my top pairing, I will play Savard-Orr primarily with my offensive lines, meaning the Mosdell unit would be out there much of the rest of the time.


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Old
11-25-2009, 09:03 AM
  #5
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first off - congrats to devil TDMM for building a very solid team.

i'm looking forward to this match-up as it is much closer then the seeding indicates - and the thistles are poised for an upset. should be a good series.

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11-25-2009, 09:15 AM
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championship pedigree

the first thing that strikes me is the gap in championship pedigree between the teams.

i'm not entirely disappointed with the regular season as, this kenora team was structured for success in the playoffs - selecting players who know what it takes to win, are defensively-responsible when the game gets tight, and do the little things necessary to win.

as a team, EVERY kenora roster player (aside from the farm team) has won at least ONE stanley cup - with the majority being multiple cup winners. the thistles, as a whole, have amassed 93 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONSHIPS. so, their ability to perform when the game is on the line cannot be questioned.

i hope that, when it is time to vote, the voters take into account playoff success.

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11-25-2009, 09:42 AM
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This is a great matchup I'll be very interested to see how it turns out. I had the teams ranked #1 (Kenora) and #2 (NJ) in the division.

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Old
11-25-2009, 04:11 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
the first thing that strikes me is the gap in championship pedigree between the teams.

i'm not entirely disappointed with the regular season as, this kenora team was structured for success in the playoffs - selecting players who know what it takes to win, are defensively-responsible when the game gets tight, and do the little things necessary to win.

as a team, EVERY kenora roster player (aside from the farm team) has won at least ONE stanley cup - with the majority being multiple cup winners. the thistles, as a whole, have amassed 93 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONSHIPS. so, their ability to perform when the game is on the line cannot be questioned.

i hope that, when it is time to vote, the voters take into account playoff success.
Congrats on all the Cups won by members of your team. But I'm not sure how being a support player on a dynasty really translates here. I would argue that at key positions, I have playoff performers who are at least as good. My top defensive pairing has 3 Conn Smythes between them (along with 10 Cups). Joe Malone's prime came before the "retro Smyth" was awarded, but he has 2 Cups as captain of his team and was their leading goal scorer or tied for leading goal scorer both times (along with a 3rd Cup as a support player). Belfour lacks Connel's retro Smythe, but he had two Smythe-worthy performances in 1999 and 2000 and has a longer and more distinguished playoff career overall. For the stats lovers, his postseason save % is tied for Brodeur and behind only Hasek among goalies who played more than 60 playoff games. Iginla was a lock for the Smythe in 2004, had his team come out on top. Pie McKenzie was a pest with clutch playoff scoring, before Tikkanen and Claude Lemieux came along.

Ken Mosdell won 4 Cups as a checking center and Herbie Lewis won 2 Cups as the defensive conscience of Detroit's top line. The Olympics were as close as the old Soviets got to a Stanley Cup, and Kuzkin is one of only 6 hockey players to win 3 Olympic gold medals.

The best offensive player on your team is Dickie Moore, who does have 6 Cups. The first Cup, he had 5 playoff points as a young player. Then during the dynasty years, his playoff scoring record is less than his reputation would indicate:
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=175. He really was the go-to offensive guy in only 1 of the Cup years, for the rest, he was usually behind people like Beliveau, Geoffrion, and Richard.

You have more Stanley Cups on your team as an absolute number, and nobody would ever take that away from your guys. But I think the real reason is that you have more guys from the O6 era, when dynasties were more common. I have more guys pre-O6, post-expansion, and from the USSR, where there just wasn't an opportunity to rack up as many Stanley Cups. You also have guys like Yvon Lambert, who were support players on dynasties. If we are just counting Cups, Lambert's 7 look a lot like Serge Savard's 8, but I think we all know who played a bigger role on those teams. In terms of performances in pressure games, I'll put my team right up there with yours. And that's when the talent gap between the teams (and especially the Swamp Devils' huge advantage in secondary scoring) should put mine over the top.

I'll be back to do line by line comparisons before the votes are due.


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11-25-2009, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
The Olympics were as close as the old Soviets got to a Stanley Cup, and Kuzkin is one of only 6 hockey players to win 3 Olympic gold medals.
The Worlds were basically the same thing too. Every 4th world championship was called The Olympics, as far as hockey was concerned.

