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ATD#12, Foster Hewitt Quarterfinals. Trail Smoke Eaters(2) vs. Toronto Maple Leafs(7)

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Old
11-28-2009, 02:15 AM
  #26
Leafs Forever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
lalonde played 98 career nhl games

and 103 nha games

Messier endured through 1756 nhl games

and 56 wha games plus 236 nhl playoff games

who is greater

There is no doubt in my mind!!!

Lalonde's career game wise doesn't compare at all
So now a player's worth is evaluated by how many games he played? All modern stars are better than almost all older ones then. And does that mean Mark Messier is better than Bobby orr too?

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11-28-2009, 02:43 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
So now a player's worth is evaluated by how many games he played? All modern stars are better than almost all older ones then. And does that mean Mark Messier is better than Bobby orr too?
apples and oranges

i am saying messiers career was great for a longer period of time he has 6 cups when it was much harder to win them

since lalonde played so little in a time of much loafing during game play i value his career lower then messier aand when you consider how little he played his value plummets!

while the moose playing stock rises

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11-28-2009, 02:52 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
apples and oranges

i am saying messiers career was great for a longer period of time he has 6 cups when it was much harder to win them

since lalonde played so little in a time of much loafing during game play i value his career lower then messier aand when you consider how little he played his value plummets!

while the moose playing stock rises
Not exactly. In that post, it was all about how games played made Messier better. The seasons were MUCH shoter back then. Is that Lalonde's fault?

What do you mean loafing during game play exactly?

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11-28-2009, 02:56 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Not exactly. In that post, it was all about how games played made Messier better. The seasons were MUCH shoter back then. Is that Lalonde's fault?

What do you mean loafing during game play exactly?
A player who played at the same time as Lalond

Joe Malone was quoted as saying during his career players would loaf around when not directly involved in the play

Not exactly top league level imo

Lalonde should be a spare part nothing else!

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11-28-2009, 03:13 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
A player who played at the same time as Lalond

Joe Malone was quoted as saying during his career players would loaf around when not directly involved in the play

Not exactly top league level imo

Lalonde should be a spare part nothing else!
Source?

Care to name a better league at the time? Are we going to call everyone who played in the era bad now? Lalonde was the best player in the league. If he's a spare part, so is everyone who played in the same league. When you are discounting an era of hockey, you are going against what the ATD is about.

You think Lalonde should be a spare?

In the interests of ending the exaggerations, a comparison in consistency in goalscoring and playmaking to show why some think Lalonde better.

Note, these adjust for the split league era Lalonde played in.

Top 2 finishes- Top 5 finishes- Top 10 finishes- Top 15 finishes- Top 20 finishes

Goalscoring:
Lalonde: 3-9-10-11-11
Messier: 0-0-4-5-5

Playmaking:
Lalonde: 2-3-3-6-8
Messier: 1-3-6-9-10

Total:
Lalonde: 5-12-13-17-19
Messier: 1-3-10-14-15

Now, although Messier played against tougher competition, I don't think it's going to make up that gap, personally.

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Old
11-28-2009, 03:15 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
no offense to 70s but i do not have a internet connection please let shawn argue or promote his team and stay in your own thread

I cannot be double teamed and do not deserve to be

My team is excellent!

I do not want your side track chats in my draft thread!!!!

I want the chat here to be focused on our teams so please go run up your posts tally elsewhere


__________________________________________________ ____________________

I recall games when stevens played 30 min a game when their was an important game to be played maybe as he aged those minutes came down somewhat I even recall him havign a 40 minute game where he hardly came off the ice and he excelled with the extra work
We all have a right to be here, so kindly sit and spin.

