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ATD#12, Foster Hewitt Quarterfinals. Trail Smoke Eaters(2) vs. Toronto Maple Leafs(7)

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Old
11-28-2009, 09:20 PM
  #51
Leaf Lander
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Punch Imlach Coach
Captain -Messier
Assistant Captains Scott Stevens Rod Brindamour


#11 Mark Messier- #13 Mats Sundin-#12 Peter Bondra
#10 John LeClair- #88 Eric Lindros -#12 Steve Thomas-
#10 Butch Keeling -#17 Rod Brind'Amour-#12 Andy Hebenton
#27 Shayne Corson-#11 Murray Oliver- #16 Leo Labine

Depth Players
#8 Dutch Hiller LW- #14 Bill Thoms C - #11 Bob MacMillian RW -#12 Ivan Boldriev, C -#26 Ray Sheppard, RW


#2 Red Horner -#4 Scott Stevens
#2 Wally Stanowski- #3 Ken Danyeko
#5 Barry Beck- #15 Tomas Kaberle

Depth Players
#21 Dr. Randy Gregg D #26 Mike Milbury, D #4 Arnie Brown, D

# 1 Johnny Bower
# 32 Kelly Hrudey
# 30 Cam Ward


Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
*So this is where all the big centres went.

Messier's listed as 6'1", although with his power skating, you'd think he was Lindros sized. He's one of those guys who seemed to be bigger than he actually was. Lindros is one of the few guys who might be bigger than what he's listed at. Brind'Amour's a solid 6'1". Oliver's 5'10", which is probably average for this draft. Sundin's a natural centre, and he's 6'3". (A classic case of the listing, 6'5", being hyperbole).

*Steve Thomas on a scoring line. Really? I'm not sold. Solid hockey player. But he's not scoring line material. Especially first line material. I understand the desire to reunite LeClair and Lindros, but this might be one of those times to thumb your nose at chemistry and get the best players in the best roles.
*Incidentally, Thomas, a post-expansion player, was over a point-per-game once in his career. You'd be better off moving Brind'Amour to LW and playing him on a first line, and that's saying a lot, because you'd be losing a wonderful two-way centre for the third line.
*There are some imposing forwards on this team. Touched on Messier and Lindros already. LeClair and Sundin can also be a handful. These guys combine size and skill as well as anyone in the draft.
*Is the third line supposed to be a two-way line? If it is, not sold on Hebenton and Keeling. I know LL loves that new Rangers book, but top 100 all-time on the Rangers isn't the same as the other O6 organizations. If it's a third scoring line, it's okay. But I need to be convinced on defensive skills. Of course, Brind'Amour's terrific defensively. He's been that way almost since the moment he entered the league.
*Labine and Corson are excellent bookends for a grit line. Don't know if Murray Oliver fits that line. But he's LL's boy, so what the hey.
*Dutch Hillier was an iffy pick, but I don't think he'll see the ice. If he does, the Leafs' problems will be confounded: Hillier will be on the ice at some point, and a lot of forwards are injured.
*Defence will be tough to play against. Stevens. Stanowski. Horner might be one of the toughest players in the draft. Daneyko. Beck. Kabarle. This is one of the most fierce blue-line brigades in the draft.
*I often question Kabarle's presence in the draft, but, again, he's one of LL's boys. And this team could have used another defenceman who could move the puck up the ice.
*Stevens is one of my all-time favourite defencemen. I think he usually goes too soon in these drafts, but you knew he probably wouldn't be around when you picked again. Excellent No. 1. A force. A fierce competitor. And one of the most imposing defencemen we'll ever see. Stevens was a great player, but his presence rates among the best we'll ever see as well. You can't discount the value of the footsteps that opponents heard every time he was on the ice.
*There is a drop-off. I think Horner might be better served as a No. 3. Stanowski is a 3/4. Very valuable, though, because he's so quick. And his teammates love him. Beck is a 4/5. Daneyko is a No. 5. At best. Kabarle should be in the call-up draft.
*Bower's the man. For my money, one of the top 10 goalies of all-time. Fantastic in the playoffs. The last line of defence on the team that many view as the greatest defensive team ever. McCool was an oops. Hrudey's an upgrade:


*Imlach's one of the most demanding coaches to ever play the game. He's a task-master. I think he'll like a lot of players on this team. Okay, Stanowski might be a bit too much of an original for him, and Bondra couldn't check his hat. (Yes, it's a bad cliche. But it fits the man from Luck). And Imlach's reunited with Bower.