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11-25-2009, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Congrats on all the Cups won by members of your team. But I'm not sure how being a support player on a dynasty really translates here. I would argue that at key positions, I have playoff performers who are at least as good. My top defensive pairing has 3 Conn Smythes between them (along with 10 Cups). Joe Malone's prime came before the "retro Smyth" was awarded, but he has 2 Cups as captain of his team and was their leading goal scorer or tied for leading goal scorer both times (along with a 3rd Cup as a support player).
lets role with this argument...i believe that the thistles are, for the most part, stronger at key positions when playoffs are taken into consideration.

the kenora first line is much stronger in the playoffs then the swamp devils first-line. dickie moore is a multiple cup-winning left winger and, led the league in playoff scoring twice. yvan cournoyer was also an integral member of multiple cup winners and, won a conn leading his team in playoff scoring. kariya and iginla on the other hand have yet to win a single stanley cup. malone certainly is stronger then primeau but, by my accounts, only led the playoffs in scoring once.

the kenora checking line also has the advantage in postseason play - particularly when discussing role players.

there is certainly no questioning the orr-savard pairing - three conn's, a handful of cups, and arguably the best pairing in the draft. however, we aren't comparing them to a kaberle-schenn pairing, we are comparing them to kelly-lapointe...lapointe was a member of the same dynasty habs teams as savard and, was considered alongside savard as one of the big three on the habs blueline. and red kelly, in my opinion the third best offensive defenceman ever, was an integral part of 8 stanley cups.

i like your analysis of belfour and connell - i think belfour has the edge but, to me, it's not as big as it may seem.

Quote:
I'll be back to do line by line comparisons before the votes are due.
same here - and, i'll also address this perceived notion of a lack of secondary scoring...

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11-27-2009, 07:22 PM
  #11
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On a line by line breakdown, this is how I see the teams:

Top line = close. Slight offensive edge to New Jersey, Bigger defensive edge to Kenora.

I'm going to compare players out of position, because it's clear who the best, 2nd best, and 3rd best guy on each line is.

I personally have Joe Malone as better than Dickie Moore, and the last HOH Top 100 list agrees. Malone was the 2nd best goal scorer and 3rd best offensive player of hockey's first half century (the pre-Morenz era), whereas Moore had competition as 3rd best scorer on his own (super stacked) team. Moore's intangibles and all-round game make them closer overall, and they might be "even" overall. Maybe. But in terms of pure scoring, I think Malone beats Moore.

Cournoyer = Iginla. Completely different styles, but I think they should be ranked fairly close to each other. Iginla has more individual success, a higher statistical peak, and brings much more to the table physically. Cournoyer has much more team success as a star on his team (but never THE star), and that does matter. Neither was on the last completed HOH Top 100 list, but both would certainly be in the 101-150 range.

Primeau = Kariya offensively. Primeau led the league in assists 3 times, playing between two Top 100 players. But this is a case where seperating goals and assists makes Primeau look better offensively than he actually was (at least in comparison to a more balanced scorer). If we look at their overall production, Primeau was Top 10 in scoring 3 Times (2, 2, 6), while Kariya was Top 10 4 times (3, 3, 4, 7) playing in a much deeper era. Primeau had the advantage in linemates (though Selanne was no slouch himself). I'd be tempted to give the overall offensive edge to Kariya, but I think they are close enough that I'll just call it a wash. Primeau obviously brings more to the table defensively.

Overall, I think the offense of my first line is a bit better, mainly because I think Joe Malone is the best purely offensive player on either line.

Defensively, Cournoyer was nothing special (and his D was so bad early in his career that he was used as a PP specialist). However, Primeau is the best defensive player on either line and Moore is likely second best, so Kenora does have the edge in two-way play from their first line. But how much does this matter when New Jersey's first unit will play primarily with Savard-Orr? Nobody on NJ's first line is an outright liability defensively, either; they just aren't great.
_____
Second line = Huge advantage for New Jersey.

In short, Maltsev is the best secondary scorer on either team by a wide margin. It's impossible to directly compare old Soviets to NHLers, but if you look at Maltsev's profile, you'll see that it's quite comparable to contemporaries Kharlamov and Mikhailov (taking into account that Maltsev was never part of a super unit on the Red Army team).

Markus Naslund and Ken Hodge both had relatively short primes. However, both of their primes were longer than the career of Frank McGee, who is the best player on Kenora's second line.

Westwick and Lambert don't seem to provide much offensively in an all-time context. I don't think I'd want either one on a line that is counted on to score in this format, especially a line centered by a guy who most consider a below average second liner.

___
Third/checking line = Close. Moderate offensive edge to New Jersey. Moderate defensive edge to Kenora.

Kenora has one of the best pure checking lines in the draft. Provost is the best defensive RW of all time, and Puflord is a great defensive LW. They are centered by Sanderson, who was a pretty good two-way guy himself.

However, I'm not sure if the Swamp Devils are the type of team Kenora's checking line matches up well against. FIrst of all, NJ has 4 lines and a defenseman on each pairing who can score. This makes NJ a bad matchup for a team like Kenora that depends heavily on a checking line. A team with an elite first line but less scoring depth would have been a better matchup for Kenora.