The threads would be mighty boring without other people piping in. I am not going to stand by idly while you spout untruths. Like the above, for example. Scott Stevens never averaged 30 minutes a game in real life. He averaged 22-24. He won't play 30 minutes here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
you can definitely add stevens to that list I have seen all those players personally and his numbers would compare well he also played longer then all those players at a high level right till the end

Fetisov wasn't half the dman that stevens was from age 28 and above amd before that he didnt play

robinson faded offensiveley as did stevens but stevens was on a defensive team in nj while robinson finished things out on the high scoring kings team

lidstorm snt the physical player that the rest are so i would drop him down that list of great dman

Potvin had a shorter career then most of those payers so who knwos how his career would had looked like compred to his peers on this list who all played nearly 20 yrs each

here is the list in order of greatness imo

Bourque, Potvin, Robinson, Stevens , Chelios, Lidstrom and then Fetisov


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
A player who played at the same time as Lalond

Joe Malone was quoted as saying during his career players would loaf around when not directly involved in the play

Not exactly top league level imo

Lalonde should be a spare part nothing else!


Why are you so interested in the Trail? So you can learn about all these lazy players? LOL

Lalonde actually was known for lambasting lazy teammates.

You would think after 11 drafts you would have learned something. Nope... same old LL.

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Old
11-28-2009, 03:17 AM
  #32
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loafing during lalondes and Malone's time is well known

Malone gave a interview about the game and why he decided to retire and howie morenz was mentioned as was he and his teammates loafing when play did not include them

sounds like pond hockey

I want the trail of hockey so i have that as a refernce as I want info on all players


Funny how all my bios are based on actual print just reworded for this context where you make up things and use bravdo over anything nelse


my burn with you is you jumped in b4 my opponent gm did and i say foul to that!

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11-28-2009, 03:27 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
loafing during lalondes and Malone's time is well known

Malone gave a interview about the game and why he decided to retire and howie morenz was mentioned as was he and his teammates loafing when play did not include them

sounds like pond hockey

I want the trail of hockey so i have that as a refernce as I want info on all players


Funny how all my bios are based on actual print just reworded for this context where you make up things and use bravdo over anything nelse


my burn with you is you jumped in b4 my opponent gm did and i say foul to that!
Can I have a quote with a source, please? Where did you hear this?

Again, do you want to discount an entire era of hockey? Fact is, everyone accepts these guys were great in their time, and in the interests of appreciating the game, will accept their greatness. Why can't you?

But why do you want info on all the players of that era if apparently they were all loafing around, playing pond hockey, and are apparently only worth drafting as spare parts?

We don't make thigns up. We take direct quotes as well, with some rewording here and there, and use stats to try and bridge the gap and not just pick modern players all the time.

As seventies said, it's boring without opinions from others. And not we remaing because of your constant outlandish statements.

I'll dig up quotes in the morning saying how great some of these bests were if you keep spewing this. I really should go to bed.

Just a note: Do you know what the point of the ATD is? Why we draft these guys so high? Do you know why we look at things relatively? Why don't you explain Lalonde's rankings in that list you brought up earlier if he should just be a spare part in this.

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Old
11-28-2009, 03:29 AM
  #34
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there will be greats who can transcend time laonde may be one but its a hard call consdering how hard and how many games modern players had to endure


My course for the loafing is a hockey news one be it the magazine last interview with him in the 1960's just before he died

or the top 100 players of all tiem book

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11-28-2009, 03:34 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
there will be greats who can transcend time laonde may be one but its a hard call consdering how hard and how many games modern players had to endure


My course for the loafing is a hockey news one be it the magazine last interview with him in the 1960's just before he died

or the top 100 players of all tiem book
Again, the players didn't decide the schedule back then. We are trying to look at things relatively; or we will all be drafting modern players first.

Don't got either. Wouldn't mind seeing the whole thing typed out and wrapped in quotes though. Sounds interesting; do share. And I will respond tomorrow with quotes highlighting how great the stars back then were.