#11 Mark Messier- #13 Mats Sundin-#12 Peter Bondra-Offensive Line #1 - gifted dominant speedy offensive minded players Messier and Sundin play a good defensive game when called upon while Bondra heats up the ice as one of the fastest foal scoring nhl players of all time


#10 John LeClair- #88 Eric Lindros -#12 Steve Thomas -Offensive line #2 -dominating power forwards plus one of the greatest clutch goal scorer in nhl history combine to make another dominating line. Thomas is a great forechecker and leClair is a powerful force and lindros was simply the best player in tnhe nhl for a time

#10 Butch Keeling -#17 Rod Brind'Amour-#12 Andy Hebenton two way line. All 3 players were known for their 2 way game.Keeling was one of the most underrated players of his daybutch had exception speed . He was a consistent reliable player who could do it all when the game was on the line and that included taking important faceoffs, scoring big goals as well as playing on both scoring and checking lines and with 2 ironmen on the ice with him this may swing the game in our favour or close the door on the opposing attack.


-#27 Shayne Corson-#11 Murray Oliver- #16 Leo Labine
Shut down line- Oliver was a great 2 way pk guy as was corson while labine combined offense toughness and defense and was the inventor of on ice trash talking


Goal scorers Messier, Lindros, Sundin, Bondra, Leclair, Brindamour, Oliver, Thomas, Corson, Labine and Keeling can all put the puck into the net when needed and in some cases whenever they want!!

Bruisers LeClair, Lindros, Messier, Corson, Horner, Sundin, Horner, Brindmour, Beck, Stevens, Labine, Stanowski and Danyeko can all punish you with a devastating monster hits that can change a series momentum

Game Breakers Messier, Sundin, LeClair, Lindros, Bondra, kaberle, Stanowski, Beck, Thomas and Brindamour can dominate with their physical presence or in some cases utilize their speed and wheel with the puck deep creating and capitalizing on their opponents miscues


#2 Red Horner -#4 Scott Stevens (A)
#2 Wally Stanowski- #3 Ken Danyeko
#5 Barry Beck- #15 Tomas Kaberle

My dence is one of the best in the draft again this yr! They are mobile tough and play with an equal mix of grit, mobility, speed which helps while defending and while on the attack helping the offensive excellence of the entire team. I have 2 Hall of Famers on my defensive squad while the others have 14 all star game appearances between them and 11 cups. Kaberle is the only curerent dman in my grooup and he leads the nhl in points by a defenceman and is 2nd only to lidstrom in points by a damn since the lockout.Kaberle is tied with tim horton for career points asa defenceman while in a leafs uniform

Goal scorers Messier, Lindros, Sundin, Bondra, Leclair, Brindamour, Oliver, Thomas, Corson, Labine and Keeling can all put the puck into the net when needed and in some cases whenever they want!!

Bruisers LeClair, Lindros, Messier, Corson, Horner, Sundin, Horner, Brindmour, Beck, Stevens, Labine, Stanowski and Danyeko can all punish you with a devastating monster hits that can change a series momentum

Game Breakers
Messier, Sundin, LeClair, Lindros, Bondra, kaberle, Stanowski, Beck, Thomas and Brindamour can dominate with their physical presence or in some cases utilize their speed and wheel with the puck deep creating and capitalizing on their opponents miscues


# 1 Johnny Bower - china wall
# 32 Kelly Hrudey golden boy
# 30 Cam Ward mr everything

Goaltender position is solid

add to the mix one of the best coaches of all time in imlach and things are looking rather good here in leaf lander


My team will be lead into battle by the greatest leader in a hockey locker room named Mark Messier winner of 6 cups. He will be backed up on the blue line by Scott Stevens and in net by top flight money goaltender Mr Johnny Bower.



My team has a lot of heart. They are highly skilled, strong, feisty fast and determined. They own 34 stanley cup amongst them. I have three generational stars on my team in Stevens, Messier and Lindros.

Every player on my top 2 lines have scored at least 400 goals. All have at least 800+ points

My bottom 2 lines have a lot of grit mixed with and abundance of 2 way skills.

I also have two ironmen in Brindamour Andy Hebenton. I love having a gentlemanly player like Murray Oliver- on a line with the original trash talker leo labine. The offensive from my bottom 2 lines will come from Brindamour Oliver Corson and Hebenton. These players were all well known for their two way game

My players can police themselves rather well. I have a few behemoths in Beck, Horner, Lindros, LeClair, Messier, Stevens and Danyeko

I have a nice mix of snipers and passers with LeClair Bondra who are paired with Lindros. Messier paired with two clutch goal scorers in Sundin and Stumpy Thomas.