Second, NJ's offense flows primarily from its defensemen (in particular Orr and Ross) and its centers (particularly Malone and Maltsev). The fact that NJ's attack does not depend heavily on its wings lessens the impact of Provost and Pulford. And while Sanderson is a worthy checking center in this format, he isn't anything special in an all-time sense.

NJ's checking line isn't quite as good defensively as Kenora's, but I think their offensive edge evens things out. First of all, the defensive gap isn't that great. Herbie Lewis is a HOFer, primarily for his defensive play (something that even Provost cannot say... yet). His bio calls him the fastest player of his era, so he should be able to keep up with the Cournoyer when they play against each other. And Mosdell won multiple Stanley Cups as the checking center used by a linematching coach. Doan is the weakest member of the third line, but is a regular for Team Canada, where he plays a much more defensive role than he does in Phoenix.

Mosdell is the best offensive player on either checking unit. When he was allowed to play more offense due to injuries to Elmer Lach, he was good enough to be a First Team and Second Team All Star in back to back years. When he was a 2nd team all star, he was 3rd in the league in even-strength points, just 3 behind the leader (Richard) and ahead of the Art Ross winner (Geoffrion). Overall, Mosdell was Top 10 in goals twice and Lewis was 4th in assists twice. Doan gives the line a physical presence, without being a liability at either end of the rink.

The only player on Kenora who finished Top 10 in any offensive category is Provost. I think the offensive gap that New Jersey's 3rd line has on Kenora's makes up for the small defensive gap between the two. It might even more than make up for the gap.

____

4th lines are 4th lines. Papershoes hasn't yet announced how he plans on using Kenora's 4th line, so I'll refrain from commenting on his line, other than to say that my line provides a lot more scoring his, particularly from Smith and McKenzie.

NJ's 4th line is talented enough to take the occasional shift against Kenora's top line, especially early in the game. Nothing sets the tone of the game like Pie McKenzie taking shots at Dickie Moore, while Moore's linemates aren't the type to be able to defend him. Ryan Walter can drop the gloves if need be, but if I need someone who loves to drop the gloves, I can always insert Bridgman into the lineup. However, I don't think it will be necessary with this matchup.

I think NJ has a set of Top 4 defensemen good enough to allow our 4th to go against Kenora's 1st on occasion.


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Old
11-27-2009, 08:22 PM
  #12
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Defense:

First pair = edge New Jersey

Bobby Orr > Red Kelly, by a good margin (no offense to Kelly who was a good pick where he was selected).

Serge Savard > Guy Lapointe. Interested comparing the teammates. For what it's worth, Savard is ranked on both the THN Top 100 list and the last completed HOH top 100 list, whereas Lapointe is not. Either way, I think Savard's skillset lends itself to being a #2 better than Lapointe. He's better defensively and might be the best defenseman all-time at adapting his game to complement his partner. Lapointe spent his prime as a 2nd pairing/PP QB defenseman.

And I'll repeat what I said during the assassination: I don't know if Kelly and Lapointe would have the best chemistry. Both were used to being the puck carrier on their pairing, so it's uncertain how one or both would adapt to not being the primary puck carrier. Both would good defensively (especially Kelly), but it seems like a waste of one of their talents to have him sit back covering for the other guy.

____

Second pair = edge NJ.

Mike Grant seems to be playing the same role as Art Ross. (2nd pairing puck carrier). We know very little about Grant. Statistically, it would appear that Ross is better offensively, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. We have more quotes about Ross's intangibles and play without the puck, so he is likely the better all-round player. Unless you have info on Grant that I don't have, this has to be considered a likely edge to Ross.

Goldham and Baun are both defensive defensemen who played big roles on dynasties. But I think Goldham was a bit better. I've seen Goldham described as the perfect example of a guy who is one level below HOF level. He has a 2nd team AS selection; Baun has none. Statistically, Goldham provided more offense. He was 7th in assists among defensemen over the course of his career (41-56). Baun was 18th among defensemen in assists over the course of his career (56-72).

Bottom pairing = edge NJ.

Again, hard to compare Soviets to NHLers, but Viktor Kuzkin was more important and stood out more to the Soviets than Tomas Jonsson did to the Islanders. Kuzkin was a member of the first generation of Soviets to have top end talent that could skate with the NHL (he was towards the end of his career in 72).

Bob Turner was a defensive defenseman for the 50s Canadians. But I don't think he was a difference maker individually. George McNamara is in the HOF, so he likely was a difference maker. Hard to compare defensive defensemen from different eras, but I think that, at worst, McNamara is Turner's equal, and that he may very well have been better.

Regardless of what you think of Turner/McNamara, I think that Kuzkin is above Johnsson enough to give the Swamp Devils the edge in third pairings.