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11-28-2009, 03:37 AM
  #36
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it doesn't matter if they played 20 or 30 games back then its the fact that they did! With a week between them sometimes

if ypu want whole articles types out i am not your man (I got permanent nerve damage in my hand from breaking it in a snowstorm in 2004 )


Ill take a digitall pic and I'll show it to you on fb or something

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11-28-2009, 04:04 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Source?
Malone was asked how players used to be able to play the entire game without rest and he basically said they'd all take it easy when they didn't have the puck or when play slowed down.

If you think about it, it's pretty obvious - how else were they to play all 60 minutes of a hockey game? I would imagine that at the time, the elite players of the day were so much better than the scrubs, this gave each team the best chance to win.

LL's use of the word "loaf" is meant to be condescending, but this is what he's talking about.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-28-2009 at 05:03 AM.
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Old
11-28-2009, 11:26 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
We don't make thigns up. We take direct quotes as well, with some rewording here and there, and use stats to try and bridge the gap and not just pick modern players all the time.
.
^^This.

It's pretty insulting to be accused of "making things up"

I would NEVER make something up. It can all be backed up through the passages I have found in my books.

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Old
11-28-2009, 04:35 PM
  #39
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no malomne used the word loafing or loaf I did not mean that as an insult

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11-28-2009, 07:28 PM
  #40
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it doesn't matter if they played 20 or 30 games back then its the fact that they did! With a week between them sometimes

if ypu want whole articles types out i am not your man (I got permanent nerve damage in my hand from breaking it in a snowstorm in 2004 )


Ill take a digitall pic and I'll show it to you on fb or something
Quote:
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no malomne used the word loafing or loaf I did not mean that as an insult
As noted though, they were often playing the whole game. I'll take the word perhaps, but note this:

We lookg at things in the ATD relativity, and look at how one dominated their era to compare players. Competition played a factor, but not the only one. The players didn't determine the schedule length; that's not there fault. It was shorter in the original six two. We don't hold it against them because A. It's unfair and B. If we did, we wouldn't be doing the ATD in the interests of learning about ALL ERA'S of hockey.

We've all got to the point where we are ready to accept these stars as legitatmate players, great players, in the ATD. Some are skeptical somewhat, but still accept these guys belong. We have to accept players, open our eyes and minds and accept the possibility, if we truly want to learn about the history of the game.

You are not going to convicne anyone, I believe, including myself, Lalonde is not a legitamate first line centre in this. It's unlikely you convince anyone that Lalonde isn't a pretty good first line centre in this. So move on from trying to discredit a whole era of hockey to try and bash one great player who your are facing.

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11-28-2009, 07:47 PM
  #41
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I just wrote up a long post on this series that I lost because I didn't have "click here to remember me" clicked and I got logged out.

That sucks

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11-28-2009, 08:26 PM
  #42
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I just wrote up a long post on this series that I lost because I didn't have "click here to remember me" clicked and I got logged out.

That sucks
It's probably too late, but if you click "back" on your browser a few times, it will usually remember what you had typed out. Then copy and paste into a word processer before logging in.

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11-28-2009, 08:47 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
I just wrote up a long post on this series that I lost because I didn't have "click here to remember me" clicked and I got logged out.

That sucks
dot worry about it president of your fan club has been pestering me in this thread for yah

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11-28-2009, 08:53 PM
  #44
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as far as plauer who have played 200 career games we look at them wit ha skeptical eye wonderign what they could do in a long long season and we slant their expectant curve of sucess because of this

This is why malkin, crosby, and ovechkin were not given top line roles till very recently because they didn't deserve it

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11-28-2009, 08:53 PM
  #45
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We're bashing Lalonde here, now? Wow.

If we're accepting that Jack Walker can become an effective defensive forward in a modern era, then we sure as hell have to accept that old-time players that didn't play 82 game schedules can adjust to the rigors of that format. Especially considering that I'm sure the fitness training back then was a far cry compared to how it is in modern times.

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11-28-2009, 08:54 PM
  #46
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I'll say this.. Messier vs. Lalonde to me is not the key match up on the first line anyway. I agree with those who like Lalonde here but let me also say that Messier is terrific and I give him all the credit in the world.