My defence is outstanding with very tough fast and highly skilled paired tandems They are very similar to the defensive squads that Imlach Coached the leafs back in the 1960's.They also won 4 Stanley Cups!

My goalies are all Stanley Cup winners with 6 combined Championships

They were lead by a great goalie in bower and he has been reunited with the coach he was very loyal too! Add a great team guy in my back up Kelly Hrudey and you create a winning combination that will be very difficult to defeat


I kept stumpy with sundin till recently for real life chemistry and in my mind thomas can be a poor mans adam graves on any line . Sundin will be mr clutch and messier will be a moose on the ice as he always was!

I figure on my second line with bondra leclair and lindros we wil l always have the puck for a short time till one of the three very dangerous offensive weapons score.

My 3rd line is a two way line with my two ironmen in keeling brindamour along with andy Hebenton. Brindamour is a 2 way player who excelled on the defensive side while still scoring and producing over 1200 career points

Hebenton was a great team player who style was clean and effective. Andy's play would be described as mucker who worked hard every shift no matter the role assigned to him on any given night. He was known as one of the leagues best backcheckers and penalty killers. Those two matched with the speedy keeling who had a knack for scoring timely goals. I like to have a skill on my lines to mix with the grittier players. I juts feel they make my team more effective and ready to play whoever they match up against.

Oliver was a slick playmaking centre who could kill penalties and create chances on the power play. He was blessed with excellent hockey sense and scored over 700 career points on four different teams. The tricky forward was considered one of the best in the league at pulling off the fake pass.A smart, slick, skilled centre with excellent hockey sense. Very good two-way centre and a reliable penalty killer.He is a clean player and many clean players do well in checking and power play roles add him to the grit and two way tenacity of labine and corson and we got a very nice 4th line going,

Piecing together a nice defensive corps is tough imo cause with so many gms stealing all the player that you want. Thanks for the good thoughts on my blue line brigade.


Hrudey is a golden boy and everybody loves him ala curtis joseph so he is a perfect backup imo


Last edited by Leaf Lander: 11-28-2009 at 09:32 PM.
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Old
11-28-2009, 09:22 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
You can use him there if you want, but it's not where he played 95% of his career and it's not where he was his most effective.
I moved him too center a week ago on the roster page

I got no idea where the origional poster got my team the way they do but i changed that on my roster page a week ago

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11-28-2009, 09:41 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
Lalonde should be a spare part nothing else!
LL, you don't actually believe this, do you?

Lalonde is, at worst, one of the top five players from his era. This has been extensively documented in the History of Hockey Top 100 thread.

If you really feel that superstars from previous would be "spare parts" now, why are you participating in an all-time draft?

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11-28-2009, 09:50 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
as far as plauer who have played 200 career games we look at them wit ha skeptical eye wonderign what they could do in a long long season and we slant their expectant curve of sucess because of this

This is why malkin, crosby, and ovechkin were not given top line roles till very recently because they didn't deserve it
We are skepital of them of topic line roles because they played 2-4 seasons.

Lalonde played about 15 seasons in top level leagues I think.

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11-28-2009, 10:00 PM
  #55
Leaf Lander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
We are skepital of them of topic line roles because they played 2-4 seasons.

Lalonde played about 15 seasons in top level leagues I think.
he played 15 seasons of 20- 30 games a yr tops

which is not the same as a 100 plus games yr that messier played

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11-28-2009, 10:03 PM
  #56
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messier top 10 finishes
1982-83 NHL 106 (7)
1986-87 NHL 107 (3)
1987-88 NHL 111 (5)
1989-90 NHL 129 (2)
1991-92 NHL 107 (5)

1994-95 NHL 53 (10)

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11-28-2009, 10:09 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
he played 15 seasons of 20- 30 games a yr tops

which is not the same as a 100 plus games yr that messier played
Why does it even matter? Ok, so he scored 35 goals in 30 games, then, for example. That means he would have scored over 90 goals over an 80 game schedule, based on that pace. Whatever way you look at it doesn't make him any less ridiculously elite.

As far as the argument that he cannot handle an 82 game schedule - that being case, why the hell do we draft these guys in the first place? We'd never draft anyone from O6 and earlier if this was the case. It's all RELATIVE. We assume that they can adjust to an 82 game schedule. It's as simple as that.

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11-28-2009, 10:21 PM
  #58
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I am saying we don't know how they will perform


we are guessing

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11-28-2009, 10:22 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
lalonde played 98 career nhl games

and 103 nha games

Messier endured through 1756 nhl games

and 56 wha games plus 236 nhl playoff games

who is greater

There is no doubt in my mind!!!

Lalonde's career game wise doesn't compare at all
That doesn't look like guessing to me.