In summary, every one of NJ's defensemen 1-6 is at least as good as Kenora's counterpart; and some have clear edges over Kenora.

Orr >> Kelly
Savard > Lapointe
Ross >= Grant (but probably >)
Goldham > Baun
Kuzkin >> Jonnson
McNamara >= Turner

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11-27-2009, 08:30 PM
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Goaltending: Edge NJ.

Compare Belfour to his contemporary, Patrick Roy. Roy is in the Top 3-4 of almost everyone, and some have him as #1 all time. Belfour and Roy basically peaked at exactly the same time and both were often in winning environments, so they are easy to compare. Look at Belfour's resume and statistics, or just remember the way he played the game. He's obviously behind Roy. But was he really that far behind?

If you believe playoff clutchness can be measured by stats, this will interest you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
[*]Overall, Hasek had a better clutch playoff record than Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, and Joseph from 1994 to 2008. Only Belfour was close.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=22307246&postcount=5

Unless papershoes turns up something about Connel that we don't know about, most of us consider him in the bottom tier of the draft.

Belfour will play every playoff game for NJ. Will Connel do the same for Kenora?

Coaching: Edge Kenora.

Not much to say here. Tommy Ivan is widely considered one of the best coaches of all time, and it's well deserved.

Bob Johnson is probably an average coach in this draft. I do think that he is the perfect fit for an offensive-minded team built around a generational talent. He is the guy who taught a group of talented underachievers in Pittsburgh how to be champions.

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11-27-2009, 08:41 PM
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don't forget, we've moved into the playoffs now so, things will be slightly different...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
On a line by line breakdown, this is how I see the teams:

Top line = close. Slight offensive edge to New Jersey, Bigger defensive edge to Kenora.

I'm going to compare players out of position, because it's clear who the best, 2nd best, and 3rd best guy on each line is.

I personally have Joe Malone as better than Dickie Moore, and the last HOH Top 100 list agrees. Malone was the 2nd best goal scorer and 3rd best offensive player of hockey's first half century (the pre-Morenz era), whereas Moore had competition as 3rd best scorer on his own (super stacked) team. Moore's intangibles and all-round game make them closer overall, and they might be "even" overall. Maybe. But in terms of pure scoring, I think Malone beats Moore.
in the playoffs, moore has an edge over malone - he's won more cups and, played a larger role on his cup winners then malone. malone led the playoffs in points once while dickie led the playoffs twice (1954, 1959). when it comes to tight-checking games, intangibles mean quite a bit...

Quote:
Cournoyer = Iginla. Completely different styles, but I think they should be ranked fairly close to each other. Iginla has more individual success, a higher statistical peak, and brings much more to the table physically. Cournoyer has much more team success as a star on his team (but never THE star), and that does matter. Neither was on the last completed HOH Top 100 list, but both would certainly be in the 101-150 range.
again, we have moved into the playoffs - iginla had that one absolutely fantastic year (where, i agree with you, would have won the smythe had calgary won) - however, beyond that, he hasn't done much else. cournoyer on the other hand has been a significant member, and captain, of multiple cup-winning teams. he has a conn smythe to his name. this may be equal in the regular season, but cournoyer has a distinct advantage in the playoffs.

Quote:
Primeau = Kariya offensively. Primeau led the league in assists 3 times, playing between two Top 100 players. But this is a case where seperating goals and assists makes Primeau look better offensively than he actually was (at least in comparison to a more balanced scorer). If we look at their overall production, Primeau was Top 10 in scoring 3 Times (2, 2, 6), while Kariya was Top 10 4 times (3, 3, 4, 7) playing in a much deeper era. I'd be tempted to give the overall offensive edge to Kariya, but I think they are close enough that I'll just call it a wash. Primeau obviously brings more to the table defensively.
pretty good analysis. i think primeau's been better in the playoffs but, i agree with your assessment.

Quote:
Overall, I think the offense of my first line is a bit better, mainly because I think Joe Malone is the best purely offensive player on either line.
but, as i mentioned, my team has had much more success in the postseason - this should definitely add the advantage to kenora here. and, in tight playoff games, having strong defensive players on every line is a huge bonus...


_____
Quote:
Second line = Huge advantage for New Jersey.

In short, Maltsev is the best secondary scorer on either team by a wide margin. It's impossible to directly compare old Soviets to NHLers, but if you look at Maltsev's profile, you'll see that it's quite comparable to contemporaries Kharlamov and Mikhailov (taking into account that Maltsev was never part of a super unit on the Red Army team).

Markus Naslund and Ken Hodge both had relatively short primes. However, both of their primes were longer than the career of Frank McGee, who is the best player on Kenora's second line.