To me the key is that I have two elite wingers in Busher Jackson and Ace Bailey. LL had Steve Thomas who is a marginal second liner in the ATD in my view... and Mats Sundin who is not a winger at all and is out of place in that spot. To me he should be a 2nd line C in this draft and would be at most a bottom tier first line C. As a winger? To me it's not a good fit. I don't know how well the line would work.

Second line is probably more physicla than mine for sure, and Leclair and Lindros are a good fit... but Bondra? Sticks out like a soar thumb to me on that line. Plus he and Imlach would not get along. On the other hand my whole second unit is made up of players from the same era of the Czech national team. The skill starts with big Ned who is the top second line player in this series IMO but everyone who is with him on that line is a very accomplished international star.

I think I have the edge in top D but it's not huge. Piloteis better overall and was a big hitter, but probably not quite as physical as Stevens. I also think Housley and Pilote are the best offensive D in the series and they're both on my team. In goal I think it's a wash. Regular season Bower gets the edge, in the playoffs I'd say Parent but really it's probably a wash.

I also think the third line is a big edge for me. Luce and Zetterberg are elite third liners who can do it all at both ends of the ice. Schmaultz fits in perfectly and brings an edge to the line. I also think Kilrea is the best player on either 4th line... I'm happy with what Reay and Peplinksi bring as well.

Anyhow I think the Leafs are a strong entry, but I think my team has more balance and is more playoff ready. Good luck to LL.

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11-28-2009, 08:57 PM
  #47
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Questioning how well players from that era would play because of how many games they played is ridiculous. It's apples to oranges. It's an absurd argument and has no merrit period. I think anyone voting on this series would know that so I'm not gonna spend anytime on it.

Messier is a great player, but Lalonde was the greatest forward of his era. So if we're going to compare to me that's Lalonde's biggest edge in any debate about the two.

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11-28-2009, 08:57 PM
  #48
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I'll say this.. Messier vs. Lalonde to me is not the key match up on the first line anyway. I agree with those who like Lalonde here but let me also say that Messier is terrific and I give him all the credit in the world.

To me the key is that I have two elite wingers in Busher Jackson and Ace Bailey. LL had Steve Thomas who is a marginal second liner in the ATD in my view... and Mats Sundin who is not a winger at all and is out of place in that spot. To me he should be a 2nd line C in this draft and would be at most a bottom tier first line C. As a winger? To me it's not a good fit. I don't know how well the line would work.

Second line is probably more physicla than mine for sure, and Leclair and Lindros are a good fit... but Bondra? Sticks out like a soar thumb to me on that line. Plus he and Imlach would not get along. On the other hand my whole second unit is made up of players from the same era of the Czech national team. The skill starts with big Ned who is the top second line player in this series IMO but everyone who is with him on that line is a very accomplished international star.

I think I have the edge in top D but it's not huge. Piloteis better overall and was a big hitter, but probably not quite as physical as Stevens. I also think Housley and Pilote are the best offensive D in the series and they're both on my team. In goal I think it's a wash. Regular season Bower gets the edge, in the playoffs I'd say Parent but really it's probably a wash.

I also think the third line is a big edge for me. Luce and Zetterberg are elite third liners who can do it all at both ends of the ice. Schmaultz fits in perfectly and brings an edge to the line. I also think Kilrea is the best player on either 4th line... I'm happy with what Reay and Peplinksi bring as well.

Anyhow I think the Leafs are a strong entry, but I think my team has more balance and is more playoff ready. Good luck to LL.
Mats Sundin did play some RW, enough to give him that eligibility I believe.

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11-28-2009, 09:00 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Mats Sundin did play some RW, enough to give him that eligibility I believe.
he played rw to joe sakic in quebec and periodically in toronto and on team sweden when called upon

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11-28-2009, 09:08 PM
  #50
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You can use him there if you want, but it's not where he played 95% of his career and it's not where he was his most effective.

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