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11-28-2009, 10:23 PM
  #60
Leaf Lander
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Leaf Lander 24 posts

shawnmullin 5 posts


I must believe in my team more

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11-28-2009, 10:44 PM
  #61
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I am saying we don't know how they will perform


we are guessing
As jarek, doesn't sound like guessing. And I wouldn't call it guessing as much as assuming. But these assumptons do become reality for the most part for the sake of appreciating all era's and not only drafting from the 70s onward. As someone noted, this is an ALL-TIME DRAFT. Not "Everyone who played in a proffesional league with a 70+ game schedule" draft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
Leaf Lander 24 posts

shawnmullin 5 posts


I must believe in my team more
That is likely more a result of shawnmullin being busy.

And I am not going to give you credit for a number of the posts you made (mainly regarding Lalonde). I give credit for what I find to be good arguements.

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11-28-2009, 11:09 PM
  #62
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I'm not gonna get drawn into a pissing contest.... but it's funny he posts GBC's review saying his D has a strong #1 but is lacking a #2 and the rest of the core is better off as 5th or 6th guys.

It's good you moved Sundin to C but to me Mats is a marginal first line C and Bondra is a very very marginal scoring line winger who would immediately get into a feud with Imlach and likely be stapled to the bench.

Second line is solid but THomas is still to me not enough of a scorer for that role. But it's a solid line. Your third line again is pretty solid, but I have elite third liners IMO in Zetterberg and Luce... and Schmaultz is a perfect fit for them.

Your goaltending might be an edce in some series' but to me here it's not as Parent in the playoffs can match or suprass Bower.

I believe in my team plenty. I just have a ton of work to do during hockey season.

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11-28-2009, 11:19 PM
  #63
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Edited Leafs roster on first post; my apologies for not realising you made changes.

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11-29-2009, 12:02 AM
  #64
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to say parent can match bower is a reach at best
.
Quote:
God Bless Canada
*A drop-off after Pilote as the No. 1 defenceman. I don't see a legit No. 2. I see a trio of capable No. 3s: McCrimmon, Pospisil and Housley. You obviously want Pospisil for the Czech tandem on the blue-line. So that means McCrimmon or Housley for Pilote's partner.


Schmautz brings a lot of toughness and speed to his spot. I think he's better suited to fourth line duty, but he's good for this role. And you have Jim Peplinski for that fourth line role. Not too shabby.
*A drop-off after Pilote as the No. 1 defenceman. I don't see a legit No. 2. I see a trio of capable No. 3s: McCrimmon, Pospisil and Housley. You obviously want Pospisil for the Czech tandem on the blue-line. So that means McCrimmon or Housley for Pilote's partner. You chose wisely.
*Housley's another guy who I think can be exploited by some of the premier lines in the draft. Of course, he's more dangerous offensively than say, Ozolinsh. But he's still a guy I'd want to have out there when my best players are on the ice

bondra the marginal 1st line wiger was in the top 10 in goals 6 times

1994-95 NHL 34 (1)
1995-96 NHL 52 (4)
1996-97 NHL 46 (8)
1997-98 NHL 52 (1)
2000-01 NHL 45 (4)
2001-02 NHL 39 (6)

thomas can forecheck lidnros and leclair will score enough to make him usefull

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11-29-2009, 12:28 AM
  #65
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to say parent can match bower is a reach at best
What makes it a reach? Parent's 2 conn smythes? The two having the same All-star teams? (Bower played in the tougher era, granted, but still)

And although it is often said Parent is mostly about his peak, I believe the s% projects into those years showed otherwise.

As for Bondra, yes he provides lots of goals which is why he gets picked for top-6's. But there's the the other rside of the arguement where I can see wher shawnmullin comes from; what were his points finishes?

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11-29-2009, 12:40 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
What makes it a reach? Parent's 2 conn smythes? The two having the same All-star teams? (Bower played in the tougher era, granted, but still)

And although it is often said Parent is mostly about his peak, I believe the s% projects into those years showed otherwise.

As for Bondra, yes he provides lots of goals which is why he gets picked for top-6's. But there's the the other rside of the arguement where I can see wher shawnmullin comes from; what were his points finishes?
since bondra was a great goal scorer on a relativity weak team with no true #1 centerman till an aged oates showed up

I beleive that slowed his point totals

he was a sniper

put him on a line with messier n sundin and enjoy the magic

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11-29-2009, 04:32 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
dot worry about it president of your fan club has been pestering me in this thread for yah


Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
LL had Steve Thomas who is a marginal second liner in the ATD in my view...
You are being real generous here (you're such a nice guy!) It's not hard to find 64 LWs or RWs with better offensive achievements than Thomas. At all. He should not be on a scoring line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
labine combined offense toughness and defense and was the inventor of on ice trash talking
ORLY? I thought he came after Tony Leswick, not before.