Westwick and Lambert don't seem to provide much offensively in an all-time context. I don't think I'd want either one on a line that is counted on to score in this format, especially a line centered by a guy who most consider a below average second liner.
i couldn't disagree with the "huge disadvantage" more - primarily because i think frank mcgee is one of the most underrated forwards in the atd.

mcgee was considered one of the greatest goal-scorers in the early years. with that said, he ramped up his game even more in the stanley cup - scoring 14 goals in one game! not sure why ovechkin gets the pass based on 4 years of work (and, as a first-liner) but mcgee is considered a borderline second liner...

i agree that lambert and westwick are less then ideal as second liners but, lambert is there merely to provide a physical presence and corner-work, while westwick is there for his defence, offence, and chemistry with mcgee.

markus naslund has been absolutely terrible come playoff time. ken hodge is pretty solid. and, as you've said, maltsev is definitely the best scorer on either second line.

however, considering all three of my players are strong defensively, i don't believe the swamp devils advantage is that large.

___
Quote:
Third/checking line = Close. Moderate offensive edge to New Jersey. Moderate defensive edge to Kenora.

Kenora has one of the best pure checking lines in the draft. Provost is the best defensive RW of all time, and Puflord is a great defensive LW. They are centered by Sanderson, who was a pretty good two-way guy himself.

However, I'm not sure if the Swamp Devils are the type of team Kenora's checking line matches up well against. FIrst of all, NJ has 4 lines and a defenseman on each pairing who can score. This makes NJ a bad matchup for a team like Kenora that depends heavily on a checking line. A team with an elite first line but less scoring depth would have been a better matchup for Kenora.
we don't depend heavily on one checking line - since every one of our lines is constructed with strong two-way forwards (with the exception of cournoyer)

Quote:
Second, NJ's offense flows primarily from its defensemen (in particular Orr and Ross) and its centers (particularly Malone and Maltsev). The fact that NJ's attack does not depend heavily on its wings lessens the impact of Provost and Pulford. And while Sanderson is a worthy checking center in this format, he isn't anything special in an all-time sense.

NJ's checking line isn't quite as good defensively as Kenora's, but I think their offensive edge evens things out. First of all, the defensive gap isn't that great. Herbie Lewis is a HOFer, primarily for his defensive play (something that even Provost cannot say... yet). His bio calls him the fastest player of his era, so he should be able to keep up with the Cournoyer when they play against each other. And Mosdell won multiple Stanley Cups as the checking center used by a linematching coach. Doan is the weakest member of the third line, but is a regular for Team Canada, where he plays a much more defensive role than he does in Phoenix.

Mosdell is the best offensive player on either checking unit. When he was allowed to play more offense due to injuries to Elmer Lach, he was good enough to be a First Team and Second Team All Star in back to back years. When he was a 2nd team all star, he was 3rd in the league in even-strength points, just 3 behind the leader (Richard) and ahead of the Art Ross winner (Geoffrion). Overall, Mosdell was Top 10 in goals twice and Lewis was 4th in assists twice. Doan gives the line a physical presence, without being a liability at either end of the rink.

The only player on Kenora who finished Top 10 in any offensive category is Provost. I think the offensive gap that New Jersey's 3rd line has on Kenora's makes up for the small defensive gap between the two. It might even more than make up for the gap.
claude provost finished top-10 in goals, assists, and points twice (both of which were higher finishes then mosdell). pulford also finished top-10 in goals twice. so, i would consider the offensive edge to be even...
____

[quote]4th lines are 4th lines. Papershoes hasn't yet announced how he plans on using Kenora's 4th line, so I'll refrain from commenting on his line, other than to say that my line provides a lot more scoring his, particularly from Smith and McKenzie.

Quote:
NJ's 4th line is talented enough to take the occasional shift against Kenora's top line, especially early in the game. Nothing sets the tone of the game like Pie McKenzie taking shots at Dickie Moore, while Moore's linemates aren't the type to be able to defend him. Ryan Walter can drop the gloves if need be, but if I need someone who loves to drop the gloves, I can always insert Bridgman into the lineup. However, I don't think it will be necessary with this matchup.
we'll take a match-up of your fourth line against our first line anytime. don't forget, we can always insert ferguson into the line-up.

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11-27-2009, 08:50 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Goaltending: Edge NJ.

Compare Belfour to his contemporary, Patrick Roy. Roy is in the Top 3-4 of almost everyone, and some have him as #1 all time. Belfour and Roy basically peaked at exactly the same time and both were often in winning environments, so they are easy to compare. Look at Belfour's resume and statistics, or just remember the way he played the game. He's obviously behind Roy. But was he really that far behind?

If you believe playoff clutchness can be measured by stats, this will interest you:



http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=22307246&postcount=5

Unless papershoes turns up something about Connel that we don't know about, most of us consider him in the bottom tier of the draft.

Belfour will play every playoff game for NJ. Will Connel do the same for Kenora?
i agree with your assessment that belfour has the edge. certainly no questions there. but, though i don't think connell will steal any games, he certainly won't lose them either.

two stanley cups, two shutouts in each cup-run, solid gaa in both cup-runs, and a retro conn smythe.

also, there is no question he'll play every game - 1st in games played 4x, 2nd 3x.

Quote:
Coaching: Edge Kenora.

Not much to say here. Tommy Ivan is widely considered one of the best coaches of all time, and it's well deserved.

Bob Johnson is probably an average coach in this draft. I do think that he is the perfect fit for an offensive-minded team built around a generational talent. He is the guy who taught a group of talented underachievers in Pittsburgh how to be champions.
i think badger bob is a fantastic coach, and perfectly suited for your team. but, i agree, tommy ivan has the edge.


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11-27-2009, 09:52 PM
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scoring 14 goals in one game! not sure why ovechkin gets the pass based on 4 years of work (and, as a first-liner) but mcgee is considered a borderline second liner...
Let's keep in mind that the 14 goals in one game, although impressive, came against what was really a very weak team who really shouldn't have challenged the Silver seven. The team just really wasn't near that level.

Ovechkin plays LW, the least depthful forward position, while McGee plays centre, the most depthful forward position. Ovechkin also likely gets the competition edge as well. We also tend to know somewhat more abnout the Ovechkin dominance; would McGee have won 2 harts?

Not that McGee isn't a great player (Had him before), or not somewhat underrated.

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11-27-2009, 09:55 PM
  #17
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I'm cherrypicking what I'm responding to. No need to quote parts of your post where you agree with me, after all. I apologize if I miss anything important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
don't forget, we've moved into the playoffs now so, things will be slightly different...

in the playoffs, moore has an edge over malone - he's won more cups and, played a larger role on his cup winners then malone. malone led the playoffs in points once while dickie led the playoffs twice (1954, 1959). when it comes to tight-checking games, intangibles mean quite a bit...
Malone was the captain and undisputed best player of back to back Stanley Cup champions. I would imagine he played a bigger role on those Cup winners than the guy playing with Harvey, Beliveau, Plante, Geoffrion, and Richards x 2.

As I said, Malone was captain of two Cup winners, so he had to have intangibles. Sadly, the details have been lost to the sands of time.

Malone didn't lead the playoffs in scoring twice. He was 1st once and 2nd once in the Bulldog's only 2 Cups in their existence. Not bad. The Bulldogs were not a powerhouse like the Canadiens of... most eras, so Malone didn't get nearly as many chances as Moore.


Quote:
again, we have moved into the playoffs - iginla had that one absolutely fantastic year (where, i agree with you, would have won the smythe had calgary won) - however, beyond that, he hasn't done much else. cournoyer on the other hand has been a significant member, and captain, of multiple cup-winning teams. he has a conn smythe to his name. this may be equal in the regular season, but cournoyer has a distinct advantage in the playoffs.
A more accurate statement is "Iginla might blow Cournoyer away in the regular season, but Cournoyer's playoffs might close the gap (depending on how much credit you want to give Cournoyer and how much you want to give his stacked team).

Iginla is a 3 Time 1st Team All Star, 1 Time 2nd Team, 1 Pearson trophy, 3 Time Hart finalist. Cournoyer has 4 2nd Team All Star selections. Highest Hart finish was 9th.

Iginla finished 1, 1, 3, 4 in goals and 1, 3, 8 in points, playing with nobodies. Cournoyer has 4, 6, 7, 7, 8, 9 in goals (playing with elite centermen) and only 6, 8 in points.

Iginla was better individually in the playoffs, as well. He has averaged .52 goals per game and .91 points per game in the playoffs. Cournoyer averaged .44 goals per game and .87 points per game in the playoffs. This despite the fact that Cournoyer played on a stacked team in a significantly higher scoring era. Are you sure that Cournoyer has the advantage in the playoffs?

I give Cournoyer "bonus points" for being a key player on all those Cup champions,* but there's a limit to how much credit you can give a secondary star for his team winning a team trophy.

*or at least a key player after he became more than a PP specialist.

Quote:
but, as i mentioned, my team has had much more success in the postseason - this should definitely add the advantage to kenora here. and, in tight playoff games, having strong defensive players on every line is a huge bonus...
Your team has lots of role players who happened to play to play on dynasties, so I guess that is some form of success. I doubt Kirk Maltby would trade all of his Cups for Alexander Oveckin's individual awards. But on the other hand, Team Canada would never select Ken Daneyko over Ray Bourque just because Daneyko has more Cups.

As for the defensive players on every line, I agree. It's the biggest strength of your team. You'll need it to compensate for your defensemen who are good, but not as good as mine.