Quote:
Goal scorers Messier, Lindros, Sundin, Bondra, Leclair, Brindamour, Oliver, Thomas, Corson, Labine and Keeling can all put the puck into the net when needed and in some cases whenever they want!!
OMG

Quote:
Game Breakers Messier, Sundin, LeClair, Lindros, Bondra, kaberle, Stanowski, Beck, Thomas and Brindamour can dominate with their physical presence


Quote:

#2 Red Horner -#4 Scott Stevens (A)
#2 Wally Stanowski- #3 Ken Danyeko
#5 Barry Beck- #15 Tomas Kaberle

My dence is one of the best in the draft again this yr!
You've got Kaberle in your starting six. And you've got Daneyko on a second pairing. WTF?

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11-29-2009, 04:35 AM
  #68
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I am saying we don't know how they will perform


we are guessing
EVERYTHING in the ATD is a guess! It's an imaginary league put together with players anywhere from 20 to 140 years old!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
It's good you moved Sundin to C but to me Mats is a marginal first line C
You really are a nice guy. Again, a very generous comment.

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11-29-2009, 08:42 AM
  #69
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Well again I'm not looking to come on here and rip the hell out of him. I could be more cut throat I suppose but to me the teams speak for themselves in many ways.

I'm pretty confident voters will see it that way.

But hey you get in a playoff series against Messier, Stevens, Bower... those are some tough opponents. You never know. But I'm happy to match them with Lalonde, Pilote, Parent and to me far better depth and cohesiveness.

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11-29-2009, 04:48 PM
  #70
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Trail wins the first round best-of-seven series 4-1.

Three stars:
1. Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
2. Pierre Pilote
3. Mark Messier

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11-29-2009, 06:40 PM
  #71
Leaf Lander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
EVERYTHING in the ATD is a guess! It's an imaginary league put together with players anywhere from 20 to 140 years old!

You really are a nice guy. Again, a very generous comment.
ahh thanks for agreeing with me

got my usual first rnd exit and my 1 game win

yeah it isn't even close

so my vote to the most arrogant disrespectful biased gm goes to seventieslord

getting your last digs in after the vote and misleading others with your guessing garbage that you call your thoughts


Last edited by Leaf Lander: 11-29-2009 at 06:55 PM.
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11-29-2009, 06:54 PM
  #72
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ahh thanks for agreeing with me

got my usual first rnd exit and my 1 game win

yeah it isn't even close
If you start accepting the greatness of older players, I think you will definitely improve your teams' performances in the future. You obviously have a lot of passion for this and are extremely proud of the teams you build - all you need to do to become successful is start appreciating guys like Lalonde and start drafting them! I mean, I love guys like Kaberle and Sundin, but they just aren't that great at all in an all-time context. Also, opinions like "Paul Coffey should be a #5 defenseman" don't help much either. Speaking to Paul Coffey specifically, he's not the kinda guy you can build a great defensive pairing around, however, the game breaking talent he brings to the powerplay and especially to a transition game is second only to Bobby Orr, and that's what makes him great. You do have one thing that simply can't be taught or learned - passion, and lots of it. All you need to do is refine your opinions of players and you'll be a top notch GM in the future!

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11-29-2009, 06:56 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
ahh thanks for agreeing with me

got my usual first rnd exit and my 1 game win

yeah it isn't even close

so my vote to the most arrogant disrespectful biased gm goes to seventieslord

getting your last digs in after the vote and misleading others with your guessing garbage that you call your thoughts
Oh, stuff like that doesn't help either. If you didn't notice, a lot of other people have put in their own thoughts in the other series threads after the voting started as well, so seventies isn't the only one.

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11-29-2009, 06:59 PM
  #74
Leaf Lander
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if paul coffey was on my team would had still lost the series

old players are great but we are guessing with them


and when a current great is choosen over oen wit ha longer resumee igice credit where i can I dont guess



All tiem greats drop i my lists of great players because of their small amount of games played

They only get incluided when you consider there greatness for there era

The game wasn't even very evolved in soem cases

Many would not last in atd format
but that's just my sober opinion


and no i do not drink

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11-29-2009, 07:01 PM
  #75
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From what people are saying, it used to be easier to seperate the strong teams from the weak in the ATD. What I see this time is that every team was great, including yours. When every team is great, one single player out of place (like Steve Thomas in the top 6) can be decisive.

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