Quote:
i couldn't disagree with the "huge disadvantage" more - primarily because i think frank mcgee is one of the most underrated forwards in the atd.

mcgee was considered one of the greatest goal-scorers in the early years. with that said, he ramped up his game even more in the stanley cup - scoring 14 goals in one game! not sure why ovechkin gets the pass based on 4 years of work (and, as a first-liner) but mcgee is considered a borderline second liner...
In 1905! He scored 14 goals in a 22-2 victory! That's like calling a Canadian 1st liner clutch for scoring 14 goals against Japan.

Nitpicking aside, I buy McGee as a legit 2nd line center. But he's no Maltsev.

Quote:
markus naslund has been absolutely terrible come playoff time.
This is a common misperception. While Naslund will never be accused of being a clutch player (which is why he's a 2nd liner and not a 1st liner in this thing), he only flopped in the playoffs once - in his first try in the playoffs as his team's top threat. He was great in the other 2 playoffs he played in during his prime.

From my bio:

Quote:
5 goals, 9 assists, 14 points (all leading his team) in 14 playoff games in 2003.

2 goals, 7 assists, 9 points in 7 playoff games in 2004. 2nd place on his team had 5 points.

3rd best playoff points-per-game average from 2003-04, ahead of Peter Forsberg.

(He was admittedly over his head in the playoffs in 2002, but was very good the following two seasons, despite the fact that he became effectively the only offensive threat on his team).
Okay, maybe Naslund was a failure as a captain or something. But he's a second liner in this thing. He doesn't have to lead anyone anywhere. He just has to put up points, which is something he did in 2 of 3 playoffs in his prime.

Quote:
however, considering all three of my players are strong defensively, i don't believe the swamp devils advantage is that large.
They might be able to limit the damage, somewhat, but they won't be able to do much to counteract it.


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11-27-2009, 09:59 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post

claude provost finished top-10 in goals, assists, and points twice (both of which were higher finishes then mosdell). pulford also finished top-10 in goals twice. so, i would consider the offensive edge to be even...
What kind of powerplay time did Provost get when he finished higher than Mosdell in points?

I apologize for missing Pulfords two Top 10 finishes in goals (I think I missed it because he never top 10 in points). He's still behind Mosdell and Lewis (and Provost) in offensive ability in my mind.

Your third line probably is a bit better than mine. But I still believe mine is a bit better at the counterattack.


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11-27-2009, 10:47 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Let's keep in mind that the 14 goals in one game, although impressive, came against what was really a very weak team who really shouldn't have challenged the Silver seven. The team just really wasn't near that level.

Ovechkin plays LW, the least depthful forward position, while McGee plays centre, the most depthful forward position. Ovechkin also likely gets the competition edge as well. We also tend to know somewhat more abnout the Ovechkin dominance; would McGee have won 2 harts?

Not that McGee isn't a great player (Had him before), or not somewhat underrated.
according to "ultimate hockey", mcgee would have won two retro harts (take it for what it's worth).

interestingly, mike grant and harry trihey were also in line to win two harts each...

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11-27-2009, 10:47 PM
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What kind of powerplay time did Provost get when he finished higher than Mosdell in points?
In 1961-62, Provost was 26-22-48 at ES, 5-6-11 on the PP, and 2-0-2 shorthanded. He was t-3rd in ESG, 8th in ES points, and t-3rd in SHG.

In 1964-65, Provost was 16-26-42 at ES, 11-10-21 on the PP, and 0-0-0 shorthanded. He was t-12 in ESG, t-6 in ES points, 3rd in PPG, and t-8th in PP points.

Provost was also 6th in ES points in 1957-58, and 5th in ES points in 1965-66. He scored very few power play points in those years, so his totals weren't as high.

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11-27-2009, 10:49 PM
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In sum:

Why NJ should win:

1. Better defensemen at every position 1-6.
2. Better secondary scoring throughout the lineup (especially the 2nd line).
3. Better goaltending.

Why Kenora might win:

1. Better defensive play from their forwards on all corresponding lines.
2. More playoff experience, particularly among the roleplayers.
3. Tommy Ivan


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11-27-2009, 11:01 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
A more accurate statement is "Iginla might blow Cournoyer away in the regular season, but Cournoyer's playoffs might close the gap (depending on how much credit you want to give Cournoyer and how much you want to give his stacked team).

Iginla is a 3 Time 1st Team All Star, 1 Time 2nd Team, 1 Pearson trophy, 3 Time Hart finalist. Cournoyer has 4 2nd Team All Star selections. Highest Hart finish was 9th.

Iginla finished 1, 1, 3, 4 in goals and 1, 3, 8 in points, playing with nobodies. Cournoyer has 4, 6, 7, 7, 8, 9 in goals (playing with elite centermen) and only 6, 8 in points.

Iginla was better individually in the playoffs, as well. He has averaged .52 goals per game and .91 points per game in the playoffs. Cournoyer averaged .44 goals per game and .87 points per game in the playoffs. This despite the fact that Cournoyer played on a stacked team in a significantly higher scoring era. Are you sure that Cournoyer has the advantage in the playoffs?

I give Cournoyer "bonus points" for being a key player on all those Cup champions,* but there's a limit to how much credit you can give a secondary star for his team winning a team trophy.

*or at least a key player after he became more than a PP specialist.
ppg is a nice stat but, if you can't advance beyond the first round...
i know cournoyer was part of a stacked team but, he was hardly a bit part / secondary star.

playoffs of significance:

iginla
2004 - 3rd in points, 1st on team

cournoyer
1968 - 4th in points, 1st on team
1969 - 7th in points, 3rd on team - tied 1st playoff gwg
1971 - 3rd in points, 2nd on team
1973 - 1st in pionts, 1st on team - 1st in goals, 1st in gwg, conn smythe

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11-27-2009, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
ppg is a nice stat but, if you can't advance beyond the first round...
i know cournoyer was part of a stacked team but, he was hardly a bit part / secondary star.

playoffs of significance:

iginla
2004 - 3rd in points, 1st on team

cournoyer
1968 - 4th in points, 1st on team
1969 - 7th in points, 3rd on team - tied 1st playoff gwg
1971 - 3rd in points, 2nd on team
1973 - 1st in pionts, 1st on team - 1st in goals, 1st in gwg, conn smythe
Iginla led his team in playoff scoring 4 out of 5 years and was 1 point behind the team lead in the 5th year.

And for what it's worth, he was Canada's top RW when the nation finally won gold in 2002. Counter argument - but Canada was so stacked! Counter-counter - so were the Canadiens of the era!

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11-27-2009, 11:18 PM
  #24
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Malone was the captain and undisputed best player of back to back Stanley Cup champions. I would imagine he played a bigger role on those Cup winners than the guy playing with Harvey, Beliveau, Plante, Geoffrion, and Richards x 2.

As I said, Malone was captain of two Cup winners, so he had to have intangibles. Sadly, the details have been lost to the sands of time.

Malone didn't lead the playoffs in scoring twice. He was 1st once and 2nd once in the Bulldog's only 2 Cups in their existence. Not bad. The Bulldogs were not a powerhouse like the Canadiens of... most eras, so Malone didn't get nearly as many chances as Moore.
i'm certainly not questioning malone as a player however, when it comes to the playoffs, i believe dickie moore is quite far ahead.

malone may have led the bulldogs but, he certainly didn't have slugs for teammates - paddy moran, joe hall, tommy smith, russell crawford (all hall of famers).

i don't think we can penalize dickie moore for playing with great linemates. either way, he enjoyed a large amount of success...

playoffs of significance
1954 - 1st in points, 1st on team - 1st in goals, 2nd on team
1957 - 4th in pionts, 4th on team - 2nd in assists
1959 - 1st in points, 1st on team - 1st in assists
1960 - 4th in points, 3rd on team - 1st in goals
1968 - 2nd in points, 1st on team - 2nd in goals for ST.LOUIS

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11-27-2009, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
i'm certainly not questioning malone as a player however, when it comes to the playoffs, i believe dickie moore is quite far ahead.

malone may have led the bulldogs but, he certainly didn't have slugs for teammates - paddy moran, joe hall, tommy smith, russell crawford (all hall of famers).

i don't think we can penalize dickie moore for playing with great linemates. either way, he enjoyed a large amount of success...

playoffs of significance
1954 - 1st in points, 1st on team - 1st in goals, 2nd on team
1957 - 4th in pionts, 4th on team - 2nd in assists
1959 - 1st in points, 1st on team - 1st in assists
1960 - 4th in points, 3rd on team - 1st in goals
1968 - 2nd in points, 1st on team - 2nd in goals for ST.LOUIS
For all those HOFers, the Bulldogs only made the playoffs twice, and Malone was Top 2 in playoff scoring both times. He was also 3rd in playoff scoring in 1918, playing second fiddle to Lalonde. Given their different situations (era and teammates), I don't see how that is worse than Moore.

Anyway, this is a much more compelling case for Moore IMO than just counting the number of Cups he won.

One thing about the St. Louis run - while a very impressive run for a player who had missed so much time with injuries after the 50s dynasty, we need to keep in mind that the 1968 expansion teams were all in one conference, so Dickie Moore had garbage teams to beat up on in the first 2 rounds. The top playoff scorer was actually a Minnesota North Star. Moore was tied with 2 other players (Cournoyer on the winning Canadiens and another North Star) for 2nd. What a strange season!

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